PSP vs PS1 iso backing up

[dagger89]

With all the recent iso talk, WHY is it illegal to back up PSP isos, yet perfectly legal to backup PS1 and PS2 isos (of games YOU OWN)? I just don't see the sense of it, how can one be illegal, yet not the other.

I understand why DVD movie copying is illegal (copy-protection, encryption, etc), but not the PSP. Surely if the UMDs were copy-protected, Sony would have changed the scheme (like they do with Arccos and DVDs), but the same dumpers from a year ago still dump the newest games, without a problem.

This leads me to believe there is NO copy protection, and thus as "legal" as PS1/PS2 isos are to backup..


Any one care to comment?

[joshisposer]

I *heard* that is the type of disc that makes it illegal for UMD. The type of encryption or something makes it illegal to copy.
and then, imo, i think that since it is so easy to use and abuse that it is illegal. Because, psp iso's are widespread and very easy to load up where as ps1/2 you have to do some work for it to load up and work, granted on the ps1 you needed either tape/paper clip lol.

[F9zDark]

In my opinion they are the same thing. In the US it is legal to make a backup copy of game discs one owns. Other countries may have more or less restrictions on this.

However, I believe that if we can openly talk about PS1 ISOs around here, we should be allowed to talk about PSP ISOs, so long as:

1)We are not talking about downloading them
2)We are not talking about any form of piracy
3)We are not talking about freely distributing them to others

I haven't seen anyone banned for just mentioning ISOs yet, but I have seen some people banned for asking about where to download ISOs.

But I would suggest we wait to see what Wraggster says about all of this, before we embark onto another discussion about this.

[dagger89]

The PS1 is much easier to rip and play.... Especially with PC emulators... As long as your PC runs, it can pretty much handle a PSX emulator....

However, you actually need a PSP to play PSP games at this point....

And if there was encryption, why wouldn't Sony have changed it, like with DVDs every time it is hacked..... If that was the case, you'd see a new dumper released every week or so, but I can still use dumpers from June 05.....

Edit:
F9zDark: I've aided in helping someone run A "LEGALLY" Backed-up copy and was given a warning, so apparently, no PSP iso talk is permitted... BUT WHY?!!!

[F9zDark]

F9zDark: I've aided in helping someone run A "LEGALLY" Backed-up copy and was given a warning, so apparently, no PSP iso talk is permitted... BUT WHY?!!!

I don't know, the rules are enforced nearly to the T here. I hope that we may have some leeway in the future, but then again, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[SSaxdude]

Yeah, I don't see why people aren't allowed to back up their PSP games to save battery life and preserve the life of their laser in the PSP.

[Cap'n 1time]

backing up your umd's is no more illegal than backing up your ps1. its just the talk that comes with the backup discussion.

The information we gave requires that you without any doubt own A ps1 disc. There was really no way you would require that information for any form of piracy.

Also if you are pirating your ps1 games (and we dont encourage pirating of any game) hopefully it will do less damage to the financial department of these companies that produced these games. ANY talk of ANY type of piracy is against our policy and swift punishment will come to those that obey our rules.

Finally we have no problems with umd iso and backup discussion ELSEWHERE. You are breaking no law. ONCE AGAIN!!! You are free to do it ELSEWHERE. sure its handy, and im sure many of you have only good intentions, but there are far more on the internet that would love to come to dcemu and discuss more immoral, illegal practices. We are actually protecting you from warez whoring morons from spamming torrent links and asking 10,000 times where to dl the latest cso releases.

In conclusion, if your intent is pure, you have my permission to discuss and learn about back ups ELSEWHERE, but here do not. And before you ask, you dont have freedom of speech, you signed that you would follow our policies when you joined our forums. respect our policies for they are for your own good.

PS, the warnings we give for this type of discussion are typically minimal unless it is obviously for abuse.

[m0th]

Good god people, stop beating a dead horse. DCEMU is NOT going to change their stance on it and I dont blame them. Its not a matter of morals and ethics. DCEMU's mods more than likely dont give a rats ass whether there's piracy in the world, what they do care about is the legality aspect of it and such talk on a board gets a few extra eyes watching it, no not the feds, not your local sheriff, but prolly Sony's attorneys looking for enough dirt to shutdown a board that may jeopardize their profits. Follow the rules, pay attention to the forums and you will quickly see who the right wing piracy is a sin people from the more left wing who gives a crap people (like myself) who may help you if you ask for it.

Oh yeah to Splodger and everyone like you, stop with the holier than thou stuff. I don't know where you live but in America police have better things to do than give a shit about piracy. A crime is only a crime when someone actually feels violated and decides to do something about it. I doubt Sony cares that Jimmy Smith just downloaded a few ISOs and now he doesn't have to buy the games. No they care more about going after the people that distributed to him and the people that told him where to go and how to use it. Kinda like how drugs work. Go after the dealer not the user.

EDIT: Ha! capn musta posted while I was writing this... Yeah, What he said. Excellent points. BTW capn or any other mod, is it ok to act individually and in private messages to discuss questionable matters? ie. if so and so asks me personally how they can get bios files to run an emulator. Can I personally offer such a thing but not give a link to it in public?

[dagger89]

K, but how come people are allow to ask how they can backup their PS2 games for PCSX2, but not "How do I backup Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories"

In both cases, there isn't a shadow of doubt the person has the original game, and both can be used for necessary reasons Remember the patches that needed to be applied to newer games before devhook came around earlier this year? Most of the time, a dump of your UMD was needed so that it would run... Now, of course I can see the possibility for illegal action, but you would simply be using to play your own game....

*sigh*... Most countries need better and more clear laws regarding this... Their vagueness only serves to hinder...


EDIT:
I AM NOT ASKING DCEMU TO CHANGE POLICIES, BUT RATHER WHY it is like this.... (I have my own sites for that stuff, lol)

[m0th]

You just brought up a valid point. You DO NOT need to "backup" your PS2 games to play in the emulator, you can use the original disc. So such talk SHOULD NOT be allowed regarding PS2 backups. PSP UMD ripping talk should be allowed but not until there's a reason as in a PSP emulator shows up cos its not like you can shove the umd disc into your CDROM drive.

[dejkirkby]

I'm jumping to splodger's defence here.
Recently, I was absolutely lamblasted in two seperate threads on this issue. In British copyright law, it is ILLEGAL to have any copies of digital media, aside from the one copy you purchased. even if you make a back-up with all good intentions, it is still illegal. The only exception is with music. You can now rip and encode your music for PERSONAL USE ONLY. This exception was only relaxed a week or so ago.
So we are not being holier than thou. And why is it such a bad thing to frown at law-breaking. Whether we like or agree to the law, we have to abide by it.
If someone held up a shop at gunpoint, or beat someone up in the street or downloads an iso, they are all law-breakers. But yet you all jump to the defence of the downloader. Why is that? Has he not still broke the law?

[Mr. Shizzy]

If someone held up a shop at gunpoint, or beat someone up in the street or downloads an iso, they are all law-breakers. But yet you all jump to the defence of the downloader. Why is that? Has he not still broke the law?


LOL. I'm not even going to comment on my opinion on this subject. but c'mon, lets not get rediculous with the examples.:rolleyes: There is a HUGE difference between violent and non violent crimes. LOL

[dejkirkby]

LOL. I'm not even going to comment on my opinion on this subject. but c'mon, lets not get rediculous with the examples.:rolleyes: There is a HUGE difference between violent and non violent crimes. LOL

Maybe the examples are exagerated, but the point is they are all crimes yet a lot people on this site jump to defend the downloader.

[splodger15]

Oh yeah to Splodger and everyone like you, stop with the holier than thou stuff. I don't know where you live but in America police have better things to do than give a shit about piracy. A crime is only a crime when someone actually feels violated and decides to do something about it.

There is crime all over the world NOT JUST IN AMERICA

Because it sounds like what your saying is there is just crime in America

Open your eyes and read the news for once the whole world has crime in it.

[Mr. Shizzy]

Maybe the examples are exagerated, but the point is they are all crimes yet a lot people on this site jump to defend the downloader.



I know bro. I'm just saying it's laughable to compare someone who illegaly downloads a game to a violent criminal. There is a big difference there. That was my only point. Other than that, I completley agree with you.

[dejkirkby]

I know bro. I'm just saying it's laughable to compare someone who illegaly downloads a game to a violent criminal. There is a big difference there. That was my only point. Other than that, I completley agree with you.

Thanks. Over the last few days, I've kinda felt isolated on afew of these threads for not condoning or tolerating piracy.

[flying_dutchman]

I just wanted to say I think the only reason you would've felt that way was because you came a across a hypocrite.
I'm sure you remember the comment I made. (However I'm not sure if you read the fact I attempted to take those same words back because you said you simply have made a mistake in the past. this concidering the thread was deleted)
I am not a bad person I just hate people measuring with 2 different sizes which makes me want to jump in the discussion.

Back on topic,
This thread is dead-on. For one I hate the fact that one thing is allowed yet the other is not.
Basicly when you use an emulator/modchip to run a region protected movie in the PSP would be Illegal in most countries (australia recently changed this and makes a pioneer out of itself if you ask me)
The region protection is a play in a monopoly game and is asking for trouble.

Also recently someone said the reason game prices are expensive is because of hackers/pirates.
I believe it's the other way around.
I take myself for example, I am not lying when I say I test games by downloading them because I do own UMD's. Then after I buy I also place the games on my stick to be able to take more games with me with less carrying space.
I know none of you have to believe me but I feel if prices weren't so high the games would be sold in a larger number.
I always wait to buy a game second hand.

To say something about mentioning these things here without causing "torrent-spamming" it seems to work well at maxconsole in my knowledge.
Nobody talks of download sites yet everyone talks of ripping.

I feel I'm jammering so I'll shut up for now.

[mikebeaver]

Basicly when you use an emulator/modchip to run a region protected movie in the PSP would be Illegal in most countries (australia recently changed this and makes a pioneer out of itself if you ask me)
The region protection is a play in a monopoly game and is asking for trouble.


What emulator are you using that allows the use of different region UMD movies? I was'nt aware of any.

[dejkirkby]

I tried to reply to you in the other thread, but it got locked. I remember the comment and also the half-hearted apology. I genuinely had never heard of "unclekracker" until I was given the link to the DevHook Installer, and I certainly never knew what kind of things he did. As I said, I will be wary of all rar's and zips with that as a password.
But the fact is I don't need your opinion to validate that I like to live my life in the constraints of the law. Anyone else's actions are their own business, I have nor wish to have any control over them. The only people I look out for are my family and I.
I enjoy this site and the fact that it tries, although sometimes fails, to stay legal. This is a rare thing in the internet age nowadays. And I, along with several, albeit uncommonly silent members would like it to stay that way. Like I said I have absolutely no qualms with virus.exe. In fact I believe he to be quite a talented coder. I just questioned the format he decided to display these talents. Likewise, you seem to be quite an intelligent person and I certainly don't want a flame war with you, but I try to keep legal and don't feel I should be hounded for it, despite the fact I made an error of judgement regarding the DevHook installer.

[flying_dutchman]

And you are absolutely right. Flaming you for keeping up legal activities is just plain wrong.
As for my "half-hearted apology" I just can't help questioning the users of applications like Devhook.
But I tried before and I'll say it again; If you speak the truth about obtaining that particular file then with this a Heartfelt Apology.

But don't you agree that even if it is illegal to make a backup it's laws are just an outrage?
I'm not talking about downloading I understand your stand on that.
But backing up what you own does not hurt anyone.
And to allow sharing Devhook promotes the use of backups because in my knowledge about 90% of it's users have it for that purpose.
So why allow emulators but at the same time condemn talk about ISO's?

[F9zDark]

Problem is m0th and Dejkirkby, if you will read this: http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43998

Wraggster posted about the PS1P emulator for the PSP, in which that post clearly mentions ISO support for PS1 games. There was no disclaimer at the bottom regarding ISOs, and by UK law (where this site is based) any backup of digital media constitutes of a breaking of the law. So in other words that includes ALL emulators and roms.

This site is primarily an emulator site. Now, you tell me , if the law is so important to follow when it comes to using UMD dumps of games people own, why is it the law means nothing when it comes to emulation. As you said, ALL digital media, save music, is illegal to backup. Therefore anyone in the UK using emulators that cannot utilize the original game cart, cd or dvd is thus breaking the law.

So that also establishes that the ISO talk around here is not permitted because it has anything to do with the law (as I just proved, the very existence of this site is breaking UK law, as many emulators require illegaly made 'backups' of the games they can play). If ISO talk being denied here is to 'protect' us from pirates (as Cap'n 1Time said), then so be it. If its because of legal reasons then this site might as well shut down, because from what you tell me, its not operating within the constraints of UK law.

[dejkirkby]

I understand the back-up point, and to a degree I believe that people should be allowed a back-up for 'archive and protecting your purchase' purpose. With that said, I can also understand why the law is in place. If you can make your own back-up copy, the next logical step is then distributing that copy, although not necessarily for financial gain. Which ever way you look at it, this would have a detrimental effect on the gaming industry because a good percentage of people would be downloading back-ups rather than purchasing the game.
Now I can assure you that I use DevHook for running UMD's. I have a well-paid job and am fortunate to be able to afford the games I want. That's not to put down anyone else. Like I've stated many times, if people want to download games, good luck to them and as long as they keep it to themselves it's not my business. And I wholly agree That a large percentage of DevHook users probably use iso's or cso's. But the fact is the vast majority of these people do so without ever mentioning it on this site, thus maintaining the integrity of DCEmu.
With regards to the emulator/roms/iso situation. I, along with lots of other people can see the glaringly obvious points which can be construed as double-standards. But it is not my place to change this rule. perhaps a moderator could explain this better.
I hope this has put my views across clearer. I know I can be hot-headed and say things in temper (such as the insta-ban shit, sorry again virus.exe), but I'm fiercely protective of DCEmu and, although it's not my site, I class it as my PSP homepage.
I hope you stick around here at DCEmu, I've really enjoyed this chance to have a decent discussion about iso's without promoting them. Thank you.

[flying_dutchman]

Well as a last post on this I think time will tell if the rules will change here at DCemu.
(now that I've registered I might as well check in from time to time since I see it all over google all the time when looking for news)

Anyway I to can be hot-headed and this discussion certainly cleared up a lot unlike the previous one.
My opinion however does not change and I feel the rules should be adjusted, but you're right that's up to the mods.
You can't blame people for trying to change things though.
It's obvious that people like dagger and dark do enjoy coming to this site otherwise they simply would move on to the next.
Which to me sound like time for improvements to make the site grow even more.
Again the talk about ISO's does not have to come hand in hand with piracy as to me a real pirate NEVER buys a game.
And don't get me wrong I admit I download games, but I also buy them so I do try and support somewhat. (This goes for music and movies too btw.)

Anyway I enjoyed this discussion too, maybe we'll have some nice ones in the future.

On a final note I give a theory of mine. May sound like a fantasy and completely hypothetical but just think about it for a minute. (I know plenty will dissagree)
I think that in the future things might change in the world of the internet, where the price for your connection will go up in exchange for available downloads. That is if piracy keeps growing the way it does.
Either that or no one will make any money of anything anymore and no games or movies etc. will be produced (atleast no good ones).
I still believe a problem like that could be prevented by lowering prices all together. (I mean $600 for a playstation console, is Sony out of their minds?)
Making money is one thing but the current situation is just crazy.

[dagger89]

Well as a last post on this I think time will tell if the rules will change here at DCemu.
(now that I've registered I might as well check in from time to time since I see it all over google all the time when looking for news)

Anyway I to can be hot-headed and this discussion certainly cleared up a lot unlike the previous one.
My opinion however does not change and I feel the rules should be adjusted, but you're right that's up to the mods.
You can't blame people for trying to change things though.
It's obvious that people like dagger and dark do enjoy coming to this site otherwise they simply would move on to the next.
Which to me sound like time for improvements to make the site grow even more.
Again the talk about ISO's does not have to come hand in hand with piracy as to me a real pirate NEVER buys a game.
And don't get me wrong I admit I download games, but I also buy them so I do try and support somewhat. (This goes for music and movies too btw.)

Anyway I enjoyed this discussion too, maybe we'll have some nice ones in the future.

On a final note I give a theory of mine. May sound like a fantasy and completely hypothetical but just think about it for a minute. (I know plenty will dissagree)
I think that in the future things might change in the world of the internet, where the price for your connection will go up in exchange for available downloads. That is if piracy keeps growing the way it does.
Either that or no one will make any money of anything anymore and no games or movies etc. will be produced (atleast no good ones).
I still believe a problem like that could be prevented by lowering prices all together. (I mean $600 for a playstation console, is Sony out of their minds?)
Making money is one thing but the current situation is just crazy.

To be honest I think money has nothing to do with it, and all to do with it for most people... For example, say people download the newest, crappiest puzzle game. Why would they do it? Not because they don't feel like paying for a game, but rather, they know that they wouldn't even buy it in the first place, and the game company wouldn't "lose a sale"...

Of course, I'm not advocating this kind of talk on DCemu, but there should be a set standard (ie: System X ROM talk is not allowed at all because encryption has to be broken, but System Y is ok because the ISOs are unprotected)....

IMO, there should either be a set standard, or NO ISO/BACKUP (Of any kind) TALK AT ALL... It just seems odd that its acceptable to dump PS2 isos when not necessary, yet not being able to talk about dumping PSP isos when necessary (if a patch is needed to run it on a certain firmware)....

[flying_dutchman]

Had to get back to this thread lol, I like this discussion it's quite comfortable.

I agree fully when you say no talk at all if certain talk is disaproved.
Which is why I think those rules should be changed.
What I read is that using copyrighted material in this manner is only allowed when something is "abandonware", something the PS1 or PS2 is not.

What you said about downloading is exactly the reason why I download. I don't want to pay $50 for a game I only play for a week or even less.
I hate to fall into repetition but the emulators are used by many for ISO's (downloaded or backed up themselves).
And so DCemu has a lot of users because of it.
Someone browses around, sees something they like and want to know how to use it. So they register and another user is aquired, mainly because of programs like devhook.
I know DCemu doesn't make money through their users but they wish to grow don't they?
Why not get involved in anything related to the emulators used in the forums.
It's either that or, like you say dagger, stop all together.

But maybe it's all easy to say for me since I originally come from the Netherlands and the laws are quite different there. Since earlier this year I have been in the US and although laws are stronger they still seem milder then the UK.
So it could all be a mentality thing.
Or DCemu had bad experiences with the law.
I don't know, I guess it would be nice if a Mod could clarify as to why these topics are not allowed here.

[dagger89]

TBH, I can't see it being the "law" that prevents it....have the 10 million psp iso sites been shut down recently, no... Only sites that host illegal files.... Not to mention law varys country by country.... (And if "law" is involved, then I see some other illegal stuff going on, that should be taken care of)

Hmmm... no straight answer yet.... damn... I was really hoping for an answer, but everything so far is just guesses or wrong answers....

[m0th]

dejkirkby, you honestly will live by ALL laws no matter what they are? What if they passed a law that conflicted with your lifestyle, morals, religion? Where do you draw the line?

And I think when you are referring to everyone defending the downloader.... hmm maybe because they do the downloading. Sorry for ya that there's not many people like you, you can relate with.

[belialone]

i think its not good to force people to allow iso talk
cuz its something you have to be careful with
dcemu made their point and thats it
ok i see the point emus are good isos are bad
but look at it like that, emus are a great way to play games for a certain system
isos are great to backup and savely store your original
but emus wont break any law until they use a copyrighted bios or something
isos instead are in most countries restricted or forbidden
its good to talk about emus because they are just selfwritten software
but its bad to talk about isos because they contain protected code

[mikebeaver]

Basically sony watch the net quite closely, if they see a great deal of iso talk on DCemu they will try and shut it down, now none of us would want that now would we?
So leave the iso talk to another forum, it's not like this is the only place you can get info from.
We all feel comfortable on this forum, so if it aint broke....dont try to fix it.

[C0R3F1GHT3R]

lol if u wanna backup iso's and crap just like move to one of those third world countries where they have no piracy laws!

[dejkirkby]

dejkirkby, you honestly will live by ALL laws no matter what they are? What if they passed a law that conflicted with your lifestyle, morals, religion? Where do you draw the line?

And I think when you are referring to everyone defending the downloader.... hmm maybe because they do the downloading. Sorry for ya that there's not many people like you, you can relate with.

I honestly will do my upmost best to live within all constraints of law. It is not up to me to decide whether I follow them or not. It's upto the government and the judicial system. Sure, there are probably lots of them that I wish to change, such as the back-up of your digital media for one, but as one man I don't have the power to.
The way I look at it is this: What kind of example am I setting my children if I choose which laws to break and which to follow?

With regards to relating to people. Don't get me wrong I can relate to the majority of people on here, ISO users or not, because this subject is one tiny facet of peoples personality and I will nearly always find something to relate to with everyone. I'm a pretty easy guy to get on with, and never bear grudges. This topic, after having a discussion, will not sway who I get on with. Just because people has different viewpoints doesn't mean they can't get along.

[saocore]

lol if u wanna backup iso's and crap just like move to one of those third world countries where they have no piracy laws!

haha I live in a third world country where piracy is on the streets, although we do have piracy laws :thumbup: