Dreamcast 2 once and for all! [Archive] - DCEmu Network: The Homebrew, Hacking & Gaming Network

Saoshyant

June 28th, 2004, 19:48

I'm tired of this and instead of trying to start the same topic here on dcemu.co.uk's board I hope you'll follow the link below and help solve this situation once and for all, because we people need to stick together and show SEGA we really want Dreamcast 2.

http://boards.sega.com/sega/viewtopic.php?t=13986

quzar

June 28th, 2004, 21:47

The person on that site is right, the one you were arguing with that is. Sorry to break it to you, but petitions are mostly for when it is the company's choice to not release something when they could. In this case though Sega pretty much cant afford to release another console. Think about it. That is what people said after the saturn and then the dreamcast came out. As soon as it is possible for them to get out some new hardware they will.

guymelef

June 28th, 2004, 22:03

i am sure that sega could make a new system. but why would they?
the console war is at an all time high. in the past there were always more then 1 or 2 companies make consoles and games, but never before (imo) has there been such a market share war. I don't care about sony being the highest selling. the next gen will be upon us soon, and who knows what's going to happen. for once nintendo is going to try and get the jump on everybody(supposedly, but the big N is known for pushing back release dates). Microsoft is on the programmers side, and by that i mean that they have a platform that could port virtually any game as long as they put a 2gig(approx.) processor in it. Sony is going into the next generation with the largest amount of 3rd party software. then there is still the Phantom(which I don't expect a whole lot from, but it should still be interesting). as far a originality I think that the N. will be at the top of the list followed by the phantom. but raw power is definitely always going to go to microsoft. sony has to split the difference without losing fan base. then we have to wait and see if the handheld community will take away market share from the consoles(people only have so much money to spend on vdogames). I don't think that we have seen the last from sega. but they need to make sure that they are putting all there knowledge to use in their software liscensing. either/or/and producing and distributing games and making there own NEW original titles as well as continuing their near endless list of past favorite i e sonic, PSO, stuff like that.

guymelef

June 28th, 2004, 22:08

JMD

June 29th, 2004, 01:21

Christuserloeser

June 29th, 2004, 05:02

If SEGA make a new console, they won't target the mass public.
I think a well done and low cost console for SEGA and arcade fans should be great.

An extended DC (same kind of architecture with a recent video card and more powerfull CPU, a standard DVD-ROM) at 80€ with few new games each month should find a public. *A low cost game SDK (open as GP32 ?) should be also nice for small companies.

Yeah, if I'd like to have another console than a DC compatible type of system. Everything else would be not worth for me to buy it ;) since it would kill the DC scene...

quzar

June 29th, 2004, 05:52

Sega is just relaxing, licking it's wounds and regrouping. they will be back as long as their games keep selling(gotta keep the company going). personally I would like to see some new money in SEGA. you know a buy out or a merger. *wouldn't it be wierd if sega and microsoft got together?

maybe the Xscape or DreamBox. watta ya think?

(yes I know about the WinCE kernal in the DC)

Apparently you dont know, because there is no WinCE kernal in the DC. People think that just because the little logo says WinCE compatible (or on some "developed for WinCE") but there is nothing IN the DC having to do with windows, its all in the software.

Saoshyant

June 29th, 2004, 06:00

But that's exactly what I'm saying, JMD! A Dreamcast 2 should only be an extended DC, or else I wouldn't call it DC2, but a new SEGA system. WIth Sammy on their side they have money now, so people stop saying they haven't. Imagine a SEGA employee was reading this or the other post? Seeing so much negative feedback, s/he would tell SEGA "It's not worth it. They don't believe us."

quzar

June 29th, 2004, 08:06

If SEGA make a new console, they won't target the mass public.
I think a well done and low cost console for SEGA and arcade fans should be great.

An extended DC (same kind of architecture with a recent video card and more powerfull CPU, a standard DVD-ROM) at 80&#8364; with few new games each month should find a public. *A low cost game SDK (open as GP32 ?) should be also nice for small companies.

Even the same hardware, with faster busses and rams and more ram would be immensely more powerful, especially if it had bundled broadband and DVD.

curt_grymala

June 29th, 2004, 08:35

That would be sweet. I think it would be kind of cool to see some sort of add-on for the DC, in the same vein as the 32x and the SegaCD, but better. Of course, that would never happen, because the Genesis was still commercially viable when those were released. It would be silly for Sega to release add-ons for a console that is no longer being manufactured.

It would be kind of nice to see a new Dreamcast, but I guarantee that it wouldn't have the ability to read the CD-R's that our current DC's can. It would have to be modded in order to use homebrew on it.

Saoshyant

June 29th, 2004, 12:28

It still might be compatible with homebrew, as long as there isn't a real protection against it. Because if it is DC2, it should be compatible with the DC1's software (games and specific code). If we understand this and the fact it will also probrably be compatible with Audio CDs... However the homebrew must be only DC1's specific as I doubt they will use the same programming and bootstrap routines with DC2. Anyhow this is all speculation, but hopefully not vain.

Cap'n 1time

June 29th, 2004, 13:17

I doubt many developers would just jump in with a new sega console after they have failed so much in the past. Because of this i agree that it should be like the gp32. The could do this all for 99 (whatever you call them) i think thats about $130 us. release a few games every once in a while, and make the system open source. I am sure there is alot of reasons this wouldnt work that im not thinking of... but wouldnt it be cool?

Another thought is what if Nintendo fused with Sega. The origonal 16 bit console warriors joining forces... wouldnt that be cool?!

They could also concider a handheld device, like a portable dc or somthing. but that wouldnt be cool because the gp32 and the dc are like brother and sister.

I highly doubt that sega will ever make another console, but thats what they said about the saturn, so who knows.

What kind of hardware would you want to see in the next (possible) DC?

quzar

June 29th, 2004, 14:24

for it to be backwards compatible it would have to be an SH-5 or higher end SH-4 (they have 400Mhz versions), a next gen Pvr chip, and just loads of ram(1gb of ram should do it? hehe)

Saoshyant

June 29th, 2004, 14:57

The SH5-100 is the latest SuperH chip. It's clocked at 900 MHz and it's back-compatible with the SH-4. You put 2 PowerVRs and maybe a Geometry Engine and it rocks! Less than 200 MB DDR RAM would be more than enough. DC2 is a game system, not a Windows PC that eats and eats and eats RAM. With a good management of resources, more memory becomes useless and very expensive. Think about the consumers. Then there's also the required DVD-Drive...

Cap'n 1time

June 29th, 2004, 15:02

(1gb of ram should do it? hehe)

1 gig?! what for?!

I think a hard drive would be cool. IMO the current dc video is fine, but better video probably wouldnt add much to the price tag. I think it should have support for HD TV's. It would be cool to see it linux based, as linux is powerfull, easy to modify, and free.

I also think DVD support is important now. 650 megs just isnt enough anymore.

I also think new controlls are important. IMHO the current DC controllers suck and were cheaply made. I think something like the xbox's would be good, as its great for fpsers. Also rather than a seperate broadband adapter and 56k, they should fallow sony's exampleand just put both jacks on one adapter.

As for the hardrive, the hardrive dosnt have to be that big. 5 gigs should be just fine, however i think it should have some kind of add on for more hardrive space.

What do you think it should look like?

guymelef

June 29th, 2004, 17:10

whatever

Eric

June 29th, 2004, 17:41

that site is a fake the pic you were looking at was not a dreamcast 2 one thing i could tell you the reason why it looks like a ps2 with the logo from a game called D2

Saoshyant

June 29th, 2004, 19:14

What site Eric, the only URL posted in this topic is the one from SEGA.com's main board.

Anyway, it's good to discuss the specification of the DC2, but it's pointless unless we all show SEGA how important DC2 would be to us. And please, don't start saying the same things everyone does, that SEGA has no money, that DC2 has no market... We don't know the future, but I do know that if we'll never do anything, nothing will ever be done.

Eric

June 29th, 2004, 19:43

well i am going to say it sega does not have enough money since the dreamcast flopped i am not saying its a bad system at all as i have the system but seen as how there were people out there who made boot ups illegal ones nobody needed to purchase a game the just downloaded it and burned and played sega gave a message to these illegal hackers to ask them how they are doing this no message was returned as they kept doing it also when the net became that you had to pay for it people became to think that dreamcast online was already unstable to have to pay for it so now that is the whole reason why its down and under i read lots of news articles you will only see a new system when they make more money from XBOX,PS2,GameCube,GBA and the new systems coming out so no dreamcast2 is coming out soon and i dont think that will be the name of the new system i am sorry but i do think this post is a waste of time seen as how it is impossible for sega to make a new system not enough money

quzar

June 29th, 2004, 19:43

i was kidding about the ram... making a parody about how everyone is always complaining about how little ram it has when the alternatives have less or very little more.

guymelef

June 29th, 2004, 21:33

like i said, i don't think money has anything to do with it.
I think it's a smart business move by sega to just sit this one out.
and like I said, sega will be back...just you wait

curt_grymala

June 29th, 2004, 21:39

like i said, i don't think money has anything to do with it.
I think it's a smart business move by sega to just sit this one out.
and like I said, sega will be back...just you wait

I agree with that 100%. A lot of people thought Sega was down for the count after the Genesis/Megadrive ended production. Nobody ever expected Sega to unleash the Dreamcast on us five or ten years later. We will see Sega make at least one more resurgence in the next decade or so.

Saoshyant

June 30th, 2004, 06:38

Of course they will come back! The videogame industry is worth around 10 billion dolars! SEGA just needs to find the right allies and I think no company will be stupid enough to not ally itself with SEGA. SEGA has the experiece, the others have new views and/or money. As simple as that.

Anyway, it seems that in the SEGA main board people finally decided the name should not be DC2/Dreamcast 2, but Neo Dream, where people would then say ND aka Dreamcast 2. More, the design should also come back to the old black fashion. Or that is the opinion of most people.

I think one good think we could do now is to post all the ideas we could regarding a way to DC2/Neo Dream not fail in the western market.

Oh and 1timeuser, DC1 used 1,2GB disks called GD-ROMs, not CDs of 650MB. If you don't know or realize that, that means you are one of those that never bought an original game and that is disgusting, for it shows no respect or support for the machine we all love.

Cap'n 1time

June 30th, 2004, 06:46

Oh and 1timeuser, DC1 used 1,2GB disks called GD-ROMs, not CDs of 650MB. If you don't know or realize that, that means you are one of those that never bought an original game and that is disgusting, for it shows no respect or support for the machine we all love.

I own at least 30 DC games, i just didnt realize about the whole gdrom thing. I figured by gdrom it was some kind of driver like with the xbox how it spins dvd's backwards. Please dont put words in my mouth. Sorry if i offended or confused anyone.

Cap'n 1time

June 30th, 2004, 06:53

You should all also know, the specs i have been posting are just what i think a great, cheap and yet effeciant machine should look like. I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas to make it cheap and yet able to compete with modern systems. Also we should concider that THE NEXT GENERATION OF SYSTEMS IS ALMOST APON US! so if they were to have a new dc, or neo dream (which in my opinion sounds like a gay rally or parade) it would have to be able to compete with the next generation. We probably will look at mainstream ghz processors, lots of ram, stunning video and sound, not to mention cool features that will make it differant from any other system.

Once again, sorry about the gdrom thing, i just misunderstood. even so 1.2 gb's still probably wont be enough for a new disk media for the next console.

quzar

June 30th, 2004, 07:23

Once again, sorry about the gdrom thing, i just misunderstood. even so 1.2 gb's still probably wont be enough for a new disk media for the next console.

GC discs are almost exactly same cpacity as GD-Roms. All that matters is how good the developers are at saving space. Have you seen the 96kb Quake3 clone?

Saoshyant

June 30th, 2004, 08:51

No problem 1timeuser but the way you talked it looked like it. Anyway, people like those that say I support the machine but never buy any game freak me out of disgust.

I was the first or one of the first to mention the DVD-drive, of course it can't be just GD-ROM, but for the people that don't know it it's also the platform used together in the Naomi 2 arcade boards.

96kb Quake3 clone? Please, that can't exist. Not even by compressing a lot of data it would ever go to that. However if you told 96MB I could believe it. Anyhow I'd like to see that. As a writer I see that only by writing a chapter of a book the text-only file would be almost 90kb, so how the heck can it ever be a bootleg game?

quzar

June 30th, 2004, 09:31

if i say it exists it exists buddy. why would i lie?

http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger.html#dload

there it is. it is only one map, but the point is that it is a full engine, 5 weapons and a bunch of different enemies. sound, textures and awsome lighting effects. Look at the specs and note it takes a long time to load if your computer is slow.

Christuserloeser

June 30th, 2004, 09:52

;D Awesome!

Saoshyant

June 30th, 2004, 12:25

Awesome indeed, unless it's not true. I have a Pentium 4 1700 MHz but couldn't put it to work. Maybe it's WinXP... Anyway, it should really be amazing because I haven't even seen viruses so small, much less a 3d game!

Anyway if this is true accept my apologizes quzar. Getting to the point, you can be sure developers wouldn't be stupid to release things like Puzzle Boblle in an entire and expensive DVD. So, I believe the new system should support also the less expensive GD-ROMs as an alternative to smaller games; it wouldn't require much changes of the firmware anyway.

quzar

June 30th, 2004, 12:47

It requires a DirectX8 compatible video card. That may be your problem.

On the DC there were a lot of games that fit onto CDs yet GD-Roms were used instead so i dont know about the price issue, but yes.

Cap'n 1time

July 1st, 2004, 07:57

Do any of you know exactly how much money it took to produce a gd rom? I agree with the fact that it should support not only dvd media, but smaller cheaper ones too. I think they should make the media run backwards like the xbox, as its a pain in the ass to back up games like that. Mabey the ability to run cdr's should be limited by the company. Mabey they could disable disk swapping and limit certin types of hardware that are required by dvd or gdrom games so they wont run for cdr games or cdrw games. also some kind of special compression for the gd rom and dvd games so that even if people can rip them, they can't burn them. does anyone have any ideas for security?

quzar

July 1st, 2004, 11:05

The media itself is mostly identical, its literally just a high quality CD.

Saoshyant

July 4th, 2004, 06:14

curt_grymala

July 4th, 2004, 06:27

It's not a new thng since some DVDs have this feature too.

Did DVD's have that feature before GDRoms came out? I was under the impression that dual-layered DVD's only started coming out in the last few years.

Saoshyant

July 4th, 2004, 07:24

Don't know about that... You should check the DVD FAQ, a very big document with everything about DVD, which I can't remember it's URL now (search in google).

Saoshyant

September 21st, 2004, 22:10

Hey look :o someone just ressurected this thread! Oh my it was me.... Have you people seen the latest plans of SEGA Sammy Holdings? Maybe there's really space for a Dreamcast 2 after all. Comments please

URL: http://www.sega.co.jp/IR/en/cr/pdf/20040917.pdf

quzar

September 21st, 2004, 22:43

although interesting it pretty much says nothing about developing new consumer level hardware, only bolstering online gaming.

milfzor

September 21st, 2004, 23:02

my first post here...but here it goes........a cd disc is MORE than enough room for most games, given decent coding..........a dvd disc is one better...anything above that is a waste in my opionion unless your talking just LONG games........take ps2 for example, look at a lot of their older games (the ones with the blue backs) those are all cd based....these days more of em are dvd based, but still the point remains that there are VERY few ps2 games that are multiple discs...i can only think of around 3 of em myself......dvd media is PLENTY of space...as for copy protection...there isnt gonna be one that is concievable for a long time......best bet would be to use propritary media and not allow booting of cdr or dvdr at all.....but even at that, that can easily be fixed much in the same manner that you can mess with your dreamcast to make it read cdrw discs........i dont think that this system is gonna happen, but hey, its a cool idea for sure :)

Saoshyant

September 22nd, 2004, 09:48

although interesting it pretty much says nothing about developing new consumer level hardware, only bolstering online gaming.

Yeah, it doesn't say much, but one can hope right? Anyway, the best way to rule the online market like they want to, is to make online games compatible between multiple platforms and regions. Like PC and their possible new system and even mobile phones. It's their call.

Alexvrb

September 22nd, 2004, 14:18

What? GD-ROMs are not high quality CDs! They are double layered CDs, which can take the double amount of a normal CD. It's not a new thng since some DVDs have this feature too. It has a great drawback, in where a small scratch can do a lot more damage (i.e. corrupt data) than in a normal CD.That is specific to DVDs. GD-ROMs are *not* dual-layered. Where the heck did you hear that? It has data seperated into two REGIONS, not two layers. The one low-density region is on the inside of the disc (near the center in other words), and can be read by regular CD drives. The outside section is the part where they put the game, the high-density part. Dual Layer discs are completely different, and involve a translucent data layer physically on top of an opaque data layer. That's a lot more complicated, which is why we are only recently seeing DVD burners capable of writing to new DL DVD+R/RW discs.

http://mc.pp.se/dc/gdrom.html

The SH5-100 is the latest SuperH chip. It's clocked at 900 MHz and it's back-compatible with the SH-4. You put 2 PowerVRs and maybe a Geometry Engine and it rocks!I don't know if a standard SH-5 has the extra instructions specific to the SH-4 in the DC. Not like it really matters with that kind of power. Also, you wouldn't use two outdated PVR cores and a seperate geometry chip. You've got "Naomi 3" (or whatever they'll end up calling it) technology to play with. That means instead of using 2 Series 2 and a T&L unit, you use a Series 5 PVR chip.

Saoshyant

September 22nd, 2004, 19:30

You are quite right about the GD-Roms, thank you for clearing out. However, you are wrong about the rest. Putting two powerVRs is stupid yes, it was kind of a idea I got while examining Naomi 2 hardware, but the geometry engine would be really cool. Moreover, the SH5 does is backwards-compatible with SH4 instructions, meaning you could play Dreamcast 1 games easialy with some optimization. No extra CPUs nor anything else needed.

quzar

September 22nd, 2004, 20:01

Alexvrb

September 22nd, 2004, 20:32

On the SH5, I'm afraid it is as Quzar said. You can't assume it has those specific instructions unless you see it on paper. Although I said it didn't really matter with that kind of power. After all, you could probably build a software layer to handle those instructions.

Also, I don't think you understand what the geometry chip in the Naomi 2 was for. The Series 2 chips do not have hardware T&L, meaning that work has to be done on the SH4. So when they added a second PVR chip they used a dedicated chip (codenamed "Elan" I believe). It takes the burden off the SH4, which is good because 1) It frees up the SH4 for other things and 2) The second PVR would push more polys than the single SH4 can handle.

Now that you understand that Elan was a way of adding dedicated T&L, I'll tell you why they don't need it anymore. You see, Series 5 already HAS T&L in its core, and in fact it is a lot more modern. It is probably DX9 compatible, programmable T&L, much like the newest Geforce cards in functionality.

Saoshyant

September 23rd, 2004, 15:22

Oh for God's sake, I know that Alex. I also read the segatech.com pages, but maybe it was my fault that I did not make myself very clear, sorry for that. Though I really do not know anything about the Series5, can you give me one or two links for it please? Quzar I believe there are no special instructions on the SEGA custom SH-4, but if there are you only need to consider that if SEGA was to make a new system they would not use a standard SH-5. Now about the idea of the Geometry Engine, I did not mean just a Elan (T&L) chip like the Videologic one in the Naomi 2. I wanted to say a different hardware that instead of coming from the makers of PowerVR like the GE on the N2, would complement the GPU with new technology like let's say Truform. So, what I mean with this is that the GE could for instance be created by ATi. The idea was to complement anything a PowerVR would lack not just T&L (which apparently the Series5 has and I did not know). Hope I make my point clear this time, sorry. Maybe it is not a good idea, but I do think it could work, though possibly making the system more expensive, I don't know.... Comments please (and don't forget to post a link to info on the Series5 please).

Alexvrb

September 23rd, 2004, 21:26

The custom SH4 in the DC most certainly has extra instructions. You could probably just emulate them for backwards compatibility mode, as I tried to say.

You don't want to go throwing extra chips in for no reason. The Series 5 chip could do all of that, just like any other modern programmable GPU. If it's not fast enough for you, you integrate more units into the GPU core. You don't need to go off an use extra chips unless you have to. I mean at that point wouldn't it be better to include a second SH5, since it could help with anything, being a powerful general purpose chip?

Series 5 is what is going into Sega's next arcade system. http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040522053649.html

Fishyrooter

April 10th, 2005, 14:34

if anyne want's to submit any more ideas on this do it on the dreamcast 2 ideas thread posted by Fishyrooter(me) please :) :)

Christuserloeser

April 10th, 2005, 14:59

Hm, let's do it the other way around, won't we ;)

Mental2k

April 10th, 2005, 15:15

lol, for the record here's wat I said over there.

Fishyrooter, DC 2 aint ever gonna happen, i think this thread has been done somewhere else on the forum and for a third point, why would sega-sammy look here and do what we say?

The only chance for a DC2 would be a suped up Atomiswave home machine, which would be more a DC 1.5 than a DC 2. And it would proabaly cost a lot of money and not be worth it int he long run.

And wat ptr said.