On the topic of PSIX...

[wraggster]

Oopo admin of PS2Dev posted this in a forum post (http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=5456):

<blockquote>http://psixonline.com/pdr.html

Quote:
Through the process of psix's conception, realisation and progression, it became clear to me that there was little in the way of development support, due to the closed doors on psp development as far as sony were concerned.

The site ps2dev.org is now known the world over for it's assistance to developers in that of the development of the PSP SDK and various other tools, libraries and resources.
It is with this in mind that i start the PDR project, basically with my share of psix pro membership sales (35%), all of it will go back into the psp community, in the form of books, software and when needed, hardware.

How much i end up with, to put back into the psp community is anyones guess, however i
will do my best to provide resources to as many developers as possible.

So, does anyone else appreciate this guy:

1) Charging $10/head for a shell replacement built on our tools.
2) Invoking the 'ps2dev.org' name to help sell it.
3) Never approaching us for permission or even offering any funds?

I certainly don't. How about you?</blockquote>

[Wally]

I dont either Wraggster..

Why have homebrew if someone is gunna charge us for it.

There are already better freeware products than PSIX and he will just USE those people and borrow their code to make his shell better

[felonyr301]

stuff like these shouldnt be charged for period..

[chickenclaws]

This is one of the many reasons sony dont want homebrew cuz damn idiots like these useing there product to make a livin tsk.tsk..tsk that funked up!

[chickenclaws]

his shell was always shit i always like psp oss and Arittlary better

[wraggster]

that pspadvance was as dodgy as they come too

[chickenclaws]

whoa lol dont get started know lol

[grin.ch]

ppl, maybe a little recognition should be given, but maybe not. (I didn't know that about Psix using PSPSDK), but it's the sickest homebrew out there and it's worth the $10. No one can touch this projeKt with anything they've put forth. So now someone wants to complain because of the success (granted, there have been ups and downs as with any release) of one projeKt created out of something which was free to begin with? Don't offer something for free if you really want something in return. Psix had the innovative idea to charge a nominal fee for their produKt and some of it may go back to PSP community, but I would guess they are college students who need extra money anyway. If this were a industry giant, they might not charge, but who cares all that much? Damn.

Psix has pioneered the way OSSs should run. What about PSP-OSS and the others? They just copy Psix anyway... And I had been looking for an OSS to get rid of the monotony of the XMB; this is the one. IMHO, Psix is the s**t and the forums provide a nice environment where everyone is supportive of each other. Everytime I have asked for help, someone (the devs or otherwise have been there to help, no joke).

So the next time someone from PS2dev wants to complain about not getting anything in return, don't offer something for nothing. At the most, maybe a "Thanks" could be in order, but no one owes PS2dev anything. They've made programming easier... So what someone else would've done it if they didn't. There are always other hackers. And PS2dev mentions the fact that this produKt was release w/o their permission? Even mentioning the name PS2dev in their release was basically a way of giving them props anyway.

PS2dev needs to chill out or start charging for their progs.

Peace,
grin.ch

[idapimp]

i do like the way psix is...but at the same time i would never pay for it...but i cant say its wrong to charge a little bit for your hard work. coding that kind of stuff definately isnt easy and takes a long time...if you dont want to pay for it then dont get it, there are other alternatives out there. and as far as this being part of the reason sony is killing homebrew...i strongly doubt it. sony wants to kill homebrew because being able to play downloaded iso's (damn you people who do) is really hurting their sales in a way you couldnt imagine.

[Posty]

ppl, maybe a little recognition should be given, but maybe not. (I didn't know that about Psix using PSPSDK), but it's the sickest homebrew out there and it's worth the $10. No one can touch this projeKt with anything they've put forth. So now someone wants to complain because of the success (granted, there have been ups and downs as with any release) of one projeKt created out of something which was free to begin with? Don't offer something for free if you really want something in return. Psix had the innovative idea to charge a nominal fee for their produKt and some of it may go back to PSP community, but I would guess they are college students who need extra money anyway. If this were a industry giant, they might not charge, but who cares all that much? Damn.

Psix has pioneered the way OSSs should run. What about PSP-OSS and the others? They just copy Psix anyway... And I had been looking for an OSS to get rid of the monotony of the XMB; this is the one. IMHO, Psix is the s**t and the forums provide a nice environment where everyone is supportive of each other. Everytime I have asked for help, someone (the devs or otherwise have been there to help, no joke).

So the next time someone from PS2dev wants to complain about not getting anything in return, don't offer something for nothing. At the most, maybe a "Thanks" could be in order, but no one owes PS2dev anything. They've made programming easier... So what someone else would've done it if they didn't. There are always other hackers. And PS2dev mentions the fact that this produKt was release w/o their permission? Even mentioning the name PS2dev in their release was basically a way of giving them props anyway.

PS2dev needs to chill out or start charging for their progs.

Peace,
grin.ch

I'm sorry, but at PSP-OSS, we never 'copied' PSIX in any way. PSP-OSS started development before fluff even announced that PSIX was on its way back. elz started up the project as a replacement for the XMB, not as a 'PSIX copycat' as you wish to say. And how has PSIX 'pioneered' the way for other shells? To my knowledge, PSP-OSS, Artillery Shell, and some others have accomplished what PSIX has not, and before PSIX was even released.

On a side note, do you even know what 'OSS' refers to? It refers to being an OPEN SOURCE SHELL. Stop refering to PSIX as open source, it isn't. PSIX is simply a shell, not an OSS, so don't refer to it in that fashion.

Now this is my own personal opinion on the topic, and not the voice of the PSP-OSS team, so don't argue at them for what I'm about to post:

Personally, I think that it's a disgrace to the homebrew community to force someone to pay for a 'full version' of a shell. Homebrew has always been free, and that's the way it should stay. To make people pay for an application that doesn't even run correctly on most PSPs today, firmwares 2.0 and up, is another reason I don't support PSIX. Most games that are coming out require 2.5 or 2.6, and to my knowledge, there aren't any games that run 100% correctly on 1.5 via RunUMD. The second the people decide to upgrade to a higher firmware version in order to play every game that is coming out, they've just wasted $10 on something they'll never use again. Simply put, I don't support fluff or PSIX in any way.

[grin.ch]

maybe not an OSS (yes, I know what that stands for, but I'm not a dev, so I guess I misinterpreted the definition) but it DID pioneer the way for OSs in the particular fashion that it's programmed in. Psix is THE complete shell. It's a shell you never have to leave and when exiting a homebrew, you are brought right back to the shell's desktop. Something your OSS doesn't even offer. You have to restart it everytime. Everyone of the others (including yours) don't even support fully functioning options. To play music in your shell, you have to dump all of your music in one messy folder. And as far as YOUR support goes, I tried emailing blue, who in turn, never got back to me. I don't know what you guys offer for support but that, atleast, is not appealing.

a/f/a posting a comment of which you don't support the content, why post it?

[Posty]

maybe not an OSS (yes, I know what that stands for, but I'm not a dev, so I guess I misinterpreted the definition) but it DID pioneer the way for OSs in the particular fashion that it's programmed in. Psix is THE complete shell. It's a shell you never have to leave and when exiting a homebrew, you are brought right back to the shell's desktop. Something your OSS doesn't even offer. You have to restart it everytime. Everyone of the others (including yours) don't even support fully functioning options. To play music in your shell, you have to dump all of your music in one messy folder. And as far as YOUR support goes, I tried emailing blue, who in turn, never got back to me. I don't know what you guys offer for support but that, atleast, is not appealing.

a/f/a posting a comment of which you don't support the content, why post it?

You obviously haven't used PSP-OSS. PSP-OSS DOES bring you back to OSS when you exit homebrew as well as UMDs. As far as music goes, it has to go in the PSP\MUSIC folder, as music normally does. Then it can be browsed from either the file manager, or from the start menu, where OSS makes a list of all available songs. For support, I can't speak on behalf of other members' habits for checking their e-mail.

And I posted the comment, because it relates to the discussion topic. As far as I'm concerned, that's what you're supposed to do on a forum, is it not? Part of the topic is based on the response from a PS2dev admin, which argues how PSIX shouldn't be supported. I elaborated on that subject, and gave my own opinion. Since when is staying on topic wrong?

[grin.ch]

oh I never said it was wrong, but IMO, if you're going to post something, don't be on the fence about it. You could cause a situation for yourself to the effect of having to make a decision on which you're not prepared to make. and a/f/a blue's email, that's a direct reflection on your support. So b/c you decided to play the "It's not my fault" game, your prog looks worse. You should be willing to pick up the slack and at least apologize. It's cool, though. I'm not bent about it or anything. my bad about psp-oss. I forgot it did that. I was wrong.

[Cap'n 1time]

Charging money for homebrew software, that is software that is PROUD OF BEING FREE AND OPEN TO EVERYONE is just hypocritical. Ive never really like the PSIX people. The moment they announced this horse crap I was against it. PSP-OSS is a fine bit of software. I THINK using the open source, free psp-sdk is actually a violation of the law (though you shouldnt quote me on that). I believe that mr.brown and/or whoever is involved could press charges if they felt like it. just like pspupdates.. these people need to get real jobs and stop using brilliant peoples freely available work for their own benefit.

And it is my opinion that psp-oss is a better peice of software anyway. :)

[grin.ch]

nahhhhhhh

[b8a]

Wow, it's great to hear PS2Dev (ooPo) finally weighing in on this issue. There was a lot of speculation previously and I think that that position has now been clearly defined.

As for making cash on it I generally don't care, although I would like to see some trickle down to the less financially fortunate of the ps2dev.org group of core developers. I am not one of these and do not need donations. I do this for my own entertainment and share freely with anyone else willing to put effort into learning.

The thing that really bothers me is the mention of grand gestures of returning to the community in any form, funds or not, but nobody has even heard a peep about this actually happening. If you're going to make money on it - please do so. The license allows you that right with no legal requirements whatsoever. But do not ever pretend that you're supporting the community. A lot of the core developers are professional programmers. WELL PAID professional programmers that maintain the project as a hobby, so any contention that they were being shafted by not recieving a cut has always been a murky area. Yeah, they are being shafted, but it's not like they can't afford to pay rent AND continue their work on the SDK.

I personally don't support what Fluff is doing. If devs need financial support, I absolutely support their decision to turn to the community to fulfill that support, but Fluff has shown us time and time again that he/she/it is more interested in making excuses for the fees then in simply fessing up to what we all know the fees are actually for. I think the second part of ooPo's statement above sums up my position perfectly. This wouldn't be such a big issue if Fluff didn't keep trying to justify their actions with rediculous spin and grandiose statements. For goodness sakes, it reminds me of catching a four year old with a stolen cookie in their hand and having them deny to the end that they stole it. Fluff has clearly found a community of people that supports the actions he/she/it has taken, and I think that Fluff should save their excuses for that community and stop trying to persuade the rest of us to buy into them.

[zx-81]

@b8a: a very good sum up, i totally agree with you :)

[quzar]

Some of you people should be ashamed. Have you no sense of how difficult development can be? How much time can be put into it? This isn't some sort of requisite service to you all, it is out of the goodness of our hearts that homebrew coders do what they do and you all take it for granted. It's like whining and complaining that all books should be free, because they don't inheirently have costs that lead to the creation of their intellectual property. If an author, any author, wants to charge for their work, then it is up to them to make the decision.

The legality of such a thing and the standing of the author in terms of ownership of the product of course must be tested, but I see most responses state firstly that homebrew should be free. With only free homebrew, we wouldn't have half the software companies that exist now that started when enterprising kids wrote and sold their own games for the spectrum, bbc, and c64.

Also, wraggster, can you make it more clear what is a quote by putting the quoted section in a quote box? It's often very difficult to tell where the news post ends and your commentary (if any) begins.

[chickenclaws]

Well that should an automatic not to charge for homebrew hence the name HOMEBREW!!
no comercail

[neovlace]

It's people like this that cause companies like Sony to only laugh in the faces of homebrew developers, while releasing the next firmware update that blocks all attempts to code on it. Kinda reminds me of Microshaft.....:D

[Darksaviour69]

homebrew and commercial are not opposites, the games industry started off as homebrew, software that people made at home. Homebrew, means made at home... thats it. I think you are confuseing freeware.

but that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, the question is, is right to for the creators of Psix to sell it? i know too little about the subject to comment. but i will say that selling homebrew is not, bad or wrong ( look at FOF and the other 3 games for the dreamcast), but those game are proper press CD and very well polished.. miles ahead of any freeware homebrew for the dreamcast.

[Fanjita]

There's a lot of conjecture in here. Here are the facts:

- Homebrew just means home-made. Nothing more, nothing less. Traditionally people have given their homebrew away, but that doesn't mean it's mandatory to do so.

- Fluff is not selling PSIX. The $10 (or whatever it is) is basically a forum, support and early-beta access fee, that's been clearly stated.

- Fluff states that his/her share of the fees are all being donated to a fund to give free how-to-program books etc. to homebrew devs in need of them. Believe it or don't believe it, but that's been stated publicly many times.

- Even if PSIX was being sold, the terms of the PSPSDK license (BSD-style, for those who know or care about the difference) would not prevent it. AFAIK Fluff has been very careful not to violate the terms of any licenses for software that is used in PSIX.


Now, I don't want to come across as an apologist for PSIX. Personally, I wouldn't charge anything for my homebrew, or even for support of it. But that's mostly because I don't want to feel obligated to support my work - I don't have time to do so, I need to feel free to walk away from it at any time. There are plenty of people already expecting more than I can give them, I don't want to give them reasonable grounds to expect more. This isn't a job for me, just a way of having fun.

The fact remains though that what is happening with PSIX isn't actually wrong, legally or ethically.

A lot of people think that charging for homebrew-related services is bad, and will lead to a culture of charging for all homebrew. In some ways that's a reasonable fear. But on the flip side, perhaps we're already in a position that's too far the other way. Right now, an awful lot of people fully expect homebrew developers to work slavishly for them, demanding ports and programs, and expecting commercial-level support. The various posts in here saying "but homebrew must be free" are evidence of that.

Developers so far have given away the fruits of their labours. That's hours and hours and hours of work - I'd guess that eLoader, for example, has taken AT LEAST 1000 man-hours so far to code, and probably a lot more. That's 6 months of intense effort. The majority of complex homebrew is on a similar scale. The fact that there are so many people willing to give such huge gifts to the community is a wonderful thing, but it shouldn't mean that everyone who can do so should be forced to.

If Fluff (or others) choose to charge for their work, then let them do so. It will be an interesting experiment in market economics to see what happens. Maybe people will deem the software worth paying for, maybe they won't. But they will have a choice.

And maybe, just maybe, people will come to understand the value of what is being given away, and stop simply expecting gift after gift after gift.

[Athlonman74]

my thoughts exactly Fanjita...right on...

[grin.ch]

I was just gonna say that same thing, Fanjita. (Btw, look "Fanjita" up on the internet and go to the dictionary of sexual terms. hahahahaha)

[chaos-is-me]

I disagree with charging for homebrew but that just means I personally would never pay for something like PSIX. I'm sure its pretty good (It must be to charge 10 bucks for it) but there are plenty of freebies out there that are awesome.

Although people (the idiots over at pspupdates in mind) shouldn't expect constant updates, ports and fully working homebrew right away for free and it makes me sick when people slate a dev because their app/emu isn't 100% perfect.

Yup, that's my view.

[Cap'n 1time]

I was not aware of the bsd style licensing (pretty much care free). I guess fluff has a right to sell his software. if the people of ps2dev didnt want stuff to be developed and sold with their sdk I suppose they should have used a different type of license. Anyway looks like fluff technically isnt doing anything wrong.

[zx-81]

I was not aware of the bsd style licensing (pretty much care free). I guess fluff has a right to sell his software. if the people of ps2dev didnt want stuff to be developed and sold with their sdk I suppose they should have used a different type of license. Anyway looks like fluff technically isnt doing anything wrong.

Yes, with the new version of the BSD license you can do exactly what you want with the source and the software, even for commercial uses (major difference with GNU General Public License).

AFAIK PSIX is linked with zlib which is distributed on zlib license (so you can also do exactly what you want with it, even for commercial purposes).

For the libpng (that is also used in PSIX), it is nearly the same kind of license with the following add :


"If you use this source code in a product, acknowledgment is not required but would be appreciated."


So Fluff has all the right to sell his/her software. But as Fanjita said clearly :

- Fluff is not selling PSIX. The $10 (or whatever it is) is basically a forum, support and early-beta access fee, that's been clearly stated.

Personally, i would never ask for money to developp or support my homebrews, because as many others developpers i do it for fun on my spare time.