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View Full Version : New Super Famicast & NesterDC SE releases imminent



DCEmu_Newsposter
April 20th, 2004, 22:49
News from DCEmulation (http://www.dcemulation.com) thanks to the great Dr Zoidberg.[br][br] scherzo has posted some infomation on the DCEmu forums about the next Super Famicast release that should be arriving very soon & has also asked if anybody would be willing to take over the project from him, here's some of what he had to say:[br][br]"First, by the end of the weekend, I will release a new version of Super Famicast. No, it will not be blazingly faster; not even close to fullspeed. Here's what it WILL have: [br]- Syncronized sound [br]- Mouse support [br]And that's it. Some of you might choose not to burn a new version since there isn't too much different from the last version. I might even give this a subversion number like 1.5. [br][br]Second, I want to ask someone to take over the task of speeding it up. The more and more I fool around with the code, the more I realize that maybe the task of writing the CPU core in assembler is in a little over my head being my first assembler project of any kind. I think I could do it, but not with the amount of free time I get. I foresee it taking and LOOOONG time if I do it."[br][br]scherzo has also been working on that great NES emulator that we haven't had news on for a little while, NesterDC, here is some more news from the same topic:[br][br]"Last night I got the latest version of NesterDC to compile in my dev environment. I plan on making a Special Edition of this emu with added features. The feature that will stand out the most is netplay and will support both the modem and bba. NesterDC will connect to a central server where you can find other people to play with. It will also sport a new interface using the system I developed for Super Famicast. [br][br]If anyone here has ideas for new features they would like to see in NesterDC SE (Special Edition, Scherzo Edition ) then post them here.[br][br]I will also need testers in the future, especially people with a bba since those are difficult to come by." [br][br]Amazing news :)

Clessy
April 21st, 2004, 19:05
I know this will sound terriable but damn. All this ****ing hype over superfamicast and its not gonna go anywhere. Out of all the devolopers scherzo looked like he'd finsh it to the end. Now he's just done like so many others. I hate people who release things and never finsh them more than I do people who dont do anything at all.

wraggster
April 21st, 2004, 19:14
Give him a chance hes still learning his craft, it is an open source emu so hopefully others with better knowledge of SH4 can help him.

Its like Building a House, yes we can all do cerrtain jobs but now and again you need an expert to tidy little bits up and that philosophy carrys over to coding.

Clessy
April 21st, 2004, 19:19
He shouldnt of claimed he was gonna get it to fullspeed if he couldnt do it by himself.

Darksaviour69
April 21st, 2004, 19:26
i don't think he said he would, i think he said he would try. i think the idea of Super Famicast is that everone can chip in a little

DemoniusX
April 23rd, 2004, 00:54
Give him a chance hes still learning his craft, it is an open source emu so hopefully others with better knowledge of SH4 can help him.

Its like Building a House, yes we can all do cerrtain jobs but now and again you need an expert to tidy little bits up and that philosophy carrys over to coding.
I agree totally, I know it was really hyped because we were excited to hear something on a
snes emulator that was in the works. You never know though, scherzo COULD get better at
compiling and start working on super famicast again, but he needs a chance. I am disappointed
(spelling sux today} but I just have to live with the fact that it may take a very long time
to get it going, from what I heard snes is hard to emulate. My brothers 200 mhz computer can
handle zsnes fine, but this aint zsnes that is being ported (another thing that is impossible,
from what I heard} this in snes 9x so it is totally different code and I think it may need
more processing power to run 9x but then again GP 32 has a snes emu that runs full speed and
I believe sound. quote me if I am wrong though, please. if we see full strength snes emulaton
we will, if we don't then we don't, just get a snes or super famicom and get a super 8
converter if you want import games, or get a flash card for your super famicom. like I said
though if it happens it happens, just be patient, I for one have given up but if it happens
then I will be happy for I can play games that weren't released here with english translation
patches (frikin japs :P}.

Clessy
April 23rd, 2004, 01:52
Meh the flash card thing is total ****ing bs. It would be easier to get a Video card with tv out and it would be better too. Anyways you werent saying this opinion at Dcemulation.

WHurricane16
April 23rd, 2004, 03:25
Please, just ban him. *This isn't cool, Cless.

I wish I had more time, the Nester DC project sounds right up my alley. I guess I could make time to test, but I'd like to help out someway :/

DemoniusX
April 23rd, 2004, 05:20
ban me? they can't ban me HERE if I am good, you watch, if I am a nice guy here (and i can
fake being good} they can't ban me if I am not flaming anybody can they? NOPE! banning, I don't
think thats a word!

speud
April 23rd, 2004, 05:50
so whats the story? clessy and demoniusx are the same guy or one of them is more stupid than i thought?
anyway i think that would be a good idea to ban both, their posts are so useless...

DemoniusX
April 23rd, 2004, 07:15
you cannot ban someone that is not doing anything wrong, and I am not doing anything wrong
therefore you cannot ban the person unless they are flaming constantly which I am not doing
so in all honesty, you can't ban me of NO REASON, and that post to me and clessy you made
you should be ban for that then, since it is also pointless, well then you should be banned
to speud.

Clessy
April 23rd, 2004, 12:57
so whats the story? clessy and demoniusx are the same guy or one of them is more stupid than i thought?
anyway i think that would be a good idea to ban both, their posts are so useless...
You mean excatly like the one you just posted? I'm tired of all you coders and your stupid elitist ways. No offense to coders who arent assholes tho.

DemoniusX
April 23rd, 2004, 20:08
You mean excatly like the one you just posted? I'm tired of all you coders and your stupid elitist ways. No offense to coders who arent assholes tho.

ian micheal and black aura are the only nice coders I have known, they never gave me proplems, it seems like the other coders have ego trips and take out on people who cannot code.I agree with you that most coders in the dc realm are elitist.

speud
April 23rd, 2004, 20:39
if elitist means someone who doesnt like people who are always negative without being productive then yes im one of the most elitist guy i think, but that has nothing to do with the fact im a coder.

Skyhawk
April 23rd, 2004, 23:32
And when the new VMU Tool is released DemoniusX and Clessy will happily burn it with all the saves downloaded from speud his site ;).

Speud isn't elite at all, he is just realistic. C'mon, keep it clean. I don't expect you are contributing and you don't need to, just try to be a bit less negative unless with good arguments.

Christuserloeser
April 23rd, 2004, 23:47
Please, just ban him. *This isn't cool, Cless.

Agree.

???

It's less fun reading the posts here if someone's going to be a crazy poster, without any real message / content, like this (my) one *>:(

What's up with him?

It makes no sense and gives me a bad feeling about the newbs visiting the scene when the atmosphere on these sites turns bad.

@Cless:
Plz give some useful suggestions or sth similar, if a program isn't designed like you want it to be
...or learn SH4 asm ;D

Clessy
April 24th, 2004, 05:29
You're so mindless you cant even see I didnt start the fight. Anyways I'm not a coder. I looked into C in late middle school years and early highschool years and I just couldnt bare it. Tons of hrs for lil results. So now i'm into Pre Production Video Editing.

Kamjin
April 24th, 2004, 10:41
look.. scherzo is being realistic..

He can try to code the cpu core in assembly, and I can put money on it
if he tried, it would probably end up slower than compiled C..

He's never done it before.. and it's not an easy undertaking..
To gain speed first you need to write your assembly based on
the design of the cpu.. How it does it's branch prediction, and
pre-fetching, keep your code inside the cache's..aligning it on
cache lines... creating queues.. for data writes/fetches..
and it's easy to trash the cache on the SH4..

But the 6502/816 is so simple I doubt that re-coding the core
to assembly will make much of a difference.. someone would
probably be better off going into the code and getting rid of
all those 8bit/16bit seq. reads, and writes and make them 32bit..
try to burst as much as possible, space the rom image in ram
away (page aligned) *from the variables so the pages can kept
open on the sdram,
the same would go for any data thats simultaneosly being accessed..
try to move as much of the video engine as possible to the PVR, and
DMA engine.. even interleaving the CPU/Video emulation with the screen
drawing..
Use global/static variables like crazy, use shifts/logic instead of mults/divs/math..
get rid of any floating point, ALL typecasting.. make all
the vars 32bit simplify the code, none of that
50 things happens on one line deal..

Ugh.. my ears a bleeding...
And the point was.. it's not such an easy task..
you gotta have lots of free time to pull that off

Clessy
April 24th, 2004, 15:34
Why hasnt anyone used underclock on Snes yet they have on Genesis. Genesis emulators are rather fast right now they just lack features like saving.

speud
April 24th, 2004, 19:37
thanks kamjin, that was very instructive.

wraggster
April 24th, 2004, 23:37
Thanks Kamjin for the info.

A note to those who flame etc etc

Dont 8)

I wont have these forums ruined by flaming, constructive comments are welcome but dont come here for a slanging match or you will be shown the door.

Have a nice day :)

Kamjin
April 25th, 2004, 01:07
no problemo..

If you want anything explained further just let me know..

wraggster
April 25th, 2004, 01:28
Thanks, your work is great Btw ;)

Nice to see so much talent in the Dreamcast scene.

wraggster
April 25th, 2004, 12:26
Did the very first versions of Zsnes use the c language instead of ASM, if so would it be possible to work from that point in time?

Clessy
April 25th, 2004, 17:12
Nope even the very first version used complete ASM.
During around version 1.0 however someone used a program to convert all of Zsnes to sloppy C and then compiled it. Much slower but if you could get in contact with the author you might be able to port it but i doubt it would be any faster than Snes9x.

Kamjin
April 26th, 2004, 06:39
Thank ya Wraggster ;D

I've looked a Zsnes code a while back.. it's intuitively optimised, earlier
versions were much more optimised, but he's had to remove some
self modifing code in a few places, so it doesn't bomb out on anything
better than a pentium..
the asm version is a good reference.. but the SH4 command set makes
the intel inst. set look like the dinosaur that it is..

Clessy, you'd be surprised simple sloppy code might actually run faster
then neat and tidy over "guruish" code.. compilers tend to have a bit
of trouble when the code has multi fucntions on one line.. or C++ type
code usually becomes bloated when compiled into assembly..
By any chance you got a link to that C source?

DemoniusX
April 29th, 2004, 07:55
I just have one simple question, why did scherzo tell us all this good stuff and not do it.
I respect the guy for what he has done but why did he tell us from "I am not even close of
quitting superfamicast" to " I can't do it anymore" a person who builds us up with hype
and how hapy we are about the new snes development, unlike a certain team that likes to play
"hide and go seek" won't mention any names, but why would a coder makes us happy and just let
us down like that, I would never do that regardless, if I had the knowledge that he had I
wouldn't quit, cuz i for one am not a quitter when I do something, I just lack knoledge but
the ones who do have the knoledge quit easily when a task if over whelming, but if I had
the knowledge I would put it towards the DC scene, that would be for sure :}. he should take his time and do it, because I have a felling no one is going to pick up the sword and go at it.

Kamjin
April 29th, 2004, 20:57
I'd place my bet's on optimism, and not realising
how much time it's actually gonna take.

I think his intentions were good at the start, but
the project just overwhelemed him.
and In most cases that's the main problem. People
start out with all the energy.. burn all sort of time
on the project.. then get frustrated, and give up..
or loose interest..
They have to just pace it.. or take a break..
so what if it takes 8 months to do.. you're supposed
to be doing it for your own enjoyment..

And I agree, torch passing tends to die off I've tacked
SFC on my todo list.. but if I get around to it It's gonna
take a while.. my current project (a 2.5D engine) is really
eating more time then it should.. and after that I've
got 2 more ports I had started tinkering with.. after that
I'm gonna see if I can rework chunks of the SFC engine..
buit it's a long ways off..

wraggster
April 29th, 2004, 22:23
Scherzo wont let it die, he just needs to learn more about SH4 ASM, give him time and he will surprise you :)

DemoniusX
April 30th, 2004, 01:37
Scherzo wont let it die, he just needs to learn more about SH4 ASM, give him time and he will surprise you :)
i can see what you mean ,but it is really hard to be nice to someone that makes a horrendous
amount of promises and not carry them out. I can understand that people are doing this for
fun and not money but why hype up us lovers of the Dc scene and then let us down, I mean
come on, and wraggster, I expected a suprise out of the Dsnes team and I still seen nothing on
them, but I am not going to mention anymore of them because people jock them so I am not
going to further comment on them. I respect coder in what they do but I can't respect quitters
when it comes to letting all the people who supported scherzo in the first place, it is like
when a father does not give his kid something on his Bday, UNEXCUSABLE! I do have a snes
but I can't read japanese other wise I would get tons of imports, the only Import I really
have Is Dracula X rondo of blood. that is it, but I have a translation sheet that tells me
what they are saying in the cut scenes so it is all good. I don't see, I mean hell I hate my
job lots and I barely get paid at all and it is overwhelming but I do it to please others
same goes to the DC scene, people who code make the ones who cannot happy, why wouldn't they
be, I mean I had faith in Ian micheal cuz he is not a quitter he does what he can in the emu
scene, and look what he brought us, The Neo CD project and look how much speed it has and
all it can do so far, it hasn't been out for more than 2 months!!!!! that is a repected coder
I wish all coders were determinted like he is but everyone is different, I am happy with what
I have in the dcscene but I would always like more, and who knows if I get the knowledge that
the coders got maybe I can make something that will make everyones mouth drop.

WHurricane16
April 30th, 2004, 03:38
i can see what you mean ,but it is really hard to be nice to someone that makes a horrendous
amount of promises and not carry them out.

It's called life. Deal with it.

I couldn't think of a nicer way to say all of that. Really, Demon that is not cool. Have you ever let anyone down in your life? I guess we they should question your intentions publicly too, then we can continue this cycle of reasoning.

Let's get something straight: Scherzo has the talent, but Scherzo doesn't have the time. He's doing this for his own purposes, and is not getting paid for it. If you have the skills that Scherzo have, then maybe you can question him *privately*. Damn.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

DemoniusX
April 30th, 2004, 23:53
It's called life. *Deal with it. *

I couldn't think of a nicer way to say all of that. *Really, Demon that is not cool. *Have you ever let anyone down in your life? *I guess we they should question your intentions publicly too, then we can continue this cycle of reasoning.

Let's get something straight: *Scherzo has the talent, but Scherzo doesn't have the time. *He's doing this for his own purposes, and is not getting paid for it. * If you have the skills that Scherzo have, then maybe you can question him *privately*. *Damn.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

I just want to say on last thing before I say the heck with this topic, cuz I don't even see
superfamicast V 1.5 or the nester deal either. I never let anyone down in my life, I couldn't
I have a heart a gold but I have a emotional problem and I am also sensitive [does not take a
genius to figure that out} if you make promises and not carry them out then its wrong. It
is not "life" you know if you make promises and break them people start disliking you and
hating you, I can't let people down because I care too much for people even though I get beat
down for expressing my beliefs, which is why this world is F**CED up and so are the people.
any ways if Super famicast comes back great , then I apoligize for my pounding on scherzo
but if he doesn't release the nester deal, how many people do you think are going to be happy
with his coding expertise then, I bet most of the DC scene will disrespect him, but hide
it cuz they don't want to get flamed like I do because I am not afraid of expressing my beliefs.

speud
May 1st, 2004, 01:27
first scherzo never promised anything but doing his best.
second get a life and stop complaining about authors who cant answer to your demands.
third why admins dont post warnings about this kind of dumb posts?

ive seen a warning for flamming recently, but i think some messages really deserve a flame, while these stupid complains are really useless. or maybe thats the kind of posters you want here ???

EDIT: funny filter you have :)

Clessy
May 1st, 2004, 04:14
I just want to say on last thing before I say the heck with this topic, cuz I don't even see
superfamicast V 1.5 or the nester deal either. I never let anyone down in my life, I couldn't
I have a heart a gold but I have a emotional problem and I am also sensitive [does not take a
genius to figure that out} if you make promises and not carry them out then its wrong. It
is not "life" you know if you make promises and break them people start disliking you and
hating you, I can't let people down because I care too much for people even though I get beat
down for expressing my beliefs, which is why this world is F**CED up and so are the people.
any ways if Super famicast comes back great , then I apoligize for my pounding on scherzo
but if he doesn't release the nester deal, how many people do you think are going to be happy
with his coding expertise then, I bet most of the DC scene will disrespect him, but hide
it cuz they don't want to get flamed like I do because I am not afraid of expressing my beliefs.
I know what you mean man theres 100's of people thinking about how much they hate people for starting all these projects and then never going anywhere with them but everyones affaird of flame back.

Ian_micheal
May 1st, 2004, 05:25
Nester DC does not need a new menu netplay is unproved and the modem driver does not give a dial tone when i tryed it.


He should be improving some thing like DreamMSX which needs a new menu..

He did promise fullspeed Snes emulation i seen the post where he promised it. And not to give up.

Also looking at katana for a proper modem driver and improving open source projects with Leaked Katana dev kit even stating the idea was Pretty wrong.

Any one thing you need out of that and it's clear to me the modem driver..

Still good luck but the big claims and no action might start to grate on a lot of people.

speud
May 1st, 2004, 12:10
Nester DC does not need a new menu netplay is unproved and the modem driver does not give a dial tone when i tryed it.

He should be improving some thing like DreamMSX which needs a new menu..

so you think an update of nesterDC would be a bad thing? just because there are other projects you think should be updated too? to me any update is welcome, plus if he get the modem working that will open new possibilities for other projects.



He did promise fullspeed Snes emulation i seen the post where he promised it. And not to give up.

hmmm i dont remember having read that, but if you have a link feel free to post it. i remember he said he knew he could do it, but you probably know that being positive when you start a project is essential. if you start and dont believe you can make it you can give up really quick.



Also looking at katana for a proper modem driver and improving open source projects with Leaked Katana dev kit even stating the idea was Pretty wrong.

that would have been pretty wrong if he used katana in nesterDC, but he quickly changed his mind.



Still good luck but the big claims and no action might start to grate on a lot of people.

i really dont like this way to think. people should be happy he tried and released something instead of just complaining he didnt make it perfect. thats even more surprising from someone like you ian. you should know pretty well how rude it is when you work hard on something and dont see users being grateful to reward you.

Ian_micheal
May 1st, 2004, 12:43
That's not from me is it? i said a lot of people were, did i say me? Ive heard this throu pm's and msn people are not really impressed. My comment is pertaining to that. My own POV is dont say you done it till it's working .

Point being the modem driver has no dial tone and does not work right when i tested it at all. *So if he get's it working i will just be thinking he used the info from the cracked katana dev kit he downloaded and said clearly i will use it.


After me posting he said he was not going to. Never should of been a thought should it. If i had not posted do your really think he would of not used it. I post the facts straight from the kit.

Sorry i dont share your view on ripping the authors menu on shoving his menu and and calling that A NICE UPDATE, if i was the nester dc author and that was done to my hard work i be pissed. There is nothing wrong with the nesterdc menu is there?
Netplay is fine but it be nice to be mailled to the author of the program see if he wants an update.

It's just going to kill any chance of a real offical update.

Stop and think a min would you like it if that happen to your tool. With out asking at all.

Really have you ever seen a unoffical update to nester dc or demomenu from me or a new dream inducer.

I have the source to all of these no way im doing an update. I have respect for these programs and what they did for the scene.

I dont support any update is a good one.

speud
May 1st, 2004, 13:45
well i hope youre wrong and he really changed his mind about katana, anyway theres no need to reproach him something he didnt do yet.

i agree if he uses illegal tools to continue a project started with legal tools that would be a big error, but i see nothing wrong in continuing it with legal tools.
vmu tool is not open source so no chance it happens, if i opened the source i think i would expect someone to update my project someday.

as for the modem dial with kos it sounds hard but possible from different sources, lets wait and see, if he gets it implemented he will probably share the source so you can see if it comes from katana or kos.

wraggster
May 1st, 2004, 13:56
i see no problem at all with unofficial updates to emulators whos sources have been released, just remember that NesterDC was in fact kens port to start with and then it was took over but at one stage we had the normal Nesterdc and also the expanded version.

Give Scherzo the chance to explain himself before any more is said :)

Ian_micheal
May 1st, 2004, 15:24
Simple fact he posted a link on dcemu to the leaked katana dev kit and said im going to use it to improve nesterdc.


I think that's shocking he promoted the leaked link and quoted the person who leaked it.

That shocked me and i dont have to be impressed by that do.

Very much on topic.

wraggster
May 1st, 2004, 15:28
getting back on topic

Why cant a source from an older versionof snes 9x be used to get better speed?

maybe not as compatible butjust for speed and work from there

Ian_micheal
May 1st, 2004, 15:36
It can be Nothing much offtopic about it source is easy to compile. If i made a faster version which i could do. With out asking it would be called Stealing his project so i stayed right away from SFC source.

But Nothing off topic about what some one is going to use or if the release will be legal It's formost in a scene were legal and development is the only thing that matter not speed or netplay.

But to anwser you yes and i could do it im sure many others could..

wraggster
May 1st, 2004, 15:46
i remember playing snes 9x on a pentium 166 with a crap graphics cardand little ram and it played the 32m carts so is it worth going back in time and using an early version of the source to get the speed?

Scherzo probably didnt realise about the Katana thing but im sure he will be ok with it and use Kos etc.

No ones perfect he was probably just trying tomake up for his disapointment at not getting super famicast better.

but non of us are perfect and we must all learn to do things the right way and tell each others in a non flaming way.

thats not to say anyones flaming but you know what i mean.

id rather we were all frinedly than nasty to each others, that has been the down fall of many a good site.

Ian_micheal
May 1st, 2004, 17:09
Oh well we all make mistakes..

DemoniusX
May 11th, 2004, 22:12
has anyone hear anything about this subject yet? I have not heard anything yet nester SE, anybody know anything?

wraggster
May 11th, 2004, 22:20
We just have to sit and wait patiently :)

DemoniusX
May 11th, 2004, 22:28
yeah your right, I thought of something the other night, I totally forgot the SNES has two graphic proccessors, so I can see why the snes does not have full speed emulation, come to think of it, I don't think its possible, sorry for being netative but that makes sense why it can't achieve ful speed.

wraggster
May 11th, 2004, 22:33
iTs possible, just look at Bleemcast but not all coders in fact im sure no coders can donate that much time to get it all in sh4 asm.

any improvement on dreamsnes would be great, we shall see if it happens.

DemoniusX
May 11th, 2004, 22:40
yeah, I agree that rand can work miracles.

scherzo
May 12th, 2004, 15:44
Well, damn. It's funny how people seem so understanding on the dcemulation boards but speak their true minds here. I really don't know where to start. No, I don't feel like cursing anyone out. I want people to understand my life.

How many of the coders here are married? How many have children? Hmm? Not too many, right? I bet most of you in high school or college with quite a bit of freedom to choose how their free time is used.

So here I am, 26 years old, with a wife and 15 month old daughter. I'm not complaning because it's not like my situation was equivilent to getting hit by a car. My situation, although not the most comfortable for my kind of personality, is my doing. The truth is I have been rebelling against this lack of freedom. I still love video games. I love coding. I'm always struggling between doing what I love and supporting the people I love. Do you know how much I alienated my family during that two weeks of initial Super Famicast development? I'm not fishing for sympathy here. It's just that the only way I think you all can understand my behavior is to know exactly where I'm coming from.

Yes, I did promise not to quit on Super Famicast. I have not broke that promise. I merely asked for extended help a few weeks ago realizing that I wouldn't be able to make a release in a long time. I could have just stayed quiet and not said a damn thing like DSNES but I guess I thought there was a sense of community here. I didn't know that if I didn't deliver people would say everything just short of "I'm suing you for false advertising".

I made the decision to do an updated NesterDC is because I feel I can fit something like that into my schedule. Super Famicast was going great until I realized I'd have to write pieces in asm. A free hour here and there makes it really difficult to work on something like that. I want to do NesterDC my way because I want it. I like my menus, damn it. You think I do it all for you guys? You are secondary. I work on enough things that I don't care about.

"He should be improving some thing like DreamMSX which needs a new menu.." - Ian Michael

Really? Oh, SHOULD I? Why would I work on something that I don't give a crap about? Well, Ian, I think you SHOULD be working on an sh4 asm core for me, ok? All of you SHOULD drop what you're doing right now and dedicate your lives to me. Muuuhahahahahaa!!!

It's strange to hear coders speak like you did, Ian, because of all people a coder SHOULD understand. You non-coders who whine about me just don't know any better.

I think from now on I'll refrain from letting people know how I'm doing and just post things that I finish on my site. That way there are no promises and everything comes as a surprise.

Now I finally understand the DSNES team's silence.

Clessy
May 12th, 2004, 17:38
Scherzo I feel kinds sorry for telling you that this was a good dc message board that you should check out cause I wasnt expecting that.

Also I think the reason you see this kinda non understanding around here is because 90% of the posters are either staff or coders.

Coders trash other coders because they themselves know they could do improvement on things after the time.

And then I the staff might say stuff because they've been around to experance 3 Snes Emu failers with coders just like you saying promising things and it always end up no where near complete.

You never told me you just had a child. Congrats to that. I thoguht you where just very busy.

Well I dont konw what you should do but, if you dont release files regradless of how complecated your life people will just move you down to what they think of dreamsnes's coders now. Anyways besta luck and i'll talk to you later.

Ian_micheal
May 12th, 2004, 18:42
Im 27 my self and Manic depression i deal with it as well. lucky my wife is understanding. ive been in a program to help me control anger and lashing out at people. Plus all the projects i do and behind the scenes.

I do understand you should never make any promises till there finshed. Im sorry i did not get impressed but the link to the leaked SDK. On my forum you would of got a warning for that.

Other then that ive said nothing wrong you made promises and said you could do it not many people know sh4.

You was very opmistic at what you could do to it. Sh4 asm core would not bring snes9x core to fullspeed. I said that at the start.I helped you out gave you a little known -D that made speed for you.No point attacking me i supported you.

I could make it faster with out doing what your saying it's not going to make it fullspeed or close. Cpu is not the main problem it's the video rendering.

Any way The leak to the SDK was upsetting to me that type of think is why im not int he xbox scene i do a hell of lot better if i was.

I do it for the people not me. Projects ive done were by request not for me i dont do it for me ive tryed but thats not me im not selfish like that.

wraggster
May 12th, 2004, 19:20
woah please i repect all coders, damn we do respect your work Scherzo and i know what ya mean about familys :)

Keep up the good work

This topic is not what i want from my site.

scherzo
May 12th, 2004, 19:22
Ian, Do you honestly consider it selfish to spend countless hours doing something I believe in? Should I instead be doing what everyone tells me to do? I do that enough as it is already.

I'm sorry to hear that you struggle with manic depression. I myself have dealt with depression since my high school years too.

Yeah, bad move by me to make a big public scene about Katana. Accept my apology please.

Oh yeah, I was very optimistic at the beginning of Super Famicast. I was finally doing something I enjoyed with my free time and making good progess. You, being a manic as you are, should understand that moods can change very rapidly.

You have no idea how much I want to make Super Famicast work. I wish I could hole up for a month away from everyone and do it. This whole marriage and fatherhood thing has been really difficult for me. I'm an only child from divorced parents and have enjoyed my space and free time. Now, the only time I'm really truely alone is when I'm driving somewhere, like to work. My job is also screwed up. I can't focus there because when I'm there, I read forums/articles, code my own stuff, and on company time. As a matter of fact, I'm in a constant state of falling apart.

Sorry that I'm using this forum as a blog now but I'm all gibbered up.

Sorry that I promised and couldn't deliever. You guys are disappointed? How do you think I feel whenever I try to sit down to code for DC and I'm interrupted every 5 mins with some varying BS? Or when my wife sees me running back and forth between my laptop and DC and ignoring her? You just don't know.

As you can see I'm not the most stable of people though I can see act the part. The only person who knows how constantly frustrated I am is my wife. Now the DC community knows.

wraggster
May 12th, 2004, 19:25
Scherzo :)

The scene understands, you want what we all want and you are progressing but rome wasnt built in a day my friend. Best to nibble at the apple and have spells when you are refeshed.

I know about the wife thing too :P

mines gonna kill me

wraggster
May 12th, 2004, 19:27
real life always comes first, we all do understand.

You owe us nothing, any releases we get from you are great and lets hope others help out i areas your not 100% at.

Dont judge this site on some of the sayings in this one topic.

Its a good site and ive already dealt with one problem.

Ian_micheal
May 12th, 2004, 20:14
Yeah Np I understand Scherzo. I had the same break my father was a alchloic that sexual abused me so i do understand.

Any way my mood changes.. So good luck it's fustrating. Np lets get making things better.

Selfish was the comment about you saying stuff you people i do it for me first. Nothing more.

wraggster
May 12th, 2004, 20:15
Lets try and help scherzo as a scene and use what vast coding talent we have and try and make super famicast a reality.

It can be done, teamwork is the key to all of this :)

Ian_micheal
May 12th, 2004, 20:19
Indeed With out the teamwork Neogeo Cd would still be months away or never. I will do what i can.


People dont have much of any idea about what it takes to do the stuff we do.

I had a type of Mental break down 4 weeks ago lost any feelings which was quiet odd i could not feel sad or happy or any thing.

It lasted 3 weeks like this I do see some one every 4 weeks so im not puting it on i know how it feels and im in a constant battle to stay the way im now.

1 year ago I was a lot worst.

You can tell when im not doing really well my spelling gets worst and I post stuiped things.

wraggster
May 12th, 2004, 20:24
yeah teamwork is key, and just remember all that choosing the right words on a forum can make a mass of difference,

we all have feelings :)

Please share your workload with the scene scherzo and post any problems on the dev forum and hopefully all the different coders that come here can help you

scherzo
May 12th, 2004, 20:34
Alright, let's all try to stay on track, me included. I'm not giving up on SFC. I know the graphics rendering is a huge bottleneck and I'm going to investigate into streamlining it.

Kind of back on topic / off topic... who knows but...

Did you know that GCC guesses at the branch possibilities of code execution? When you enable any optimization starting with -O, GCC turns on -fguess-branch-probability. I often wondered why sometimes games would run a frame or two more slowly than it just did. I would compile, test, clean, compile, and test and see different speeds.

You can pass GCC -fno-guess-branch-probability to prevent this behavior so that the same code is generated each time but it is not nearly as fast as any of it's guesses.

It feels like chaos theory to me. Nevertheless, I've gained a frame or two from using the subversion KOS compiled with my choice of GCC parameters.

wraggster
May 12th, 2004, 20:38
Scherzo is there anything in the source of the OpenSnes9x emu for the GP32 that could help on the Dreamcast, any little hacks to make speed better.

scherzo
May 12th, 2004, 20:57
The are plenty of hacks in the gfx code that use arm asm. Yoyofr also used an older version of snes9x as his base. It's been difficult to me to see what are differences in original snes9x code and yoyofr's speedups. I really need to look at it again in a more general way to see how I can apply the same ideas to Super Famicast.

Also, SNES Advance has caught my eye as well. Apparently Loopy has devised a way to patch the games so that they run faster. I asked for an explanation in the SNES Advance forums at pocketheaven.com but no one really helped. Maybe it's something that can't be taken advantage of on a system like DC. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the SNES and GBA both have similar graphics mode with sprites and backgrounds.

wraggster
May 12th, 2004, 21:00
I personally was wondering if its better to go back in time to the releases when we were all on pentium 200s and start from there and port a much older source version that actually works on a machine not as powerful as the dreamcast.

steveola
May 12th, 2004, 21:36
Wraggster has a point there!

Nowadays with all the high PC specs, coders can afford to be sloppy. Not so in the old days, everyone had 486's and code had to be uber-clean.

wraggster
May 12th, 2004, 21:42
it just makes me wonder that we need to go back to the older versions of emus to get the speed wwe need.

Then go from there :)

DemoniusX
May 12th, 2004, 23:05
I just want to state that I also suffer from manic depression, been molested and beat up every day near death at elementry school because kids thought I was "too fat" to live so its kind of predijuce there (sorry if I misspelled} I remember being in the hospital for
broken ribs and couldn't breathe that well, parents worried sick. now I am 22 all that stuff I went through has affected me now, don't care to go outside, don't care to have friends like if your a friend and just dislike me I don't care to save the friendship, don't care
for a girlfriend (got my heart broken in 2k don't care} this is why I have a learning disability, because when I learn something my mind goes elsewhere about all the good stuff that I miss in life therefore I just can't focus. now my parents are divorced dad lives in indiana, brother and sister live on their own. I spend most of my days in my room at home isloating myself because the outside world has done wrong to me, so I don't want any part *of this place.



Scherzo I truly understand the "time" thing. last year I worked a lot last summer. I always looked forward to ploping myself on my leather seat with a fan in my face on the computer, winding down from work. (I lost my job a week ago, store budgets,laid off :( } then friends wanted to hang with me, I had no time to play my video games and I started to get pissed and when I did find time it would be 4:00 am in the morning before work. I
been wanting to play my games but I am concerntrating in finding employment and since america sucks, its hard to find employment. I am 340 lbs (pound man} I am very slow and low energy it is hard to keep a job with the energy of mine. people want energetic people
I lose. Then you might say "hey try to lose weight" well since depression has taken over everything about me all I can say is "I don't care" cuz eventually you get sick of it and *give up, I am tired of trying to make it better for me, so here is what my life is going to consist of: work,home,eat,sleep,video games that is it, nice eh? I could care but I learned not to, I learned that friends here in michigan are bullshit, so you could call me a "loser" cuz well I am. I may sound like I am whining but people here don't understand me, they just think
I diss,diss,diss. well i got some advice from a great person his name is Ian micheal. so I try VERY HARD not to say anything negative but since I am so pestimistic it is how I fell.

Well scherzo, all I can say good luck on your project and I truly apoligize for the things I stated. if you don't accept my apology that is ok, I don't expect you to, at least I got to apoligize to you. I know if I wasn't retarded and could code, I wouldn't like people to
diss my work, however I would do what i could to improve the problem,so I could please the fans. now you are excused for that because you have family and a child (I dream to be a family man, I know it will never happen} I am glad about the thing coders have given us, and take my advice. Depression is a horrible enemy, don't let it get the best of you like it has me.......

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 00:43
Apology more than accepted D.

It seems like we've all got our problems here. So not only do we have the love for DC in common, we've got emotional/mental issues too.

Looks like I'll be getting some more "me" time. My wife and I decided to situate our 2 bedroom apartment in such a way that I'll be able to work alone in peace. Let's see how that turns out.

DemoniusX
May 13th, 2004, 01:07
seems like you have a understanding wife that is cool. I am glad you accept my apology :} well don't strain yourself when it comes to projects, I been straining myself trying to figure out commands on RPG maker 2k, :}. I am trying to make Demon Chronicles; Demonius Darkblade, its about a demon who fights in hell and angels are being slaughtered one by one.satans calls out for demonius, and demonius obeys his master and comes forth. Satan orders Demonius to slay the arch angel, as Demonius raises his Blade to slay the angel the Angel looks up at demonius with tears in his eyes, Demonius suddenly felt something that demons can't feel, Remorse and saddness, Demonius Drops his sword and tells satan " I cannot slay this angel for he has done no wrong" satan tells demonius "You are Disobeying me!!??!??" Demonius says "I am for there is no purpose for this slaying, its madness!" Satan yells "DIE TRAITOR!!!!!!!" throws a deadly fireball and the angel uses its last ounce of strength to teleport demonius, the blast destroys the angel. then demonius finds he is on a shore of a beach (like most stories} he awakes and asks "who...who am I" he sees a small town in the distance in hope for some answers. Sound cool? I thought it did. I am offtopic LOL well man, if you continue to work on Super famicast that is cool, like i tell my coder friends as yourself, Don't rush your Genius. good luck and i pray and hope you get the help you need, cuz one men army can do damage, but they can't always win the war :} take care bro.

lantus
May 13th, 2004, 01:39
scherzo, i totally understand your situation. I have a fiance and am married in October this year. Undoubtably with marriage commitments, my time spent coding will diminish. Hopefully i can still find some time to work on my stuff but it will be an interesting year for me.

as for Snes9x - yeah working off an earlier source base might not be a bad idea to compare speeds with. Ever since post 1.39 releases, things have gotten slower (due to the removal of hacks). It has been confirmed by the Snes9x developers themselves. I am all for removing hacks to ensure better compatability - but unfortunatly the side affect of this can hurt console ports.

good luck

BlackAura
May 13th, 2004, 05:37
scherzo - GCC supports branch prediction hints, which you can use if you know a certain piece of code is (un)likely to be executed.

Have a look at this message (first Google hit, which turned out to have some useful info):

http://sources.redhat.com/ml/sid/2001-q1/msg00072.html

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 06:20
Thanks BA. At least that's some control as opposed to crossing your fingers and hoping you get a good compile each time. Maybe I could put this in certain places such as SuperFX and SA1 specific code since nearly all games don't have those chips. Perhaps elsewhere in the graphics code too. Even if it's a frame or two better, it's still something.

Ian_micheal
May 13th, 2004, 07:05
Yes some times out of no were i get a much faster build. Thanks for telling me why was starting to get to me. I compiled a build of a project 2 times it hit 21fps the other times 14 fps thats a big drop thats some thing compiled 10 times.


Best setting on neogeo sdl/cd brings a lot of speed and fixes the grafix display is this


-O9 -fomit-frame-pointer -freorder-blocks -funsigned-char

I use it on a lot of things.

Kamjin
May 13th, 2004, 08:52
Just a small shift in topic..

Scherzo, I hope nothing I posted offended you, and if
it did my appologies..

Just to restate..
The CPU core in C is fine, since most of the opcodes are
not passing params (global CPU), and you have all the
subfunctions as inline, you're not going to gain by using
assembly.

I only looked at the cpu, and a bit of the dma code, where are
you placing the backbuffer, as you build it system/video ram?

Ian_micheal
May 13th, 2004, 12:10
Yeah I looked at the cpu core and noticed that but really was not listened to. Sh4 core would make little change. Kamjin is there any thing you can see in neogeo cd for optmizing.

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 15:04
The snes9x system requires you to create a buffer that receives the rendered image. I create this buffer in system memory and copy that to video memory. Video memory is also quadruple buffered itself which is a method I stole from NesterDC code. So there are four different pvr textures that are written to, not at the same time of course, just a diferent one each frame. Of course, that quadruple buffering is what causes the perceived input lag of NesterDC. I'm going to change this to only double buffering and see if that improves that input lag.

I don't think that how I'm rendering the image once snes9x has put it in a system memory buffer is a source of slow down. It's the snes9x code that builds that offscreen image. My current code has the ability to enable/disable sprites and backgrounds through the in-game menu. As you do so, you notice the frame rate pick up. Super Mario world for instance runs nearly full speed if you turn off 3 of the 4 backgrounds. If you turn everything off, it does run fullspeed. So the cpu core in C is actually fast enough. I just thought in the beginning that rewriting the cpu core, although fast anough, would give even more time to other things like graphics. This is true, but it won't give as much as focusing on graphics itself.

I've also tried to have my pvr rendering code run in a seperate thread so that the blocking aspect of pvr_ready and pvr_wait wouldn't slow down emulation. It would actually run a little bit slower. I believe the state switching of KOS's thread system was more expensive than what I might have been gaining. Multithreading is a convenient construct but not the most efficient on a system like the Dreamcast, I think.

I'm going to work hard to get my most current code and binaries out very soon so we're looking at all the same stuff.

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 15:46
Also, does anyone here use the dma transfer functions successfully? Every time I try it, it freezes up on me. I call pvr_dma_init() in main and try to use pvr_dma_transfer instead of sq_cpy. It just doesn't work. Any thoughts?

Ian_micheal
May 13th, 2004, 16:37
I like to help on that but It allways did the same to me. Black aura knows Pvr DMA very well genesis plus source has an example that could be handy to you.

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 17:51
Thanks, I'll see if I can find it.

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 18:08
Well, I took a look at his code and he doesn't even call pvr_dma_init but I guess everything works. And pvr_txr_load_dma in KOS 1.2 takes less parameters that the current subversion of KOS. There are parameters for a callback function that gets called when the dma transfer is completed. Ah, screw it. I'm going to eat, sleep, and make love to the gfx code until I am it's master.

Christuserloeser
May 13th, 2004, 18:42
Now I finally understand the DSNES team's silence.

Me too *:(


...a bit late and a really really bad start too, but I'd like to say "Welcome" to you to the DCEmu message boards! It's nice to see you round here!


PS:

I'd love to see a NesterDC update done by you with a new menu system and maybe new mappers and a slight speed up or so! I hope that you'll be able to contact Takayama Fumihiko so he could help you working on it.

Wish you all only the best,


Chris

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 19:11
Thanks for the welcome. I recently wrote both Ken and Takayama emails formally asking for their blessings. :) Ken's email address is gone and I haven't heard from Takayama yet.

I also wrote a message to Marcus Comstedt in the DCDev Yahoo Group to refresh his memory about our email conversation many months ago. I had previously asked him if he would consider allowing me to use all or parts of DreamSNES to improve Super Famicast and, as I remember correctly, he said he'd talk about it with the others. I'm anticipating he'll say no, but it is worth a try. Even though DreamSNES and Super Famicast use different snes9x versions, I'm sure it could help. We shall see.

Kamjin
May 13th, 2004, 21:29
Ian,
When I get back home I'll take a look over the code, and see if there's anything obvious, but I've already looked it over quickly and
didn't see anything that stuck out..

Scherzo, Yup the KOS threads do appear to eat alot of time, also
I've noticed that accessing the vram while not in a Vblank, even
when just writing frames eats alot of time. I guess this is probably
why a PSX emulator would be capable of reaching descent speeds..
If the 3d calls are translated directly to PVR functions.. there's no
penalty.. (Sorry just a little brainstorming)..

Back to the topic.. I had noticed alot of Byte access in the emulated
DMA engine, It would be a good idea to check , and get an idea of
the avrage tranfer sizes the functions are doing. Then see if it's
worth converting them to Dwords xfers, if they're used heavily
enough that might gain you a few hundred cycles /frame.

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 21:40
Thanks, Kamjin, I'll check the SNES DMA reads out.

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 23:01
I might have some very good news soon...

wraggster
May 13th, 2004, 23:19
oh yeah :)

a pdrom image for any new release would be cool :)

scherzo
May 13th, 2004, 23:35
This is better than that.

Here are my email transcriptions with Marcus Comstedt



"scherzox" <scherzo@sch3rz0.com> writes:


>> Hi, I'm Scherzo of Super Famicast. I talked to you quite a while back
>> about coding tips, DreamSNES status, and the possibility that I could
>> integrate some of what you've done with DreamSNES into Super Famicast.
>> You said you would talk with the rest of the team regarding this. I
>> was just wondering if you guys have considered it. If the answer is
>> no, that's fine.


Hi!

Thanks for reminding me. We discussed this and decided that the best
course of action would be to simply contribute our stuff to the
regular snes9x distro. That way anyone can use it just like the other
snes9x code.

We are in the process of commiting the code to the snes9x CVS, but
this will take some time as there is a bit of cleanup needed.
I can send you the CPU core right away if you like. Is there any
other part you were immediately interrested in?


// Marcus

Scherzo <scherzo@sch3rz0.com> writes:


>> Interesting. So you'll be merging in your sh4 cpu core and other sh4
>> specific code into the official snes9x code just in case someone,
>> besides us DC devers, needs to compile for that platorm? Pretty cool.


Yeah. Only the CPU core (and SA1) is SH4 specific, the other stuff is
written in C(++).



>> Yes, it would be great if I could get my hands on the cpu core before
>> you commit those changes.


Ok, I'm attaching it to this mail.



>> Also, if you have written any optimized sh4
>> routines for the functionality in gfx.cpp and it's related files, the
>> tile and sprite renderering routines, that would be nice too.


Nope, there we basically use the original C++ code as it is. Except
that we #ifdef out the parts that aren't used to avoid some runtime
checks.

I did a bugfix to the original sprite renderer (which dealt with
sprites in high-res mode, you could only see the bug in Tokimeki
Memorial's menu screen), but no optimizations that I can remember.


// Marcus

Again, thanks a lot. I really can't wait to try this out when I get home tonight. Do you think I'll have many problems dropping this into the 1.42 source tree that I've been using for Super Famicast? Do you know of any global functions or variables that have been added since 1.42 that is referenced in the code you provided? Of course, I'll find out when I get home and try it out, but I'd thought I'd just ask.

- Scherzo

wraggster
May 13th, 2004, 23:40
Holy smoke this is mAjor news, can i post on the front page?

Nice going my man :)

and a big thanks to the Dreamsnes team.

WaCk0
May 14th, 2004, 00:53
whoooa!! :o

Amazing news. Thats all that DC scene needs... teamwork! ;D

wraggster
May 14th, 2004, 01:16
Had to post this great news :)

WHurricane16
May 14th, 2004, 02:07
:o

DemoniusX
May 14th, 2004, 02:11
I am glad to see the scene spark up like a zippo lighter and have a bright flame :}. this
is great news to all of us Dc devoters. This is a dream come true, I was showing my brother
all the stuff that is in the works he is astounded! my brother is not easily amused but
he was when I showed him this. good luck on the project, hope you don't strain yourself
not good high blood pressure causes bad stuff, when you need a break take one, if you are
thristy drink and if you are hungry eat, NO RUSHING :}. (offtopic} kamjin I noticed you have
the Coder badge. I never seen your projects on the DC (none that I know of} may i as what you have coded,thanks.

Christuserloeser
May 14th, 2004, 02:24
*rolls himself a cigarette as thick as a finger and inhales deeply*

Really good news that is! *:)

@Wraggster: The PD ROMs compilation for DreamSNES/SuperFamicastv02 I am currently working on is progressing nicely.

Kamjin
May 14th, 2004, 06:20
That's a good bit of news! Not to mention scherzo's also got a little boost
of energy ;D

(offtopic Responce)
DemoniusX, Stuff I've done.. for the DC.. Not much so far..
here's a link http://homebrew.dcemulation.com/kamjin/
I'm still in the process of refreshing my memory, and re-learning
forgotten math.. last 7 years Most of the code I've written has been
ultra low level mostly assembly, like Bios's, Drivers, tools,and Diagnostics..

Kamjin
May 14th, 2004, 07:47
Ian,
I started looking over the code to NeoGeo there's a few things I noticed,
I just scanned in the Video section.. scattered around there are mults
by 2,8,16,128,256.. From what's in the sh4 spec a multipy takes 2-5 cycles
a shift operation takes 1, so there's a few places to gain some cycles.
.. Just a warning if you change them do them a few at a time.. for
some reason GCC sometimes changes the math operation order when you do.

In the tiles section.

The FlipX, and Y.. gotta think about this one a bit more, but in hardware
to to a flip we simply XOR the Column or Row counter to achive the
process.. to flip the entire screen (like those old cocktail arcade tables
when the 2nd player is up) you would just xor the video sections address
lines to the ram, creating an X-Y filp.. mY brain's a little groggy but maybe
a simmilar idea by simply modifying the counters,that will get rid of all those
shift+and instructions.

I'm also looking over the code in draw_screen1.. there might be a way to
get that to execute faster.. using ulongs instead of ushorts.. but tough
to figure a way not to break the Zoom.. and not add more code in
the to handle the change.. just to slow it down again..
to.. I'll keep looking it over if anything sparks in my brain I'll let you know..

Ian_micheal
May 14th, 2004, 08:40
Thanks Kamjin Very intresting. Allways good to get some one of your skill to look it over. ;)

scherzo
May 14th, 2004, 08:51
One thing about the division and multiplication by powers of 2... As much as we talk crap about GCC and how it poorly optimizes SH4 code, I did notice during my asm adventures at the beginning that GCC is smart enough to notice when it can save by shifting instead of actually multiplying. At least, that's what I saw. Maybe it doesn't always do that so you can play it safe by shifting anyways.

Also, I've been able to get the DSNES cpu core to compile BUT it doesn't work just yet. I need to recreate an offsets.h file for all the struct fields in snes9x. I have a function that will spit out the correct offsets to stdout during runtime, so that helps. But some of the offsets are too big for some of the relative addressing used in the asm. So what I'm doing now is going through one by one and moving troublesome struct members to the beginning of their structs, thereby keeping the relative address for those in range. It's moving along, but there's a lot. I hope it works.

Kamjin
May 14th, 2004, 09:34
It's fun to bash GCC!.. In most cases with a -O flag I've seen it
do the shift also, but I noticed cases where it didn't.. like where
two mults were side by side, or if you swap the mult for a shift
and you have to put brackets to maintain the order, that's the other
case.. actually what got me looking at the assembly originally..



Just in case you guys don't already have it.. the programmers
manual for the Sh4
http://www.renesas.com/avs/resource/japan/eng/pdf/mpumcu/e602156_sh4.pdf
This one has opcode timings, unlike the architechture manual.

Slight shift of converation.. KOS has a PVR_DMA functions to to load
Instrction Lists/Textrures.. which I've never got to work..
but the sh-4 has a DMAC on it as well which can read/write memory
same used to access the maple, does KOS have anything to support it
as far as memcopy? i remeber that it does support 64bit access..

Kamjin
May 14th, 2004, 09:58
Thanks Ian! although the Skill works both ways, I see guys like
you, and scherzo in the same way. You guys can take a piece of
code and have it ported and working in no time.. While I sit there
re-writing all sort of code because it just baffles me.. I can get the
rumble working.. create my own maple access routines..
but then get totally lost in writing a driver that fits into KOS ???..

Ian_micheal
May 14th, 2004, 14:00
[quote author=Kamjin link=board=dcemu;num=1082494155;start=90#94 date=05/14/04 at 07:47:28]Ian,
I started looking over the code to NeoGeo there's a few things I noticed,
I just scanned in the Video section.. scattered around there are mults
by 2,8,16,128,256.. From what's in the sh4 spec a multipy takes 2-5 cycles
a shift operation takes 1, so there's a few places to gain some cycles.
.. Just a warning if you change them do them a few at a time.. for
some reason GCC sometimes changes the math operation order when you do.
quote]

How would i go about changing this. I like to attempt it But Maybe if you could change one and i could work off the idea.

Any speed is needed if SFX is to be added back to this emulator.

Kamjin
May 14th, 2004, 20:52
sure no prob,

for instance in *video.c video_draw_spr()

* * *if (flipy) * * *// Y flip
* * *{
* * * * * *dy = -8;
* * * * * *//fspr += (code+1)*128 - 8 - (sy-oy)*8; orig line
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *fspr += ((code+1)<<7) - 8 - ((sy-oy)<<3);
* * * * * * * *}

I had to add brakets to maintain the proper order, since the compiler
doesn't treat the shift like a normal math routine..
if I just left (code+1)<<7 - 8, it would perfrom the 7-8 first.. and
here (sy-oy)<<3 if the brackets would be left out it would shift
the entire equasion and not just sy-oy. when you swap the mults
for the shift be careful to bracket them..

just in case you're not fammiliar with shift ops.. they're an east way
to do div/mult, shifiting simply shifts over the bits by the count you
specify.. each shift is a power of 2 so
<<1 = multiply x2 * * * * *>>1 = divide by 2
<<2 = *4 * * * * * * * * * * * >>2 = /4
<<3 = *8 * * * * * * * * * * * >>3 = /8
<<4 = *16 * * * * * * * * * * >>4 = /16
<<5 = *32 * * * * * * * * * * >>5 = /32
<<6= *64 * * * * * * * * * * >>6 = /64
and so on..

example:
0x05<<1 *which is the same as 5*2
5=00000101b shift all the bits left by one
it becomes 00001010b = 10 or 0x0a
and the opposite
8>>1
8=00001000b shift all right by 1
it becomes 00000100b = 4

to handle non power of two.. for instance 640
as in a plot pixel routine.
y=y*640
we divide the 640 into powers of 2
512 and 128 *(512+128=640)
*512 is the same as <<9
*128 is the same as <<7
so y=((y<<9)+(y<<7)); *//this saves 1-2 cycles over the mult

For divsion just shift the other way, but
y=y/640 isn't the same as y=((y>>9)-(y>>7));
so just use shifts for div's when using powers of
2.

scherzo
May 14th, 2004, 21:57
Well, I stayed up 'til 3am last night and basically ditched work today(don't worry, it's cool). I've got it all to compile but that doesn't mean that it's working. Right now I just get a black screen, no runtime errors. I can, however, see the FPS display. So part of it is working. I've quadruple checked things that were required to glue it all together. I also tried turning off the speed hacks CPU_SHUTDOWN and VAR_CYCLES. Nothing. I wrote Marcus to see if he has any insight. No response yet. There's a whole bunch of asm that's disabled in #if 0 blocks. Before I go touching anything in the asm and editing things I have no clue about, I wanna see what Marcus says first. I'll keep you guys posted.

wraggster
May 14th, 2004, 22:05
Lets hope for a quick fix to whatever is causing you problems

mastakilla
May 14th, 2004, 23:51
minor setback. Scherzo will overcome.

wraggster
May 16th, 2004, 23:52
hey i wonder how far Scerzo has got since we last were online

Kamjin
May 17th, 2004, 00:46
Probably re-wrote the whole thing in assembly by now
with the burst of energy he's got *;D

wraggster
May 17th, 2004, 01:06
hey hes a great coder, and learning fast too :)

Ian_micheal
May 17th, 2004, 01:52
sure no prob,

for instance in *video.c video_draw_spr()

* * *if (flipy) * * *// Y flip
* * *{
* * * * * *dy = -8;
* * * * * *//fspr += (code+1)*128 - 8 - (sy-oy)*8; orig line
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *fspr += ((code+1)<<7) - 8 - ((sy-oy)<<3);
* * * * * * * *}

I had to add brakets to maintain the proper order, since the compiler
doesn't treat the shift like a normal math routine..
if I just left (code+1)<<7 - 8, it would perfrom the 7-8 first.. and
here (sy-oy)<<3 if the brackets would be left out it would shift
the entire equasion and not just sy-oy. when you swap the mults
for the shift be careful to bracket them..

just in case you're not fammiliar with shift ops.. they're an east way
to do div/mult, shifiting simply shifts over the bits by the count you
specify.. each shift is a power of 2 so
<<1 = multiply x2 * * * * *>>1 = divide by 2
<<2 = *4 * * * * * * * * * * * >>2 = /4
<<3 = *8 * * * * * * * * * * * >>3 = /8
<<4 = *16 * * * * * * * * * * >>4 = /16
<<5 = *32 * * * * * * * * * * >>5 = /32
<<6= *64 * * * * * * * * * * >>6 = /64
and so on..

example:
0x05<<1 *which is the same as 5*2
5=00000101b shift all the bits left by one
it becomes 00001010b = 10 or 0x0a
and the opposite
8>>1
8=00001000b shift all right by 1
it becomes 00000100b = 4

to handle non power of two.. for instance 640
as in a plot pixel routine.
y=y*640
we divide the 640 into powers of 2
512 and 128 *(512+128=640)
*512 is the same as <<9
*128 is the same as <<7
so y=((y<<9)+(y<<7)); *//this saves 1-2 cycles over the mult

For divsion just shift the other way, *but
y=y/640 isn't the same as *y=((y>>9)-(y>>7));
so just use shifts for div's when using powers of
2.




big thanks just wondering if this is the complete post over at dcemu you said some thing about it being fully complete.

wraggster
May 17th, 2004, 20:14
any newsworthy updates Scherzo :)

scherzo
May 17th, 2004, 20:32
Yeah, I'm ready to make a release, I just want to test self booting. I tried last night but I made several CD coasters. I think it's because I'm using the newest version of Nero. I've read that some people can no longer burn good selfboot CDs after they installed Nero 6 and above. I'll get it worked out.

Other than that, the asm core is working. The speed increase is not as big as I would have wished. It's still slower than DreamSNES, but at least more games are playable with sound enabled. I also put in the option to change the sound quality. The lower settings produce rather buggy sound. I thought this was because of the asm core but it happened in the C core too. I put in mouse support a long time ago so you all can draw retarded pictures with Mario Paint or something. You can also disable the various background and sprite layers for added speed when certain layers are not that important.

After this release is out the door, I plan to rewrite the graphics rendering code in assembler and possibly use the Dreamcast ARM sound CPU to emulate the SNES sound CPU.

wraggster
May 17th, 2004, 20:37
Fantastic News :)

cant wait to see the fruits of your labor :)

Hopefully the other great coders who visit willhelp too.

WaCk0
May 17th, 2004, 21:33
After this release is out the door, I plan to rewrite the graphics rendering code in assembler and possibly use the Dreamcast ARM sound CPU to emulate the SNES sound CPU.
Its nice to see you got new energy to work on it. Thanks to keep Super Famicast alive, and best luck rewriting this ;D
I respect you for your perseverance.

Skyhawk
May 17th, 2004, 22:25
The DreamSNES team tried in the past to use the ARM for the sound processing also, but it turned out that the ARM was to slow for that job. They where very dissapointed of the power of the ARM. Maybe I can find back a forum post about that.

It is good to see, how hard you are working on Super Famicast. But I now realise that the DreamSNES team has walked about the same paths. Because later on they also wrote the CPU core in ASM and it didn't work out. So I think they really did try to make it fullspeed instead of just adding options and making it more pretty.

Ofcourse I still hope you can overcome the speed problems where the DreamSNES gave up to.

Ian_micheal
May 17th, 2004, 23:14
No real Confirm dreamsnes gave up. It still will be very hard, to get speed close to dreamsnes let alone beat it. *With time and lots of hard work it's Do-able if you love the system, and have the passion. Just have to save every cycle you can. Use every optimizing trick you know. And get every one in the scene to help this really does help more eyes the better one person cant do every thing or know every trick.

Going alone does not work to well and takes more time to do every thing. there are times, when working alone makes more progress other times it' does not.

I say start a topic detailing, what needs *to be done to Snes9x and all of us can look at parts and try to get it faster or save a cycle or 2 *some were.

Im trying to get this happening with neogeo it has worked pretty well. But All of use have strong points and weak points.. combine together i think were pretty powerfull force :).

Im Willing to help out and look it over any thing, i can do every now and then.

Support your passion for the project nice to see.

quzar
May 17th, 2004, 23:37
The DreamSNES team tried in the past to use the ARM for the sound processing also, but it turned out that the ARM was to slow for that job. They where very dissapointed of the power of the ARM. Maybe I can find back a forum post about that.

It is good to see, how hard you are working on Super Famicast. But I now realise that the DreamSNES team has walked about the same paths. Because later on they also wrote the CPU core in ASM and it didn't work out. So I think they really did try to make it fullspeed instead of just adding options and making it more pretty.

Ofcourse I still hope you can overcome the speed problems where the DreamSNES gave up to.

The ARM IS software overclockable, maybe that is the answer if it was literally too slow...

Ian_micheal
May 17th, 2004, 23:45
it's only 25mhz if i remember right i posted the real doc on it once. Every one stated 45mhz they wrote it to match that figger.

But in the real world if i remember the real doc it's 25mhz only But like you said software overclockable. If we had what the dreamsnes team did on it and re did the maths to suit the real speed of the chip we might get some were.

I dont know if they knew it was 25 mhz or not because on there forum they said 45mhz not that case.

quzar
May 17th, 2004, 23:50
it is 24mhz on its own, but is overclockable up to 99 (or 100?) but nobody knows if it can actually go up to that speed.

scherzo
May 18th, 2004, 01:44
Even 24mhz ain't that bad actually. If it's overclockable, even the better. It would be a very dedicated task which could be written in ARM assembler. There's much more people that know ARM than SH4 because of Gameboy Advance. If we could get someone like Loopy to help, that would be awesome. Of course, Loopy is plenty busy with his kickbutt project.

Does the ARM have its own memory like the PVR or does it use system memory? If it has its own memory then I'd worry about how much would data would have to be sent back and forth between that memory and the SH4 because then you'd have a similar slowdown when sending too much to video memory.

I know this might sound crazy, but maybe a whole new emulator could be written from scratch in assembler using snes9x as a guide. Im pretty sure that's what Loopy did with SNES Advance.

I'm all for teamwork. Yeah, at the beginning I wanted to work on it all myself, do everything I could by myself. Now I'm hitting roadblocks like DSNES did. Anyone is perfectly free to download the source and analyze it, screw around with it.

What would you all think about me opening a sourceforge project for Super Famicast? Then I could carefully which coders have CVS access and we could really make this a team effort.

WHurricane16
May 18th, 2004, 01:59
What would you all think about me opening a sourceforge project for Super Famicast? Then I could carefully which coders have CVS access and we could really make this a team effort.

If you look back at your old forum topics on the "fake" DC Emu, this was the route we thought you were going when you first mentioned the project ;)

scherzo
May 18th, 2004, 02:08
Sorry I made you think that so soon in the game. I also recall saying that I wanted to see what I could do with it before officially colaborating with other coders. Not that I didn't welcome help. I just feel like Super Famicast is my baby. But the source has been there since day one. Yes, I recall you working on the netplay code and that's not forgotten, just on hold until later.

Why do you call DCEmu fake?

lantus
May 18th, 2004, 02:14
Scherzo, it might be possible to have your codebase included into the official Snes9x CVS tree - which is only open to developers at this time. If your interested, drop funkyass a pm/email on the official Snes9x board.

WHurricane16
May 18th, 2004, 02:25
Why do you call DCEmu fake?

I made a post on my site some days ago about this DC Emu being the "real" DC Emu, so I've been calling the other one fake :) I don't care for oo7cheatah much, so I pick on DC Emu alot. :)

scherzo
May 18th, 2004, 02:29
I'm not sure if that's necessary right now since I assume that's what is happening to DreamSNES right now. Kind of like being eaten by the big monster, or, better put, returning to the Architect. LOL

quzar
May 18th, 2004, 02:45
Even 24mhz ain't that bad actually. If it's overclockable, even the better. It would be a very dedicated task which could be written in ARM assembler. There's much more people that know ARM than SH4 because of Gameboy Advance. If we could get someone like Loopy to help, that would be awesome. Of course, Loopy is plenty busy with his kickbutt project.

Does the ARM have its own memory like the PVR or does it use system memory? If it has its own memory then I'd worry about how much would data would have to be sent back and forth between that memory and the SH4 because then you'd have a similar slowdown when sending too much to video memory.

I know this might sound crazy, but maybe a whole new emulator could be written from scratch in assembler using snes9x as a guide. Im pretty sure that's what Loopy did with SNES Advance.

I'm all for teamwork. Yeah, at the beginning I wanted to work on it all myself, do everything I could by myself. Now I'm hitting roadblocks like DSNES did. Anyone is perfectly free to download the source and analyze it, screw around with it.

What would you all think about me opening a sourceforge project for Super Famicast? Then I could carefully which coders have CVS access and we could really make this a team effort.

The ARM has its own memory 2mb afaik just like the PVR. It would be cool to have a sourceforge project for it. and starting it from scratch in asm would probably take longer and not work as well as just continually rewriting parts of it in asm.

WaCk0
May 18th, 2004, 14:29
Nice V2 scherzo. Yeah, its a bit slower than DreamSNES but still a nice release. I really liked. And I think your're doing right!

wraggster
May 18th, 2004, 18:25
great release, keep em coming ;)

Christuserloeser
May 18th, 2004, 19:27
There was a discussion with Heliophobe, BlackAura and Ian Micheal here in this forum topic (http://www.dcemulation.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=44864&postdays=0&postorder=asc&sta rt=200) about the sound chip thing. It's a great idea and I don't think they thought about overclocking it.

scherzo
May 18th, 2004, 19:42
Thanks for the link to that topic. Sometimes I foget everything that's been talked about. I think it would be worth the time to experiment with the ARM a little. Like write a couple of demos that test basic functionality and also push it's limits a little. We'd at least gain some knowledge, right?

Christuserloeser
May 18th, 2004, 19:56
I love your energy :)

wraggster
May 18th, 2004, 19:59
well you only get somewhere by trying, hopefully the scene as a whole can help and in turn do the scene a favour :)

vipor231
May 19th, 2004, 03:43
great release scherzo.i love the menus and the swapping of the cds.that is a good feature.you will beat dreamsnes in no time.if you can find a way of getting that speed faster you pretty much did it.i like how you go pack into the menu and you get a screenshot of the game on the left.that is awesome.keep up the great work :)

wraggster
June 1st, 2004, 00:16
any new news scherzo :)

dice
June 6th, 2004, 13:24
Man this site rocks, I didn't know that so much was still being done for the dc until I joined here.

wraggster
June 7th, 2004, 19:05
yep and it will only get better too :)

scherzo
June 7th, 2004, 19:20
any new news scherzo :)
Hey, I'm still around. I've been working on Super Famicast and I've really begun serious work NesterDC SE. I've already added zip support and the ability to play NSFs. I'll probably be making a nice jukebox feature to enhance this new functionality.

I might also do a full re-port of NNNesterJ to deal with the compatibility issues in NesterDC 7.1.

That's all the news I have for now.

wraggster
June 7th, 2004, 19:22
ooh nice :)

does it help to try and port different emus to solve different problems and gain experiance in other fields?

scherzo
June 7th, 2004, 19:38
Yeah, it does, but I've already messed with Nester source in the past with my port for the GP32. So I'm gaining experience, but not that much. I just want to have a NES emulator on DC that's as close to perfect as possible.

Also, by downloading the latest source of NNNesterJ, I found that there is code in it for emulating PC Engine and Gameboy. However, it's disabled by default. Perhaps that section of code wasn't up to release quality so they left it out. Of course, I'm compiling the windows version right now with PCE emulation enabled to see how good (or bad) it is.

wraggster
June 7th, 2004, 19:55
cool, pce emulation is an area we do need an update :)

curt_grymala
June 7th, 2004, 23:17
This is fantastic news, Scherzo. You came out of nowhere (to those of us completely oblivious to any scene other than DC), and came on strong. You are doing some amazing things for the scene, and I am really looking forward to all of your future releases. Super Famicast has already exceeded my expectations, and it's only your second attempt at it. Keep it up. ;D

guymelef
June 8th, 2004, 04:09
is there anyway we can get an advance compatibility report so we can add to KRYPTS and CAPTAIN SKYHAWKS cheat file. *I have been adding to it slowly but cd theft has left me bereft of my some of my archives including the nester cheat file and my dreamsnes GG patch disk
and thanks to Christuserloeser for helping me get back on track

Christuserloeser
June 8th, 2004, 07:59
This is fantastic news, Scherzo. *You came out of nowhere (to those of us completely oblivious to any scene other than DC), and came on strong. *You are doing some amazing things for the scene, and I am really looking forward to all of your future releases. *Super Famicast has already exceeded my expectations, and it's only your second attempt at it. *Keep it up. * ;D

...I'd like to second that :)


Chris

scherzo
June 8th, 2004, 14:28
is there anyway we can get an advance compatibility report so we can add to KRYPTS and CAPTAIN SKYHAWKS cheat file. I have been adding to it slowly but cd theft has left me bereft of my some of my archives including the nester cheat file and my dreamsnes GG patch disk
and thanks to Christuserloeser for helping me get back on track
Well, I'm still in the middle of re-porting NNNesterJ. But if everything goes well, it's pretty safe to assume that the new port will have the same level of compatibility as NNNesterJ 0.23.

Eric
June 8th, 2004, 17:35
Well i would like to say that you are doing some very hard work i would like to say for 2004 that its amazing how far of a progress you got on the Snes emu and i believe myself how more progress will becoming now we already have a Nes emulator but i am not putting that project down as i am going to download that cause of new features and other things. there is one thing i would recommend and i am not sure if it has been asked i have MsPacMan on nintendo and this is a game i used to play with ma back in the old days the controls aren't very compatible in Nester DC and i hope it can be repaired for your next version

Bare with me here my punctuation is crap

Thanks

Eric

Christuserloeser
June 8th, 2004, 17:54
@Scherzo: A guy named 16Bits joined in recently and he says that he's working on an SH4 ASM core for the NES 6502. You might want to contact him about that. Also there's an open source code out for the 6502 core in DC compatible SH2 too. Third try, one more time:

http://www.dcemu.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=dcemu;action=display;num=1083323639; start=120#120

As Ian Micheal posted here (http://www.dcemu.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=dcemu;action=display;num=1083323639; start=45) that Gleam (http://www.dcemulation.com/dcemu-gleam.htm) used a 6502 SH2 ASM cpu core for NES emulation. The source is available. Maybe that'll help to get a NesterDC speed up too ?

I still don't know if that emu (Gleam) runs at a reasonable speed but one should not only judge by its end result anyway, as the core could be fast even if the overall emulation speed wasn't fast at all.
Maybe a optimized NesterDC C core is faster than this old SH2 ASM core?

And last but not least the NES uses nothing but an older version of the 65c816 CPU that you already have in SHx ASM.
I wonder because I thought I've read that Nintendo had the idea of an downward NES compatible SuperNES so they modified the NES core for the SNES a bit but it is almost the same CPU as far as I know.
Don't know if it's interesting at all cause they might differ on some key issues and I bet there were some ppl that already would have noticed that fact.

Chris

guymelef
June 8th, 2004, 20:36
hey chris are you suggesting a Muilti platform DC emu. one for nes and snes.
If It were possible then I think that the DC community would be the first one with it. and since we are talking about nester and snes9x two extremly kickass emus.........WAIT a minute i guess you could just use sbi's and put them individually on the same disc. and cd space might get cramped anyway.
but maybe, it's just crazy enough to work

Christuserloeser
June 9th, 2004, 00:49
Actually I've not thought of an multi platform emulator 4 DC, I was just guessing that it could be that the CPU cores could be somewhat compatible - all the other stuff (special Memory Mappers, VDP, sound units etc) are completly different. I'd always prefer a single system emulator over an Multi platform emu anyway - but who knows what tomorrow brings...?

Yes, SBIs are pretty easy to do your own Multi platform emu disc.

Chris

curt_grymala
June 9th, 2004, 02:45
hey chris are you suggesting a Muilti platform DC emu. one for nes and snes.
If It were possible then I think that the DC community would be the first one with it. and since we are talking about nester and snes9x two extremly kickass emus.........WAIT a minute i guess you could just use sbi's and put them individually on the same disc. and cd space might get cramped anyway.
but maybe, it's just crazy enough to work

First of all, you would have to have an incredible amount of roms in order to fill up an entire CD with nothing but SNES and NES roms (especially since Super Famicast already supports zipped roms, and Nester SE will also support zipped roms).

Secondly, there already sort of is a multi-console emu for the PC. It's called MESS. Many of it's components have been ported to the DC, but I don't think it would really be possible to combine more than one of them together.

guymelef
June 9th, 2004, 07:05
I used mess once about 3 years ago and it was a total mess. *and it just got an update today so maybe I'll hop on over to zophar.net and check it out. *oh yeah there was also DARCDC what ever happened to that? what about the mamedc stuff haven't heard from them either. Those single game mame was cool especially if we got some sbi's for them.

DemoniusX
June 9th, 2004, 08:26
I would like to add that not only is scherzo a great coder, he is a great friend. We talk alot on AIM and he is a fudging awesome person. I notice that pce emulation is possible in your agenda, that made my head rool in the back of my head in excitment, to play soldier blade and Legendary Axe on my TV again after having a broken Turbo :( would bring oh so happy days in my life again, Turbo Graphix was a great system, I miss it :(. I also love the NES wish them systems could come back, DAMN YOU 3D Gamers!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol.

paulokhm
June 9th, 2004, 08:49
im new here, then hi all, keep the good work ;D hhmm im not new at all, but its my first post::)

scherzo, let me tell you something: SFC is very good. im not a coder, then you can say its good for me, therere chances to do it very better. But i love emus, i just dont play DC games at all, only emus/HB, for 2 years or so. you can say i dont know about programming or coding, but you cant say i dont know about good emus! and your SFC is fairly good!
i hear only good impressions about SFC in all brazillian and south american emu forums, emu fans and snes fans are very happy with SFC. then, its time to forget the problems, and think about how good you are, and about how good is see DCemu comunnity working togheter.

keep the good work, you will have more and more sucess, but only if you believe in yourself.

Be True to Yourself!
paulokhm
http://emudreamcast.cjb.net

curt_grymala
June 9th, 2004, 12:37
what about the mamedc stuff haven't heard from them either. Those single game mame was cool especially if we got some sbi's for them.

Well, WOWPack was the last MAME emu to be released (around Xmas last year). Ian Micheal is pretty much the main driving force behind MAME emulation on the DC at this point, and he has pretty much decided to quit messing with the single game emus. He has mentioned that he will do an update for the WowPack at some point in the future (possibly even a sequel that would play 90's classics), but he has so much other stuff on his plate right now, that I don't see that happening before this Xmas, at least.

Eric
June 9th, 2004, 17:34
I think that Ghouls and Goblins game on his site was supposed to be as SGA i have no clue and i have no clue if he is working on that anymore

wraggster
April 2nd, 2005, 22:06
shouldnt be long now till we see scherzos famed Nester DC Se release and and i know somone is having a poke around with super famicast ;)

scrabbus
April 2nd, 2005, 22:07
The idea of a new famicast is more than great, but the idea of a new mame (one thats playable on the DC!!!) is just fab

obelisk
June 28th, 2005, 22:49
Bump For Dreamcast.

Christuserloeser
June 29th, 2005, 21:23
i know somone is having a poke around with super famicast ;)

I wonder who could that be...

obelisk
June 29th, 2005, 21:24
me too.
...
:)

obelisk
June 29th, 2005, 22:06
It's like xmas all the time on Dreamcast.
Magical curious wonderment.
Behind the scenes it's hella hard work.
But toys Abound and BOY DO THEY ROCK!
Thank You Santas!!!!!!!
Mega Praise Units to the Coders, and Scene!

Christuserloeser
June 30th, 2005, 00:42
LOL :D You're right. A BIG thank you to all the coders! :)