First Screenshots of Fightoon for Dreamcast !

[goatdan]

At that point you may end up asking the question, what IS the game? Is the game the end result on fragger's computer or is it the pressed independently released box and disc? I would not disagree with the term independent game as a third category as opposed to just homebrew or commercial, but I think if one was limited simply to the two terms this would fall into homebrew and not commercial. The biggest difference between something like Tengen or Accolade and this is that they were made under the label of an actual company with (iirc) a registered name, an office, and a traditional business. Also, those were mass produced and distributed through standardized channels. This would probably be more akin to speccy or c64 games that were written by an individual then sold to and distributed by companies who specialize in that via mail-order or such.

Why would we be limited to only two terms?

Besides, I can tell you that we have an office, a registered name and a traditional business just like those other companies did. If you are trying to say that the developers need that, almost every developer which we work with also has been registered as a business. It is up to them if they want to, but that is how most of them operate.

On top of all of this, we are working with companies who have previously published 'official' games on platforms like the Playstation, Game Boy Color and other consoles. They are working out of the same offices to make these new Dreamcast games. No one -- not them, us or any third parties -- are doing it "from home". And the problem is when people on here go running around and saying, "Ooo! Look! A homebrew!" these companies get worried that they are going to be associated with the title of "homebrew" games, which indicates a lower level of quality, which they do not want to be associated with. So besides the term being completely unfair from the use standpoint, it has helped to drive away releases. I'm particularly touchy about this because we were about to ink a deal for FIVE unreleased during-the-Dreamcast's-lifespan games when the company suddenly pulled out because they saw people referring to the games we had done as "homebrew", and they said that their company didn't do "homebrew" and if by releasing them, people thought they did homebrew games, they would rather not release them.

So... so far, the improper use of the word homebrew by people on these boards and others stopped us from having the chance to release five games.

I can *only* speak for the GOAT Store, but the way we look at all of our releases is that we think they challenge people for their money fairly. We do not want people to feel forced to buy the games because they want to ensure more games come out or something like that, but literally just because they want to play the game. We focus on concept and gameplay, and while they won't hold up graphically against Gears of War or Resistance: Fall of Man, they don't have to.

Oh, and to finish out my argument against what you said:

What is the game -- well, it depends on what happens with the game. If the game is ONLY ever put on Fraggers computer and no where else, it isn't anything other than something someone wrote. If he were to release it for free online, saying that he made this just for people to check out, then it would be homebrew (as the way that the game would actually be put on a Dreamcast would be through burning a disc and sticking it in -- something everyone can do _at home). If it is independently pressed, released and sold, then it is an independent release. If Fragger talks with Sega and Sega presses it, it is an 'official' release.

If you only had two categories, homebrew and commercial, this would fall into the "commercial" game role. Quite frankly, if I didn't feel that we as the GOAT Store could at least make our money back on it, I wouldn't publish it. So... that purely by definition would make it commercial.

I already destroyed the Tengen and Accolade argument, although for the record companies like Activision on the 2600 are an even better comparison, as they were literally working out of their garages, but I don't generally hear people saying, "Ooooh, I've nearly completed my homebrew Activision set! I just got Pitfall II! What an amazing homebrew!"

These games were mass produced and distributed through standardized channels. Just because the market has shifted with the advent of the internet doesn't mean they are standardized channels... and, believe it or not, our games are carried by a good number of brick and mortar stores too, and we're working on raising that number even higher with our upcoming releases. And, for the record, we have produced more of some of the games which we have published than Sega produced for Dreamcast games for various companies. I have some of those sale records, and at least one of our projects has had more copies made than three of the "official" releases.

Finally, comparing it to the speccy or C64 people is also wrong -- those people made the game, and then they copied their own floppies, made their own packaging and did the mail order thing. That, in a nutshell, is the definition of what a "homebrew" game is. I literally cannot produce these games in the same way they are produced at my house. That takes out a huge step of the "homebrew" method.

[Darksaviour69]

great read Dan,

I understand your point how the name "homebrew" can be damaging to a project, but I think when someone refers to these releases, they mean it in a good way, i.e. they don't have the resources of big companies, but they are still very good.

as you pointed out, the games industry what born out of homebrew, so the terminology is confusing.

from now on i going to make sure that GOAT Store releases are referred to as independent releases and not homebrew, from now on in newsposts.

I'm particularly touchy about this because we were about to ink a deal for FIVE unreleased during-the-Dreamcast's-lifespan games when the company suddenly pulled out because they saw people referring to the games we had done as "homebrew", and they said that their company didn't do "homebrew" and if by releasing them, people thought they did homebrew games, they would rather not release them.

That really sucks! That's the first time I heard about that..... so does that mean 5 less games from the 12 games announced a while ago? what games were canned?

[Christuserloeser]

That really sucks! That's the first time I heard about that..... so does that mean 5 less games from the 12 games announced a while ago? what games were canned?

No, Dan was referring to games that were cancelled during the period right before the end of the Dreamcast's commercial lifespan in Europe and North-America.

[goatdan]

No, Dan was referring to games that were cancelled during the period right before the end of the Dreamcast's commercial lifespan in Europe and North-America.

Correct. And I haven't ever publicly talked about what they are or anything like that, seeing as how I'm still in contact with the company or companies involved and obviously I don't want to burn those bridges.

[Darksaviour69]

really, That's the first time I heard that

So... so far, the improper use of the word homebrew by people on these boards and others stopped us from having the chance to release five games.

but these boards were not around at that time...

edit:, just saw dan's post, i'm guessing he meant the scene generally

[Christuserloeser]

Regarding the 'homebrew' vs 'independent' discussion: I think none of you is incorrect. In my opinion it's more a matter of 'freeware' vs 'commercial' anyway - as, to a degree, 'homebrew' and 'independent' does apply to a wide range of software published for the Dreamcast.

In the Dreamcast scene the term 'homebrew' has always been used for everything freeware that is not developed with the Katana SDK. 'Homebrew', which probably and more accuratly should be labeled as 'freeware' in this case, implies that the project in question is a hobbiest production that may contain bugs and/or can be released in a demo/beta status. The user who downloads it should be aware that he should not expect a perfect product of commercial quality as the author(s) may have spend a limited amount of time working on it, did not get paid for providing the product and thus cannot be held responsible for any problems that may occur when his product is used.

A commercial game, independently published by the GOAT Store, doesn't have much, if anything, to do with that: GOAT's releases do offer commercial quality. While it's obvious that it depends on the taste of each and every costumer if they are 100% happy with the type/genre of a certain game or the provided graphics and music, he can at least be assured that the authors and the GOAT Store did everything they could to offer a game as polished and professional as possible.

[peens]

by saying "fight with other other people around the world" (not exact quote) you do mean online capabilities right? man that would be sooooo sweet. it looks really wicked too.

[Dull Blade]

Well this look really good for an independent game. I really hope they dont mess up the A.I. like in those really old dc homebrew fighters that were pre 2004.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Dan, all the people who have written the games GOAT Publishing has put out have been homebrewers. Same for all the upcoming projects that we know anything about. You may indeed be negotiating with some compajies who have produced licensed games, but they're obviously not the majority of your business in the present.

It's no insult to call a game homebrew. The insult is in the assumption that if a game is homebrew, then it's not worth anyone's attention and you're making that very assumption when you refuse to acknowledge that the GOAT Publishing games (that we know about) are indeed homebrew. You should be supporting homebrew as homebrew has supported you, not playing semantic games to distance yourself from the very scene that gives your company its life.

Maybe instead of trying to get everyone to stop calling the GOAT Publishing games homebrew, you should instead be putting your energies into proving to these companies who stupidly get cold feet over the term, that there's nothing wrong with homebrew. Homebrew is something to be proud of.

Homebrew 4 Lyfe!


...word is bondage...

[goatdan]

Dan, all the people who have written the games GOAT Publishing has put out have been homebrewers. Same for all the upcoming projects that we know anything about. You may indeed be negotiating with some companies who have produced licensed games, but they're obviously not the majority of your business in the present.

Actually, if you research our upcoming projects, you'll find that is an incorrect statement, as Karma Studios who is working on Radium as well as some other titles has done other games. Same with the game Donk, which started life as a CD-i title.

Besides that, according to Dictionary.com, a professional is: "following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain". When a developer decides to take their project to us, they do in fact get paid to do so. That alone would make them a "professional" programmer, which they would not be if they were just a homebrew programmer putting out projects for people to check out.

And I'll get into this more before -- it isn't an "insult" or a bad thing at all to be a homebrew programmer. It just isn't exactly what we do, so I do think it isn't fair to call our games that.

It's no insult to call a game homebrew. The insult is in the assumption that if a game is homebrew, then it's not worth anyone's attention and you're making that very assumption when you refuse to acknowledge that the GOAT Publishing games (that we know about) are indeed homebrew. You should be supporting homebrew as homebrew has supported you, not playing semantic games to distance yourself from the very scene that gives your company its life.

You are completely wrong in your statement that I make that "assumption when you refuse to acknowledge that the GOAT Store Publishing games are indeed homebrew." As I have explained, I would say that most of the projects that we have worked with developers on started as homebrew games, which we found, tried, liked and invited them to do more with. Probably 75% of our titles were started that way. I fully admit that.

But, as soon as that developer decides to complete the game and publish it, it does in fact enter a new category. That of an "independent" game. They are produced in a similar fashion to the homebrew games, but the difference is that an independent game ends up pressed, and if there are big bugs in it, people can complain and you can't just release a new version. Doing what we do means that the projects are more difficult to 'complete', means that you have to ensure that people are willing to spend their money on them and that people feel that they got enough out of them. With a regular homebrew project, when you are done with the game and you release it, you can always tweak it at a later point in time. You don't have money riding on the fact that the game is good. If everyone hates it, you don't stand to lose thousands of dollars. With an independent release -- we do.

It is *not* in _any way_ an insult to call a game a homebrew game. In fact, for the 2600 which is the system that sort of coined the term for small releases and is probably the reason many people call our games "homebrew", I have probably 20 "homebrew" titles from various groups and people. Truthfully, most of them are _better_ than games which were released by the "real" companies for the system.

Also, I will fully admit that at one point in time, we called our own releases "homebrew" and you can even see this in the notes for Feet of Fury. The fact is, it was pointed out to me by people in the industry that this isn't the right term to be using. Gaming companies don't take "homebrew" releases seriously for many of the same reasons that I pointed out above -- the games can be modified at any time, there is no monetary risk to balance with gameplay and features, and so on. They do take releases like what we do, since we have to deal with these real world issues seriously.

Again, that isn't to say that homebrew games are bad -- but it is the reality of the industry that they need to balance a lot more that homebrew developers don't necessarily need to worry about. Making the distinction helps to clarify exactly how serious the project was, and as I pointed out, developers do think in the terms of their own games in similar ways.

Maybe instead of trying to get everyone to stop calling the GOAT Publishing games homebrew, you should instead be putting your energies into proving to these companies who stupidly get cold feet over the term, that there's nothing wrong with homebrew. Homebrew is something to be proud of.

Again, I do completely agree with you and here is the thing -- most of these companies do think that the homebrew scene is a very cool scene, and they respect it a lot. I have specifically pointed out to them how we got started, and they have been shown some of the stuff that we haven't done, and people have been very impressed.

The problem is that no matter what you or I would like to do about it, there is a negative connotation to products that are for sale with the word "homebrew" in the gaming industry. And it springs strictly from the points that I raised above -- with homebrew things, there is no specific guarantee of quality.

The word homebrew, as I'm also sure most people here know, springs from the use of the word for people who make alcohol in their homes, usually beer. And, while that beer or whatever may be of an exceptional taste and quality sometimes, sometimes it is not at all. My wife's grandfather still to this day "homebrews" wine in his basement. Some years, it is absolutely amazing and you can drink a whole bottle. Other years, you need to put just a bit into a ton of Sprite or something to even make it drinkable.

And there lies the problem with games like that. There is no assurance of quality. And while that is fine if you are just downloading a new version of a game to check out and play to see how it works, that is fine. But when it comes to our games, we guarantee an assurance of quality. Our games are put through the wringer. We spend a ton of time ensuring that they are going to meet and exceed everyone's expectations.

They may have started out as a homebrew project, true -- but if it is the type of homebrew project that you need a bottle of Sprite to make it drinkable, I can guarantee that it won't be published. But if it is a fine wine that you wouldn't necessarily expect, I can also guarantee that we will be there, helping to refine it and bringing it out.

In closing, there is absolutely NO problems with being a homebrew developer, but there are things associated with the term that we as a company could not overcome. It is not worth our time and money to try to convince people that we are a homebrew publisher, as using the proper term of 'independent' clears up the confusion, and doesn't cost us anything in the way of informing the public about it. And finally, with homebrew games, as I already said -- you can find some absolutely amazing jewels that were developed for the Dreamcast which we had nothing to do with, and are equal in quality and fun level to some of the stuff which we have published. And you can also find some amazing stinkers that make you completely regret using a perfectly good CD-R to test them out. With our games, we put our name on each of them to assure they are quality.

You can be homebrew for life, but as long as there is a lot of money being risked on each project, I am definitely going to stay independent at heart.