My opinion on cracking FW

[IndianCheese]

Alright, now. Here is what I say about cracking the firmware.

Game exploits are great, but they take a while to load, offer no/little flash modding, and no downgrading, so that is our final "out". I think that hackers should focus attention on the XMB hacking. If someone were to find an exploit, however, the best idea would be to tell others you found an exploit and leave it at that until Sony releases new firmwares so the features are out alongside the homebrew. (i.e. someone finds a flash exploit. they tell others on a forum but dont give any details. when the ps1 emulator is released, he unveils his hack.)

Also, would it be possible to create a homebrew program that executes the processes of another and writes it to raw code that is similar to the original? I don't think it would be difficult, seeing as the text of the code must still be within the program for it to be deciphered (try running homebrew through fileassistant and exiting the program with the home button. a portion of code flashes onto the screen for a brief moment alongside the "Please wait..." text.)

I am personally surprised that the Sony PSP Application writer/compiler has not been leaked yet. I have seen some screenshots of it and realized how close that milk and honey really is to homebrew developers and those who enjoy it. I don't, personally, think that a "digital sigging program" for homebrew will ever be made because that would involve the decompiling/recompiling of the EBOOT, as I described above, which no one has seemed to attempt. It's not just as simple as injecting a line of jumble into an EBOOT. Maybe there is no signature. Maybe the PSP checks the hex for "bridge data," which could be a specific string of hex data that appears at the crossing point of data from one file within the EBOOT to another (like possibly the end of DATA.PSP and the beginning of PARAM.SFO). Who knows?

Just my opinion. Leave yours, but plz don't flame me for my thoughts.

[cloud_952]

The problem with there being a sigging program and decompiling/recompiling programs is that we are now doing something that is illegal. It really sucks, because that's what happened with the Xbox scene. Sure, there's alot of cool stuff that you can do on a chipped Xbox, but the authors of the programs are also using illegal software to make it, which means that they could be prosecuted. No one likes doing that. It's also the principle of the thing. Right now, people argue with Sony because all they want to do is run programs that they write on their own console which they bought. They don't want to hurt anyone. Once you cross the line into illegal activity, you don't go back, and then people lose respect for your cause.

[b8a]

Additionally, what's the point in simply announcing that an exploit has been found? 1) That's what "noobs" have been proclaiming for a long time anyway (exploits without proof, think of A-holes like chrisfile. If this were operating policy in the homebrew community, immature freaks like him would start popping up left and right), and 2), lets say that the exploit was announced (but not detailed) by someone reputable. That lets Sony know that something IS out there, and possibly gives them clues of where to look for it. I still maintain that it's best to keep entirely quiet about any legitimate discoveries until after the Christmas season. If there are exploits to be found, it's entirely possible that Sony will find them on their own, but I'd rather play it safe and not have the entire homebrew community working for them for free and shooting themselves in the head at the same time. Just my opinion, and I'm sure that if any legitimate exploits are found, they're going to be revealed irregardless...

[IndianCheese]

To those who think of it as piracy and such: In the words of a famous lawyer: "They are your bytes. You should be able to do whatever you want with them."

[N64DUDE]

true. i paid 300euro for my psp and i should be able to do whatever i want with it. i paid for it after all. Sony blocking even homebrew again on v2.7 made me sick. there wasnt even a iso loader for 2.6.

i was against piracy on the psp before that. but now they have blocked homebrew once more (why? its doing sony no harm whatsoever!) i hope someone creates a downgrader or iso loader for v2.6/2.7 so we can all stick our middle fingers up at sony. I for one will use them if they are released now, but as i said until sony blocked homebrew again i was all against piracy, but not now.

[robotdevil]

I'm still against piracy. And if all you care about is homebrew why bother to update in the first place? I run a 2.00 PSP because I can't give up my NesterJ. I'd like to play things like Mega Man X, but it's just not worth it to upgrade. Secondly, you don't OWN your PSP, you lease the rights to use it. Read your EULA (End User License Agreement) in the back of your manual and you'll see. Sony, for all legal purposes, still owns the PSP unit and all software involved. Any use of the system outside it's intended purposes can carry civil and/or criminal penalties. As does modifying the code. There are a number of threads about this very thing. I personally think it sucks, but I also understand the companies desire to maintain control of their 2 billion dollar investment (Yes Sony spends alot of money in R&D).

So while I will keep looking for ways around Sony's control, I'm also not going to bitch about them updating their product. Fight the system, don't just bitch about it.

[BALL_SAC]

I personallly belive that there is a potential exploit in the RSS channels. There has to be a way to hack that.

[Parris]

I am a complete novice and have never even attempted to hack into any console software or hardware. My life is spent dealing with audio & visual installations (mainly for a very large retail company in the UK), which combines my love of film, music and ultimately gaming.

My gaming interest began when I was 12yrs old and given an 8-bit Amstrad 6128, which at the time was state of the art and worth £1,000. I was immediately hooked.

My query is really relating to a point that was made in the above thread.

If hacking into the hardware (or software to exploit the hardware) is deemed illegal and the activity is generally shut down by the manufacturers, then what is the point of spending vast amounts of time & effort hacking into these systems in the first place?

I realise it sounds a naive question and I also understand the thrill of achieving something deemed by the arrogant manufacturers as 'impossible' must drive a great many people into this kind of thing, but it's not like a mountain 'I climbed it because it was there'. Climbing this mountain could make you infamous amongst other hackers and gamers, but you are only alerting these manufacturers to the issues and as mention previously in this thread 'doing their work for them' without getting a penny for your hard earned efforts!

From my side, as a regular gamer I have never owned a piece of illegal, hacked or chipped gaming equipment. All of those that I know who have end up regretting it as they report bugs, issues, hardware faults and the like.

The idea of actually developing software sounds amazing. I've seen the developers kits for the PS1, PS2 and the Gamecube and drooled over the possiblity of just putting together software along the likes of early BitMap titles (Xenon etc) for these consoles as more & more I find the titles I want to play are no longer being produced in favour of flashy, graphics driven & boring rehashes of material I have already seen. It takes a great title these days to entice me into spending £50 on a game for my 360.

If the bulk of the activity you guys are doing is either borderline or actually illegal and you face the possibility of prosecution and your work being buried by large corporates, then why indulge in getting your fingers burnt?

I recall the famous Sony V Connectix case. At the time the PS1 reigned supreme and a PS1 emulator was produced by Connectix that changed a standard Apple iMac into a rather lack lustre PS1 (the audio was poor, the graphic clunky and only a certain percentage of games worked), but Sony went ape! They tied Connectix in so much legal red tape that by the time it was over (given that the judge stated (and I think this is where the comment already quoted fits in) that an end user can do whatever they want with a product they own) the PS2 was due for release and the emulator was useless.

Connectix were bought out by Sony and that was that! Large corporate manufacturer protecting it's assests inspite of the legal view.

My own personal stance is that I am completely against piracy. Not just for obvious reasons (probably documented in a host of forums & threads), but mostly because I feel that we tend to disregard & possibly even neglect the fact that someone (not just a large, faceless conglomeration) has put their heart felt work into producing a product or piece of software for pleasure rather than pain.

Of all the industries that truly deserve two fingers stuck up at them, the entertainment industry (be it music, film or gaming) seems the least threatening and the most 'entertaining' (in all senses of the word). It's only right that these individuals or organisations should be able & allowed to protect their assests.

Most people would agree that you shouldn't just be able to walk into a library and start destroying books with little regard. Same with art work hanging in galleries or piece of historic architecture etc. A great deal of pleasure is derived from these pieces and by taking them away they are lost. They may not be unique or even to your taste, but some form of protection should prevail surely?

Are the likes of Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo & all plethora of software developers not within their rights to protect their developments so that the majority of people can enjoy the benefits of their hard labour?

Surely to just find ways and means of by-passing security features and allow pirate copies of software is just defeating the purpose of your aims, which is surely to enjoy the whole experience of gaming? If you take away a manufacturer or developers ability to claw back revenue (and I understand it can run into the millions per title and billions per machine) then they go bust, produce less or worse still, produce rubbish they know will sell but costs less to develop!

Genuine and serious comments please? I'm no do gooder or about to faint at the mere whiff of illegal activity. I am genuinely interested and can't for the life of me see any reasonable excuse or reason why someone should feel that they are entitled and within their rights to subvert or manipulate protected systems/data purely for their own purpose. Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, I am just really curious as to what you guys (who are obviously involved in this area) think?

Some of the thread comments have been very interesting and I can also see that there are those involved in this area that are also against piracy.

Please, feel free to rant back at me! I am playing devils advocate somewhat.

[robotdevil]

Great post, a bit long, but great questioning. It's not our right, duty or entitlement to subvert authority, it's merely our upbringing. Well, us US folks anyway. Mostly, the reason I support the homebrew scene is because those development kits cost $15,000-$25,000. And for no good reason (Nintendo states on their site that it's to ensure only commited developers). Some commercial games are made for the sake of selling, some are made to be generally treasured. but most homebrew games are made for the sheer love of gaming.

The other reason is that some of these games being ported have been abandoned and left for dead (i.e. my project <---shameless self promotion-- Privateer PSP Gold). EA has been contacted, and they know this is happening, they just don't care. If I hafta subvert the authority of the large evil corporation to get my game running, so be it. But if asked, I would stop. Most of the stuff produced (at least on this site) is actually helping the sales of the PSP. And with homebrew apps running from the memory stick the battery life goes from 3hours to 6hours.

So there's alot of good reasons to play with fire. If nobody played with fire we wouldn't have pyrotechnicians. For some a learning tool, for others something to occupy thier time. For me, love of the oldies.

Hope that helps.

Also, it's no coinicence that the "devils advocate" is being answered by the Robot Devil...

[Kaiser]

To those who think of it as piracy and such: In the words of a famous lawyer: "They are your bytes. You should be able to do whatever you want with them."


i was against piracy on the psp before that. but now they have blocked homebrew once more (why? its doing sony no harm whatsoever!) i hope someone creates a downgrader or iso loader for v2.6/2.7 so we can all stick our middle fingers up at sony. I for one will use them if they are released now, but as i said until sony blocked homebrew again i was all against piracy, but not now.

Don't attempt to justify PSP Piracy. People should buy their damn games, there is no excuse for UMD piracy. People who create ISO loaders should not be respected, we don't need those coders in our scene.

[Digital_Utopia]

I'm still against piracy. And if all you care about is homebrew why bother to update in the first place? I run a 2.00 PSP because I can't give up my NesterJ. I'd like to play things like Mega Man X, but it's just not worth it to upgrade. Secondly, you don't OWN your PSP, you lease the rights to use it. Read your EULA (End User License Agreement) in the back of your manual and you'll see. Sony, for all legal purposes, still owns the PSP unit and all software involved. Any use of the system outside it's intended purposes can carry civil and/or criminal penalties. As does modifying the code. There are a number of threads about this very thing. I personally think it sucks, but I also understand the companies desire to maintain control of their 2 billion dollar investment (Yes Sony spends alot of money in R&D).

So while I will keep looking for ways around Sony's control, I'm also not going to bitch about them updating their product. Fight the system, don't just bitch about it.

you've made some good points, but I do have to ask..

what manual are you looking at? I bought PSP with firmware v2.0, and after your statement that we're basically "just leasing" the device from sony, I decided to check the manual.

and nowhere in the entire book is an ELUA..not at the end of the english section, and not at the end of the manual...only a warranty.

now I'm not saying that modding/hacking your psp won't violate the warranty...that's pretty much a given. but as to it being illegal? I have serious doubts about that claim.

based off of already documented laws, the only thing that would be illegal is sharing, or providing code (including the OS) copyrighted by Sony. that means that it would be illegal to publish orignal or modified source code, or original or modified OS files.

it is your legal right to do whatever you please with your PSP..mod it, hack it, throw it across the room..use it to control a nuclear reactor..it doesn't matter. as long as you're not infringing on sony's copyrights (or using it for illegal purposes obviously) there's nothing Sony or the law can do about it. however if you provide (for free or at a cost) software or hardware copyrighted by Sony..then they can take legal action.

and if what you say is indeed true...I seriously think that Sony is living in a dream land, because there's absolutely no basis for this belief of theirs.

EDIT: I think I've found where you got your ideas from...EULA counts for the PSP online, and (where you got your idea for "leasing") ELUA for the 'Public Beta Test Program' where this kind of 'leasing' idea would make sense...

[IndianCheese]

I agree. I think it is just plain wrong to be sued by a company for taking the faceplate off of a piece of equipment I payed cold, hard cash for.

[Parris]

Stepping back into this hot potato, I can clarify that by removing any part of the PSP or any other piece of equipment produced under licence is not actually illegal.

You will immediately void your warranty, which is the only legal obligation that any manufacturer holds with the customer in terms of ensuring that their equipment remains operational for a specific period of time.

I believe that this is different in the US, however in Europe the warranty automatically covers most items for 2 yrs, but only 1 yr in the UK (European laws are under review to be brought into the UK shortly).

Taking the face plate, off (as you put it) or infact completely disassembling would not be considered illegal.

As soon as you begin to 'engineer' the unit in terms of modification or enhancement with any product that is not licensed by a manufacturer triggers the section of law you mentioned in relation to backward engineering or rendering hardware/software.

It is illegal to adapt or modify the equipment - period! The rights of the manufacture & design remain with the manufacturer, which I personally think is what our previous poster was saying about 'leasing'. You don't actually lease the equipment as it is owned by the purchaser, yet the rights remain fully owned by the manufacturer, who obviously go to extreme lengths to protect them.

Other than the cost of development equipment & possibly being considered a legitimate developer and the notion that any disgarded or under-developed software is fair game, nobody has really provided a reasonable explination as to why they feel their actions are valid?

If you are on a website sharing your ideas, posting your findings, asking others for their input, then I think any manufacturer would reasonably consider your (or anyone looking at your ideas) as potentially a threat to their coyright as I have already seen people on this website posting their updates for anyone to download. That's precisely the kind of activity I think the manufacturer should be allowed to discourage and stop if necessary as it's distribution.

I particularly like the arguement that once you purchase an item it is yours to do whatever you like with it, as frankly that really isn't the case. It is clearly understood that if an end user uses any product for illegal purposes that they violate the terms of use.

It's a little like the premise that if you own a gun, you can store it in your own home, must ensure (in most countries) that you have a license and only use the gun in sporting situations (such as firing ranges). The moment you wander into the steet waving your Magnum at little ol' shop keepers face, you have violated those conditions and face criminal proceedings.

Take your PSP to bits, start messing around with it's guts and engineering mechanisms and I hate to inform you that you will indeed face criminal proceedings if caught. Getting caught just messing around at home is highly unlikely. It's only when you start to demonstrate your developments that anyone would be interested.

Just how closely certain bodies protect their interests is quite interesting. I found out on eBay when I tried to sell a PS2 with an internal harddrive. I started to get emails from the likes of FACT asking whether there were any software titles on the harddrive.

You might like to know that I used to work very closely with copyrighting issues for a the recording industry. I am no lawyer, but I do know what is legal under certain conditions as I was responsible for ensuring that as a business we never broke copyright.

Okay, leaving this arguement aside as I think we are looking at the same thing from a different perspective.

Can you really imagine discovering a loophole in a piece of OS or firmware and NOT posting your findings for other homebrew developers to use?

Is that not the purpose of this website? To share ideas and provide support?

In which case your arguement that it's only illegal activity if you 'spread the word' and it is no longer just for your own pleasure doesn't hold.

Personally, if I was angry with the likes of Sony and felt that they had under developed their product or were disregarding the feelings of an entire underground movement of homebrew developers, then I would possibly feel a great sense of justice in finding a mistake they had made, an error or loophole that could be exploited to assist your fellow developers.

Would you (or I) really keep that information to yourself? Can you really say, hand on heart that it wouldn't just appear as some freeware download somewhere, like millions of other hacked software titles or OS?

I would argue that some people may feel that this is a crusade against the conglomerates who dominate and control a market that 'should' by more open and available (like in the good old computer days) and in doing so they feel justified in posting their findings and opening up the possibility of others hacking / developing the systems.

Look at the famous Xbox hack, it took a matter of weeks if I remember rightly. Suddenly the impregnable, over protected bastion of console technology (an easy target with Bill Gates at the helm) was wide open!

Is it not just a bit of back patting? A means of self gratification and sticking your fingers up to the manufacturers who make wild claims of how robust and secure their technology is?

If not, can I then ask what precisely the homebrew & developing scene actually adds to the gaming market place? I've never even seen a homebrew title for my Dreamcast, Xbox, PS2 or 360 (obviously).

Still playing devil's advocate here, but genuinely interested as I also saw another thread on this site entitled "Homebrew - slowing the development of consoles or not?" which is possibly where I should have posted this query.

Thanks for replying!

[Parris]

Okay, from the thread responses I can see that there is a division between those who feel that piracy is justifiable and those who feel that it is an illegal activity and the law should be upheld.

Asking yet another potentially naive question in that case, is it possible for homebrew developers to produce software titles (be it games or otherwise) that will safely, automatically and effectively run as smoothly on the systems (in this case games consoles) without resorting to the use of illegal practices?

In other words, can you just piece together software titles that would run like any other piece of mass produced software, or do you need to manipulate either existing OS / firmware in order that the games console recognises the homebrew software?

I only ask because I know that in the past it was possible to just stick anything into most units and it would work. With the advent of the likes of cartridge readers etc that must have changed as you would need to produce a chip and have the cartridge PCB available.

As time has progressed I understand that manufacturers have increased the level of protection to avoid any 'unauthorised' coding being potentially loaded into their products.

If the answer to my query is yes, we are required to subvert the product / firmware or OS to use titles you are producing, then I can see some reasoning behind your arguement that manufacturers are locking you out of being able to produce material.

Can perhaps someone clarify? Thanks!

[robotdevil]

Mostly what I was talking about was not technically illegal, but could carry heavy penalties in civil court. And I'm speaking ONLY of the US. And I'll admit, to say that we only lease the PSP was a bit of a streatch, I was going for a bit of exaggeration to get the point across. Parris put it more correctly by saying that the manufacturers still own the rights to the hardware and we are not allowed to engineer modifications for it. We can take it apart, but to what purpose if we can't do anything? Personally I like engineering new things for stuff, but I still respect the manufacturers rights and keep it to myself (mostly). Anyway, just thought I'd clarify that. And thanks to Parris for taking the time to write a more precise anser to that.

[Parris]

thanks to Parris for taking the time to write a more precise answer to that.

You are more than welcome, although if it was clearer & more precise then it was by accident as you guys are far more technically adapt and skilled than I am.

I posted a very similar query relating to copyright and people's views on it on one of the Xbox forums to find out what general users & gamers think rather than those potentially involved in developing homebrew material.

You may be interested to read some of those comments, but I don't want to fill up yet more of this threads space as I realise I am piggy backing and changing the subject.

The thread is still running and currently has over 500 readers, 5 pages of responses and counting!

To say it is a hot topic would be an understatement.

Most users seem to accept copyright infrigement as part and parcel of modern living. The internet blew it wide open and means anything is fair game.

The general concencus is that the gaming (or other entertainment industries) are not really damaged by the piracy as those copying material never had any intention of purchasing the title in the first case.

It's also suggested that the industry makes enough money from legitimate users to sustain itself regardless.

Homebrew is seen (whether rightly or wrongly) as an essential aspect of gaming as it opens up possibilities that the manufacturers have either failed to develop or refuse to develop for various reasons.

Several PSP users suggested that as a standard model the PSP was a waste of money, but by using homebrew software they can effectively use it for streaming TV, Video and playing emulations of various other manufacturers material. I.E. Nintendo games in this instance.

It was also suggested that the manufacturers and the industry benefits from additional sales created by piracy. The try before you buy option, which leads to users purchasing the software titles they enjoy and want to spend money on.

On the otherside there was a very long debate contradicting practically all of the above.

The cost of DEV kits and locking out independent software & hardware developers was also touched on.

Ultimately there are two camps. Those who feel that copyright infringement is completely illegal, has no benefits and is costing the industry & consumer very dearly.

It was suggested that without having to tackle piracy that the entertainment industries would have a larger profit margin to use in successful R&D and therefore produce material of better quality more often.

The bulk of replies relating to copyright felt that certain forms of copyright infringement were inevitable and really the fault of the manufacture through the cost of hardware and software, letting the consumer down (i.e. raising expectations and producing rubbish) and restricting end users use of a particular product.

Again the 'it's mine, I can do what I like with it' was often suggested.

There is no clear answer. The industry wants us to adhere to their rules and regulations and frankly I fully appreciate why.

As I stated when discussing with someone their joy of being able to use Nintendo games on their PSP, surely Nintendo already produce a handheld, therefore not only does Nintendo lose out on the retail value of that person purchasing a console, but also the value of the software.

I still maintain my own impression that I appreciate why homebrew occurs. The fact that piracy is rife is a serious worry to both the industry and the legal purchasers of hardware & software as ultimately the honest user pays the penalty in hiked prices.

Over the course of the discussions however I have come to understand the frustrations of a seriously talented bunch of technically minded people who 2 decades ago would potentially have been industry leaders rather than illegal outsiders.

There was a time that software houses were more common than chip shops and that has been possibly controlled and damaged too much by piracy and the industry itself. If as you say DEV kits are outwith the budget of anyone other than the industry itself, then over course too many talents people are locked out and look to breaking the hardware to gain entry.

Perhaps it would be of greater benefit to the manufacturers to consider cheaper development kits?

Instead of tackling the issue of piracy and homebrew, it appears (in my limited capacity and knowledge) that the industry is currently targetting the wrong end of the piracy chain. It is surely too late by the time the discs are being fired off a production line or the firmware / OS or software has been placed on the Internet.

For an $11billion industry, piracy may actually seem like mere chicken feed, yet I get the impression that it hits them harder than they admit rather than it being less (as many responders suggested).

This led to a more general discussion on piracy and touched on the obvious damage caused to the music industry over the last few years. Having been involved (at a very marginal position) in the music industry I have experience of just how damaging loss of earning can be to such an industry.

The trouble with piracy is that the manufacturers place their trust in the end user to utilise their product within the guidelines and legal framework stated in the terms and conditions. Knowing full well that a certain percentage will immeditately toss the legal aspects to one side and attempt to backwards engineer the software / hardware, the industry further protects itself by trying to ensure that it is as difficult as they can possibly make it to break their codes etc.

It is a perpetual battle of wills and one which is clearly here to stay.

There appears to be a great deal of satisfaction gained on either side of the camp from those who create the unbreakable and those who destroy the barriers and prove that the lock can be picked.

It's really just a game in itself, existing only to serve curiosity in the minds of those talented enough to break the locks. After the lock is broken however, the floodgate opens and no matter how innocent the initial intention to just 'teach the manufacturer a lesson' may seem in the lock pickers mind, there are thousand willing to open that lock and use it for far less legal means.

The net result is that the lock picker can face stiff legal challenges and the industry knows that they have to redesign the locks. A costly piece of development I am sure you will agree.

Sony may be large enough to withstand the leakage caused by open coding, but I wonder how many manufacturers (such as Sega) just couldn't withstand the continual onslaught.

Personally I miss Sega as a hardware developer and I hate to think of all the software manufacturers who went to the wall for no real reason.

Worth thinking about perhaps - yet I can understand the fascination in the mind of the lock picker and they will always exist no matter how hard the industry tries to stop them.

Who pays however?

I do believe wholeheartedly that the manufacturers need to reliquish a certain amount of control as far as independent developers go in order to legalise the actions of a vast army of people who have the talent to bring a lot of positive development to the industry.