Dear microsoft... a letter to MS about backwards compatibility.

[diceone]

I wrote a letter to MicroSoft wondering why so many of the games I own aren't supported on the 360 yet?

This was submitted via the web based contact form:
I am trying to find out when certain games are going to be added to the backward compatible game listing, and if they are not planning on being supported, why?

I own over $1000.00 of games and accessories that are currently of no use on the new xbox 360 system.

I am curious as to why Microsoft has done such a poor job maintaining its loyal consumer base and supporting it's existing xbox titles and products?

I even understand development on yet ANOTHER xbox like product has began. Slated for release in 4-7 years.

Is it Microsoft's method to create a false sense of product longevity and support and then issue new products that intentionally do not support previous software, forcing users to re-buy over and over?

after dismantling an xbox 360 there is literally almost no physical difference in it from the previous xbox.
more power in graphics and processor, maybe, but it is still a cpu based system, on dvd media with live service support.
There are no differences that should not permit full compatibility with xbox titles, unless intentionally engineered to create the incompatibility via system software.

The reply I received:
Mr. Gallagher,

Thank you for writing Xbox Customer Support!

We appreciate your feedback. Although we can't respond to your suggestion individually, we, at Xbox Customer Support, apologize for the inconvenience.

We consider all of the suggestions and comments sent in by our members, and we maintain an internal database of suggestions that we consult and prioritize.

Customer satisfaction is our main goal and we will improve our service in the future. Again, In behalf of Microsoft Xbox Customer Support, we deeply apologize for the inconvenience.

For further assistance, please don't hesitate to write back or call Xbox Phone Support at 1-800-4MYXBOX (1-800-469-9269) at your earliest convenience, and we will be happy to help you. We are open everyday from 9am to 1am EST/ 6am to 10pm PST.

To expedite service, please provide Service Request Number 1032053010 when you call.

Good News! You may link your console to your Windows Live ID, and check repair status online at the web site: http://service.xbox.com.

Sincerely,
Jon
Xbox Customer Care Team

[SSaxdude]

As much as I want 100% Xbox compatibility on my Xbox 360, I kept my Xbox just in case.

[Elven6]

Well if they wanted it 100% at launch they would have had to put the old chips in aswell but rights over who owned them stoped MS from doing so. And now their going to stop making compat updates which totaly sucks, I doubt I will buy another MS console if things keep up.

[JKKDARK]

I just want PSO compatible on Xbox 360!! :mad:

[Elven6]

I just want PSO compatible on Xbox 360!! :mad:

You know their shutting down those servers right?

[JKKDARK]

You know their shutting down those servers right?

The PSOX server is hosted by Microsoft, not Sega. PSOX will be online.

[BrooksyX]

I am glad that M$ decided to use software emulation instead of hardware emulation for backwards compatibility. The 360 is expensive as it is, now throw in an extra CPU and GPU. That would probably raise the price another $50. Plus most of the good games work anyways and if you want to play a game that isn't on the list play it on your Xbox 1.




after dismantling an xbox 360 there is literally almost no physical difference in it from the previous xbox.
more power in graphics and processor, maybe, but it is still a cpu based system, on dvd media with live service support.
There are no differences that should not permit full compatibility with xbox titles, unless intentionally engineered to create the incompatibility via system software.[/I]



This part gave me a good laugh. Just because something looks similar does not mean they work the same way. A 360 motherboard looks just like my PC motherboard. That doesn't mean I can pop a 360 game into my PC's dvd drive and expect it to work.

The CPU in the Xbox 360 is way different then the original Xbox CPU. The original Xbox uses a x86 (same as a PC) CPU, so to be able to get Xbox 1 games to run on a 360 the 360 has to pretend that it is an original xbox. This requires large amounts of code and will only work at playable speeds for certain games. M$ has already spent millions of dollars on getting your old games to work on you new hardware. So its not like they are making money when certain games don't work. So please don't come here and whine about it to us.

[Arun70]

I don´t care if things a backwards compatible... sometimes you just have to set new standards. It´s often too much complicated to make hard- or software backwards-compatible.

[beetroot bertie]

I agree, it's not essential but it is a big bonus and I'm sure it was (along with the inclusion of a DVD player) one of the main reasons the PS2 was so successful. It was a clever way to build on the PS1's success.

Prior to that Backwards compatibility wasn't such a big issue. From what I remember, the N64 couldn't play SNES carts which inturn couldn't play NES carts and the Megadrive couldn't play Maser System carts either.

I suppose there were some systems that were backwards compatible but the only ones I can think of were older machines like the BBC 128k or the Amiga 1200. Not too sure about the Atari consoles/computers.

It only seems since the PS2 that it's become so valued. I have to admit it is preferred - it's allowed me get some cheap Xbox games to enjoy - but not essential. It's a good selling point and helps keep a user base if they already have loads of games (even if they don't play them).

However, if was planning on getting a PS3 then I would be hacked off with euro model minus the PS2 chip. Especially at rip off Britain prices.

[JKKDARK]

Prior to that Backwards compatibility wasn't such a big issue. From what I remember, the N64 couldn't play SNES carts which inturn couldn't play NES carts and the Megadrive couldn't play Maser System carts either.

megadrive can play master system games with the Power Base Converter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Base_Converter#Master_System_compatibility)

[diceone]

This part gave me a good laugh. Just because something looks similar does not mean they work the same way. A 360 motherboard looks just like my PC motherboard. That doesn't mean I can pop a 360 game into my PC's dvd drive and expect it to work.

The CPU in the Xbox 360 is way different then the original Xbox CPU. The original Xbox uses a x86 (same as a PC) CPU, so to be able to get Xbox 1 games to run on a 360 the 360 has to pretend that it is an original xbox. This requires large amounts of code and will only work at playable speeds for certain games. M$ has already spent millions of dollars on getting your old games to work on you new hardware. So its not like they are making money when certain games don't work.
yeah? You find it funny that a company intentionally manufactured a console to specifically be non-compatible with its original console via hardware AND software?
only to later realize people were practically boycotting the console because it wouldn't play the "fratboy" of all FPS - Halo and Halo2.

I don't find it funny at all.
the bottom line is whether its a celeron based or ppc custom cpu, it's controlled by a baseline os.
kind of the same reason that all through the years the gameboy line has offered backwards compatibility.

this isn't a discussion about hardware errata. this is a discussion about getting companies to respect it's consumers. it's a discussion about getting consumers to demand the honest approach from a company.
it's about getting people to stop making "game consoles" under the guise than they are somehow "not or "different" than a computer.


So please don't come here and whine about it to us.
Why don't you do us all a favor and not reply to the posts that you feel are not useful to you.
No one is whining.
I'm demanding a higher level of service from a company who made their billions by extorting people like me into believing that buying their system and titles, that it would be supported in future builds, and not abandoned in the name of money and greed.
so... shut the hell up.

I like the 360 and I feel like it has the right stuff.
but to quote a rather smart man here, from his story on the 7 things that suck about a certain console:


6. Shitty philosophy (of MS)
Blackley thought he had the formula for a great system because all the components were there for a great system (and they are): a powerful graphics chip, a beefy hard drive, a fast processor and DVD capabilities. What he failed to realize was that just because you have all the raw material to make a great system doesn't mean it's going to be great. Saying the Xbox is a good system because it's powerful is like saying you made a great painting because you used the best set of paints.
check his website here:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=xbox_suckit

the irony is Maddox wrote this in 2003. And yet it sounds EXACTLY like you assholes lining up to suck the microsoft dick to get the 360 cumshot in your mouth on camera.

kudos to you dipshits who run out and buy the latest crap gadget, (no matter how much it sucks) over supporting everyone else's hard work, investment and commitment into trying to reform MicroSoft for their previous shit console: the xbox.

never mind that xbox 360 is basically a total ripoff of everything that this indy scene has developed and championed, and thusly abandoned; by supporting the 360.


I am glad that M$ decided to use software emulation instead of hardware emulation for backwards compatibility. The 360 is expensive as it is, now throw in an extra CPU and GPU. That would probably raise the price another $50. Plus most of the good games work anyways and if you want to play a game that isn't on the list play it on your Xbox 1.
They wouldn't have to use emulation or put in other chipsets if they would have used the existing system development knowledge of the computer world. i.e. a natural progression in system development built on the idea of supporting and NOT tossing all old software development.
and it more than likely wouldn't ahve been expensive to include a small PCB.
Even though you are basing your example off the PS3, which is irrelevant in most ways, the price of a PS3 is the EXACT same as a xbox 360 when you add the HD DVD player.
so once again, shut up.

my point is in the fact that the xbox is the first iteration of a gaming console from a major computer industry participant. A participant who knows all too well the needs to create a system to carry over the users of the current hardware to the newer hardware.
that those users have made it possible for new hardware to be developed, and that the transition should go smoothly for the people who so selflessly supported microsoft's efforts in the form of billions of dollars.

instead what we are getting is a system intentionally created with a custom core element and software engineered to create a RIFT between the 2 systems.

in other words: if halo2 can ****ing run on this thing, why the **** can't they get street fighter working.
FOR ****S SAKE.

this isn't about whether it is celeron or ppc.
whether it is sony or microsoft or nintendo.

this is about why companies need to be held accountable for their shortcomings, monopolies, fraud, disservice, and manipulation.

this is about MORALS and ETHICS.
grow up people.

[BrooksyX]

Look you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The Xbox 360 uses a completely different cpu than the xbox. That is why emulation is needed to get xbox 1 games to work. If M$ could get every xbox 1 game to work on the 360 they would. I don't see how letting some games work and some not would save them any money. Its not like they can just flip a switch and the game will work.

Even people at xbox-scene say you don't what you are talking about. Thats why your thread saying the exact same thing got locked yesterday.

If you hate Xbox and M$ so much why did you buy an Xbox 360. You know what would make you feel better, take your 360 outside and smash it with a hammer.

[JKKDARK]

I don't see how letting some games work and some not would save them any money.

99% backward compatibility will help A LOT. Just see the PlayStation 2.

[BrooksyX]

99% backward compatibility will help A LOT. Just see the PlayStation 2.

Exactly, if all xbox 1 games worked on Xbox 360 there would probably a lot more xbox 360 sales.

[diceone]

when microsoft made the 360 they announced it would not support xbox 1 games.
it wasn't a "save money" move.

it was a "please god, hail mary, keep these hackers out of our anus and while were at it everyone will have to buy all this new shit" move.

like I said this is about MORALS & ETHICS.
I own a 360 b/c I feel it has potential... the same reason I bought an xbox.

I try and purchase things as a way of supporting them, but also to give validity to my speaking on what I feel a devices shortcomings are.
kind of like how a person who owns stock in a company has a say as a shareholder.

the people over at xbox-scene aren't interested in morals and ethics in their forums, as most of their forums are run by mini-mod post hijackers that operate on the buddy system. they also didn't read all of my post.
they target out snippets of my post and focus on the technical errata that is irrelevant.

I'm not disputing the difference in CPU of the xbox and xbox 360.
I have blatantly acknowledged it.
I'm fully aware of all technical hardware assemblies of both machines.

the problem is you and your fellow xbox 360 fanboys who take this as some sort of personal attack on you as 360 owners.

face it.
microsoft wanted to make it different for one reason and one reason only. to keep the hackers out and to force people to buy all new 360 compatible games, peripherals, and even go so far as to tought it only being compatible with a pc running media center.
it isn't different for performance.
if it was it'd be an intel core solo/duo.

I'm pushing my issues to reach a 100% compatability list.
I can't believe you guys are so thickheaded.

can you read?
can you read and understand my post?

are you confused?

do you have anything to contribute other than "so and so says you're dumb"?
or are you just so bought into the marketing and promotions you cant admit the dirt that microsoft does to people?

did you read this part of my previous post??
did you?
read all of it?
not just the words "xbox" "360" or "microsoft" or "sucks".

please try it... read all of it:

They wouldn't have to use emulation or put in other chipsets if they would have used the existing system development knowledge of the computer world. i.e. a natural progression in system development built on the idea of supporting and NOT tossing all old software development.
and it more than likely wouldn't ahve been expensive to include a small PCB.
Even though you are basing your example off the PS3, which is irrelevant in most ways, the price of a PS3 is the EXACT same as a xbox 360 when you add the HD DVD player.
so once again, shut up.

my point is in the fact that the xbox is the first iteration of a gaming console from a major computer industry participant. A participant who knows all too well the needs to create a system to carry over the users of the current hardware to the newer hardware.
that those users have made it possible for new hardware to be developed, and that the transition should go smoothly for the people who so selflessly supported microsoft's efforts in the form of billions of dollars.

instead what we are getting is a system intentionally created with a custom core element and software engineered to create a RIFT between the 2 systems.

once again... fully acknowledging the hardware differences. but at the same time, questioning the reasons for the differences.

bottom line:
microsoft is rampantly trying to get xbox1 emulation ironed out so they can quell the cries of thousands of game owners who feel cheated for buying a 360.
Emulation they wouldnt have to do if they had not of set out on a greedy path to force everyone to toss their old system and games and rebuy everything under the sun.

oh, and by the way: knuckles is a ***got second rate sonic.

[BrooksyX]

Yes I can read, I even read your post twice to make sure I understood it because a lot of it is untrue or doesn't make any since. If it would have been relatively cheap to include the necessary components to allow 99.9% backwards computability M$ would have done it. It is not as simple as adding a little piece of PCB, there would actually need to be the Xbox 1 CPU and GPU in the 360 (This is how the ps2 can play ps1 games). This would cause many problems though by increasing production costs and heat production by the console. The 360 has a poor heating design as it is and would probably result in more 360 failures.

Anyways, it is too late to add this hardware to insure 99.9% hardware backwards computability. M$ from the start stated that they would support xbox 1 b.c. through software only on the 360. Halo, Halo 2 and many other titles worked on the 360 at launch. They have continued to add titles that are in high demand since then. Unfortunately your games that you want to play aren't very popular games. I also have games that I would like to play on the 360 but don't work, so I know your anger. Ultimately it is unrealistic to think that all your old games will all work on your new hardware, I am great full the M$ has given us b.c. on many titles free of charge.

M$ is not trying to be greedy in any way by not supporting some games. It would help them financially if all games worked on the 360.



... oh, and by the way: knuckles is a ***got second rate sonic.

That was real mature. :rolleyes:

[Cap'n 1time]

Quit the flame fest.

Emulation will never be perfect for the 360's xbox emulator. The time, money, and effort are not worth it to them. You have already bought the games and they have already made the money... As stated above, Halo 2 is really the only reason it was a huge deal to them It was still sort of short in its life and VERY popular when the 360 crowned its head.

The emulator cant be perfect because of the complexity of the xbox games, each one is vastly different in their workings much like PC games (exactly like PC games). That means the way the emulation would have to be done for each one would also vary. It would take a lot of time and effort to get everything working and it would not pay off. No money would be made, It would only be spent in production cost - getting developers to work their asses off making the emulator work with every individual game. That would seem like a waste of time, money, and effort to them. If you dont like it, make the emulator yourself. It isnt their responsibility to make sure that all of your last gen games work on a brand new console with totally different hardware. That's a silly thing to demand.

[Zion]

i didnt know xbox games were played on the 360 using a emulator.....

just shows you if we ever get homebrew on the 360 that a dreamcast, saturn, ps2 etc emu wouldnt be too hard to achive full speed perhaps.

after all it does have 3 yes 3 - 3.4(or 3.2?), ghz cores :p

[briyan]

edit.

That was quite uncalled for.

[Cap'n 1time]

I'm starting to hand out the infractions for the flamers. If you cant argue or share a point in a polite way... well get the **** out of dcemu. We dont want your immature ass.

[diceone]

Yes I can read, I even read your post twice to make sure I understood it because a lot of it is untrue or doesn't make any since.
please show me what is "untrue", and please give references.

I'm sure I can help you get there in your understanding. I offer up hypothesis and logic based on the proving methods of the PC industry. I only can get so much info from MS.

I can't really help you, if you don't show where I am wrong or point out what "doesn't make sense".




If it would have been relatively cheap to include the necessary components to allow 99.9% backwards computability M$ would have done it.
please give feedback from MS, or links or references.
or some sort of proof...
Have you reviewed the number of lawsuits won by consumers/businesses against microsoft for their intentional negligent practices?


It is not as simple as adding a little piece of PCB, there would actually need to be the Xbox 1 CPU and GPU in the 360 (This is how the ps2 can play ps1 games).

the ps2 has one and only one small ass chip on it's board form the ps1. the IO chip.
there is no need to include other chips. you simply run info needed through that one chip on the board, and the rest of it is routed to the newer and more powerful ps2/ps3 system.

this is what MS should have done.
this is why Sony is more popular.
Sony even released it's own linux kit with hard drive, keyboard and mouse.

currently the ps3 incorporates ps2 with ps1 io chipset, and also the wii incorporates a gamecube chipset.
wii : 100% backwards compatible.
ps3 : 99% backwards compatible.
i.e. these companies value the money spent by the customers on previous titles.

PS3 is slated to abandon ps2 chips on-board in favor of emulation.
however, the emulation supports ps2 & ps1 games.


This would cause many problems though by increasing production costs and heat production by the console. The 360 has a poor heating design as it is and would probably result in more 360 failures.
ok, so you are admitting the console already has massive shortcomings, safety hazards, and fails to deliver the performance as stated at purchase... and probably needs a big ass class action lawsuit.

also: proof?
I just got done showing how the ps2 and ps3 have chips and it certainly didn't cause their consoles to nuke themselves or sky rocket the price. you also stated this as well.
Once again the reason is because Sony had the good sense to respect it's core fan base by ensuring previous titles play over.


Anyways, it is too late to add this hardware to insure 99.9% hardware backwards computability. M$ from the start stated that they would support xbox 1 b.c. through software only on the 360. Halo, Halo 2 and many other titles worked on the 360 at launch. They have continued to add titles that are in high demand since then.
it's never too late to do anything.
where do people get this attitude?
change things man.
stand up for change and make things right.

it isn't ever too late to fix a problem.

I think the 360 could be even better. can we work towards that? they are already supposedly releasing a unit with a much larger HD.
change is very possible.

one other thing: street fighter anniversary features 2 games: 3rd strike and hyper fighting.
currently you can purchase hyper fighting for the 360 on your live arcade. are you so sure the reasons for these incompatibilities isn't money??
because to play that game on my 360... all I need to do is buy it AGAIN.


Unfortunately your games that you want to play aren't very popular games.
tell that to the 20,000+ online players per week of capcom vs snk 2
and the 50,000+ weekly players of street fighter anniversary.

since when was doing things right about popularity??
haven't we all learned in middle school that popular kids aren't always smart, nice, honest or right?

"hey everyone... the popluar thing to do is eat dog shit!"
"cool! let's all do it too!"

...also, they ported over XIII. that game is about as dead as it gets. have you seen the backwards compatibility list? the majority of those games on that list are total crap.


I also have games that I would like to play on the 360 but don't work, so I know your anger. Ultimately it is unrealistic to think that all your old games will all work on your new hardware, I am greatfull the M$ has given us b.c. on many titles free of charge.
ok. I don't feel it's unrealistic. please see my earlier posts about natural development of computing hardware intent on supporting previous software in other industries that Microsoft is in. i.e. personal computing.

you may also wish to review a lawsuit against Microsoft for creating software for Mac os X that was integrated into high levels of business networks, but abandoned by MS, causing them to have to answer for their irresponsible nature.
program name : Microsoft office for os x.

...however, gaming is not held to these same standards due to the end users apathy and acceptance of these gaming companies tactics.


M$ is not trying to be greedy in any way by not supporting some games. It would help them financially if all games worked on the 360.
I'm not saying that they are making my games on my list non-playable on the 360 for profit.
that is retarded. that isn't what this is about.
once again, you obviously don't understand my post, or that is about ethics and company responsibility to its consumer.
(except that hyper fighting thing is kind of looking suspect)

Also, based on your opinion, you are saying that MS had no intentions of us buying all new controllers, headsets, memory cards, driving wheels, wireless adapters, games and accessories at all.
I'm sure that was purely a technology issue.
you are probably 100% right in thinking microsoft isn't motivated by greed and that they couldn't get a usb device or a game from the xbox to be usable in the dvd tray or usb port of the next console, the 360.
you are right, it's beyond microsoft's planning and technology.
they are incapable of such an amazing feat.

the 360 is just so advanced, even it's creator was incapable of anticipating its mighty power!
And MS was forced to remake everything from the ground up, as the 360 was the alien spawn from another planet that even microsoft is unable to control, plan for, or manage in anyway!
the 360 is so powerful!
ZOMG!

have you ever considered that through marketing and advertising you have been pre-programmed to believe that things aren't supposed to be compatible? ...so that you will just accept it, pay them AGAIN, and move on with the rest of sheep in the herd????




Originally Posted by diceone View Post
... oh, and by the way: knuckles is a ***got second rate sonic.
That was real mature.
sorry.
I only did that in reply to your personal stab at the xbox-scene forum.

it isn't too nice when I treat you, like you treated me, is it?

[Zion]

I just got done showing how the ps2 and ps3 have chips and it certainly didn't cause their consoles to nuke themselves or sky rocket the price.

you dont call paying 650euro for a ps3 skyrocketing? while the 360 is 300euro... :rolleyes:

[diceone]

I'm not here to argue PS vs xbox.
and you are also comparing the price of a 360 without Hard drive.

but once again. read ALL of the posts in this thread.
and you will learn some amazing things:
1. an xbox 360 does not come with a hd-dvd player
2. an xbox 360 does not come with wifi
3. an xbox 360 does not come with bluetooth
4. it also doesn't support memory sticks, compact flash, or SD: standard/mini x 1

the PS3 does.
not to mention it is a blu-ray player straight out of the box.

adding just HD-dvd playback to the 360, makes the 360 equally priced with the PS3.

in the US the PS3 is $599 including 60gb hard drive + all that other stuff it does.
in the US the xbox 360 is $399 without HD-DVD player, wifi, or any external storage support, including a 20gb hard drive.
the Hd-DVD player for a 360 is $199.00
making the 360 $598.00
add a $100 wifi adapter and your so called "less expensive but equal system" is now more expensive than a standard PS3 by $100 US.

[JKKDARK]

Whatever diceone, the sales don't say the same.

[diceone]

are you guys retarded?
I'm not interested in whether you do or dont like the PS3.

also as a dreamcast user you should know : popular doesn't = better.
once again - read my previous posts! DER!

it is already obvious that people aren't interested in quality products as much as they are interested in what is advertised best and is released first.


I'm not interested in saying a PS3 is or isn't better than a 360 or that they all suck comapred to Wii.

I'm buying a Wii this sunday.
I own a 360, and plan on getting a PS3 next week.

I would like to see those consoles in my living room.
along with my dreamcast and sega master system, it starts taking up a lot of space.
now add my xbox into the equation to play a handful of games....

hence the "it'd be nice if microsoft would get it together with the backwards compatibility"

can people please stop coming here with their pointless 360 fanboy mentaility?

go pray to your MS altar in your own thread about how awesome the 360 is.

[JKKDARK]

are you guys retarded?
I'm not interested in whether you do or dont like the PS3.

also as a dreamcast user you should know : popular doesn't = better.
once again - read my previous posts! DER!

it is already obvious that people aren't interested in quality products as much as they are interested in what is advertised best and is released first.


I'm not interested in saying a PS3 is or isn't better than a 360 or that they all suck comapred to Wii.

I'm buying a Wii this sunday.
I own a 360, and plan on getting a PS3 next week.

I would like to see those consoles in my living room.
along with my dreamcast and sega master system, it starts taking up a lot of space.
now add my xbox into the equation to play a handful of games....

hence the "it'd be nice if microsoft would get it together with the backwards compatibility"

can people please stop coming here with their pointless 360 fanboy mentaility?

go pray to your MS altar in your own thread about how awesome the 360 is.

High quality games don't make money. Just see the Dreamcast, actually it's only alive on Japan with few titles.

Sadly the actual video games are about quantity over quality. That's how the PS2 was successful.

[diceone]

High quality games don't make money. Just see the Dreamcast, actually it's only alive on Japan with few titles.

Sadly the actual video games are about quantity over quality. That's how the PS2 was successful.

Exactly.
this is exactly what I am saying!

unfortunately, there are a lot of good games for the PS2, in addition to the smart dvd playback move.

I'm a proud dreamcast user and owner.
one cool thing was when they added capcom vs snk 2 to the dreamcast and playstation 2 to be able to play against each other online.

but please... can we keep this on topic?

this thread is only supposed to be about getting games from the xbox over to the 360 with a very high level of compatibility. ultimately 100%.

other things this thread is about:
MS sacrificing backwards compatibility for security.
MS intentionally disregarding backwards compatibility until halo/halo2 owners pitched a fit.
MS being open to people submitting requests for backwards compatibility at: [email protected]
write IN! get your game supported!

[BrooksyX]

I am done trying to show you the flawes in your idea. We could argue about it forever, but as it currently stand there are many Xbox 1 games that don't work on the 360. M$ decided to take an economical approach to backwards compatibility by using software emulation instead of a more popular one that would guarantee 99.9% b.c.

M$ does not owe you anything, you bought their console by choice and were not forced to purchase it in any way. So be happy that some titles currently work and that there is hope that other games may work too.

Again, I would be really happy if all Xbox 1 games worked on the 360. But right I only see one way to fix this. You will have to go back in time and change the 360 design plan to include xbox 1 parts or make the 360 have an x86 cpu. M$ is not going to have greatly change the 360 hardware 2 years after launch. I think we can both agree that I would be very angry if they did infact do what I just said because we would be left out in the cold with our 360s.

So basically software emulation is all what the 360 has for backwards compatability. Getting games to run is no easy task and costs lots of money for M$. They have a large group dedicated to getting old games to work on the 360. So basically you are just going to have to hope that someday your games will work. At least right now you can play them on your original Xbox.

[Elven6]

I heard the reason MS could not use the old chips was because of rights disputes. And MS has stated they do not pick titles by favorites, in their FAQ they say one release may help with another due to similar programing or something like that.

[diceone]

rights disputes?
that's interesting. do you have a link or anything?

This is the first I have heard of this.

[Elven6]

wikipedias 360 article cites it. Since MS chose ATI over Nvidia, nvidia stoped producing video chips for xbox 1 has retaliation so MS forced to do software emulation and cut short the life of xbox 1. Not due to security like u claim since the consoles have a diffrent OS

[beetroot bertie]

One thing I don't understand, if it's so much work to code the emulation needed for each title, how come the actual b/c update downloads are so small?

According the the xbox site (http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/games/backwardscompatibility.htm#disc), it's only a 2.5mb download yet includes quite a lot of titles (couldn't be arsed to count, but at least 150).

I therefore assume each individual game's emulation code would be very small, so how much work is actually needed to produce this code?

I'm not a coder so forgive my ignorance.

[diceone]

wikipedias 360 article cites it. Since MS chose ATI over Nvidia, nvidia stoped producing video chips for xbox 1 has retaliation so MS forced to do software emulation and cut short the life of xbox 1. Not due to security like u claim since the consoles have a diffrent OS
good info... I actually did see that, but I also read that they resolved the issue...
however, I would like to think in MicroSoft's infinitely deep pockets they could have had ATI make chips to spec, or used a gpu chipset to spec.
I don't think that is beyond the grasp of these large corporations abilities.

the xbox 1 was essentially, like Blackley stated,

"the xbox was little more than exposed cards with processors and graphics chips hooked to a monitor."

this is straight from the creators mouth.
Doesn't sound like it'd be impossible in the second generation of the console to improve on that and be compatible.
whether you have ATI or Nvidia pumping your gpu, isn't gonna cause all of this incompatibility issue.
it is purely a rewritten proprietary OS making these issues. True, this OS may take FULL advantage of this chip set... but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to set out at square one at the building of an xbox 360, to state; "we need to make sure all the xbox1 games are playable, DUH."

[diceone]

One thing I don't understand, if it's so much work to code the emulation needed for each title, how come the actual b/c update downloads are so small?

According the the xbox site (http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/games/backwardscompatibility.htm#disc), it's only a 2.5mb download yet includes quite a lot of titles (couldn't be arsed to count, but at least 150).

I therefore assume each individual game's emulation code would be very small, so how much work is actually needed to produce this code?

I'm not a coder so forgive my ignorance.

you can't judge the amount of work, put into a compiled piece of executable code by it's final file size.

I make websites, flash movies, banner ads, full flash sites and apps.... that are all under 1mb.
but tons of work goes into them.

A single NES emulator for my PC/Mac is around 2.5 mb
for the application. But I know months of work if not years go into those singular emulators.

it's hard to say how much work goes into them, but emulation is no small feat, no matter how closely related the systems are.

a lot of testing has to be done to insure the quality is there in all aspects of every game.

[oosername05]

It would have been a smart decision for M1c|20s0ft to let its console play former generation games. M1c|20s0ft could have been selling xbox games and therefore making money on the already-made software.

[beetroot bertie]

I make websites, flash movies, banner ads, full flash sites and apps.... that are all under 1mb. but tons of work goes into them.

Cool! Do you have a web site or anything as I'd be interested to see your work? I love looking a flash sites and seeing what people are capable of getting out of it.

Ta.

[BrooksyX]

One thing I don't understand, if it's so much work to code the emulation needed for each title, how come the actual b/c update downloads are so small?

According the the xbox site (http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/games/backwardscompatibility.htm#disc), it's only a 2.5mb download yet includes quite a lot of titles (couldn't be arsed to count, but at least 150).

I therefore assume each individual game's emulation code would be very small, so how much work is actually needed to produce this code?

I'm not a coder so forgive my ignorance.


The emulators are just text based, what makes files so big are all the pictures, movies, sounds and other media. There is no gui for b.c. its just integrated into the dashboard. The 2.5 mb download probably consisted of thousands of lines of code.

[Elven6]

good info... I actually did see that, but I also read that they resolved the issue...
however, I would like to think in MicroSoft's infinitely deep pockets they could have had ATI make chips to spec, or used a gpu chipset to spec.
I don't think that is beyond the grasp of these large corporations abilities.

the xbox 1 was essentially, like Blackley stated,


this is straight from the creators mouth.
Doesn't sound like it'd be impossible in the second generation of the console to improve on that and be compatible.
whether you have ATI or Nvidia pumping your gpu, isn't gonna cause all of this incompatibility issue.
it is purely a rewritten proprietary OS making these issues. True, this OS may take FULL advantage of this chip set... but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to set out at square one at the building of an xbox 360, to state; "we need to make sure all the xbox1 games are playable, DUH."


You still don't get it do you, the games are programmed to detect those chips which are supposed to be in the system since thats how they are programed. It would look for the Nvidia chip and not find any, so in the end you would still need software emulation.

[BrooksyX]

You still don't get it do you, the games are programmed to detect those chips which are supposed to be in the system since thats how they are programed. It would look for the Nvidia chip and not find any, so in the end you would still need software emulation.

yeah, he can't seem to grasp the fact that hardware incompatibility is the main reason that all xbox 1 games do not work on xbox 360 without software emulation. It has nothing to do with the OS, it is because the hardware is 100% different.

[Elven6]

btw, if they did resolve the chip issue then MS would have put it into Xbox 360, but they did not own the chips like they do with 360.

[diceone]

you guys are the ones that don't get it.
poor planning, poor integration, poor development.

have fun buying your HDMI 120gb "elite" xbox 360's.

You guys have no evidence of an xbox1 game looking for a "brand name" of a chip.
you guys are 360 fanboys ready to defend the dumbass moves made by microsoft.
i.e. not wanting to pay people like nvidia, and all the other corners they cut.

furthermore, how dumb to build in specific hardware addressing by BRAND as you claim. if that is the case that was a completely stupid move.
as long as new chips = old chips compatibility (wouldn't be hard, it isn't a custom chip in the old box) things should run.
moreover, if these console makers (that you guys seem to worship, whom apparently can do no wrong in your eyes) would stop bullshitting everyone and differentiating Video Game Consoles from Computers, we'd have this backwards compatibility issue solved.

Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Sega all have intentionally made consoles to be as complicated, developer unfriendly, proprietary, and consumer confusing as humanly possible.
All this to turn massive profit and to prevent anyone form cracking their "amazing" systems open to more use beyond the 2007 HD version of Combat.

You guys need to separate ETHICS and MORALS from some stupid hardware or technical errata relating to MS.

it is what is. the 360 doesn't support the games due to a variety of difficulties... DUH.
hardware, software, etc.
ALL seen as "not a big deal" by MS.
"everyone will be so into next gen, it won't matter."

All that MS does is not RIGHTEOUS and in your BEST interest. WAKE UP.

Do you guys work at microsoft or something? you a part of their $6 Billion dollar forum invasion and viral marketing campaign for the 360??

maybe they could have spent that $6 billion dollars on some chips for the 360.
dipshits.

[Elven6]

Excuse me? May I remind you Dreamcast is one of the easiest consoles to code for, this came from the horses mouth. You have no idea how this stuff works, go learn something before you try to argue it. And evidence is in emulation itself, coders need to soft emulate the chips, if thats not proof enough then you must not be too smart.

[diceone]

once again.
hardware errata.

you guys get around to the real issues, feel free to join the conversation.

I'm tired of blatantly acknowledging the differences in the hardware/software so you hyper nerds will put a sock in it and come around to the other aspects of the business operations.

MORALS AND ETHICS PEOPLE. can you READ???

I don't care what kind of emulation, chips, hardware, software , etc has to be used to get a job done.

the PROBLEM is a JOB WAS NOT DONE.
dumbasses.

[beetroot bertie]

Can't we be civil about this? Most people are happy to discuss this issue and it's highly likely that not everyone will agree with you all of the time.

Why can't this be discussed (after all that's what forums are for) without the need for cheap insults and a rather belligerent attitude towards others? Maybe I'm misreading the tone of your responses, but calling everyone dipshits or dumbasses doesn't really help does it and it makes you appear closed to the opinions of others.

So we're talking about morals and ethics? I would be upset if I was miss-sold my 360 but I knew before making the purchase that backwards compatibility was not 100%. It's not like we were told one thing then MS did something else. I'm not trying to defend MS and I don't consider myself to be a fanboy as I'm deeply dissatisfied with a lot of microsoft products (yes I like my macs, but that's a different discussion). I just feel you're going a bit overboard on this.

I think we all agree that we'd like 100% backwards compatibility but like I mentioned before I see it as a bonus rather than a taken for granted aspect of the product.

If you really feel that strongly about MS's ethics then just vote with your wallet and don't buy anything else by them and encourage others to do the same. Or start a petition for 100% backwards compatibility or something.

Maybe we can discuss the best way to "encourage" MS or let then know so they can either act on it or do something about it in the future.

[Elven6]

It was out of their control, how many times do we need to tell you that!

[BrooksyX]

Wow I am sorry but you are ridiculous. We are not trying to attack your ideas, we are just trying to explain that M$ is not trying to rip you off.

Microsoft didn't want to make a bulked up xbox 1 for their next gen console. They wanted to make a brand new system so they started from scratch. Unfortunately, xbox 1 games will not run natively on the xbox 360 cpu because they took this route. Thats why software emulation is required.

You can put leaded fuel in a car that runs unleaded. It won't work (and probably end up damaging your car in the process). This is the same Idea with the Xbox 360. It has nothing to do with the Xbox 360 OS. I don't understand why you can't seem comprehend this.

Is it supposed to be offensive that you are calling us Microsoft fanboys? Yes I do like my 360 but I have also liked my Sega, Sony, and Nintendo consoles I have owned too.

[Shadowblind]

Ok so its officially been 4 months since the last update. Whats all this BS about M$ making the most popular games backwards compatible? I STILL can't play Mechassault 1 or 2 or Timesplitters: Future Perfect on my 360, bricked or not. M$ Really just wants to test their supporters with bricks and battles...

[diceone]

I'm pretty sure I know MS and the 360 had no intentions of any backwards compatibility.
I had no pre-conceived notions of it being 100% backwards compatible.
it seems like it would have been painfully obvious to do that at start and MS intentionally elected not to.
Their decision.

I don't feel deceived or duped, except for the system constantly crashing, over heating and needing to be returned.

I'm not debating any of that... and that is why people keep getting called dipshit and dumbass.
as that was not what this thread was ever about.... but people keep trying to parry and dodge with topical shifting that is irrelevant to the main point of the thread:
They SHOULD have done things different.

NOW that lot's of people have purchased the system and the backwards compatibility seems to be more and more of an issue for MOST... what are they going to do?
what can we get them to do?

What can they take away from this? can we give them feedback and make them respect us a little more in the future?

Since consoles are laid out in crazy custom circuitry running super customized hyper specified Bios and OS and special chipsets, we as consumers aren't left with a lot of options.
And that is my very point.

wouldn't we all agree if they'd stop trying to make consoles as these weird Frankenstein's of marketing and proprietary format madness, we could get a lot more usage out of these devices?

It would seem pretty much everyone who has posted here is in agreement that there is at least 1 title from the xbox that you wish would play on the 360.

boy, it sure would have been nice if Microsoft respected us as consumers and had ensured a more open and backwards compatible system.

you know. like a PC.

It's so nice to play a NEW FPS for my Mac in os 10.4.9 even though I bought the hardware for it in 2000.
But hey, that's crazy talk.
as that new OS certainly isn't capable of navigating that proprietary old motorola custom processor or weird APC graphic output format hardware.
weird how a FREE game built for intel machines on the very latest OS will run on my old crusty G4 from literally 7 years ago. via smart development from mac.
what a weird concept.
even if my system is a PPC G4 on a 100mhz sys bus board.
crazy. yet, this new game works on a intel core2 duo mac pro as well. ZANY...

guess it is a real shame if video game console makers took the same approach.

god forbid.