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View Full Version : Couple of questions



Mental2k
October 1st, 2004, 17:04
May I enter custom covers I made for comercial games?

Does the "sega" and "DC swirl" symbols count as copyright material?

Also can I have the curve down the side of my cover?

MetaFox
October 1st, 2004, 18:14
I think Dan Potter's suggestion of having a homebrew template for all covers is a good idea.

ie: no sega logo or dreamcast swirl, or icons for peripherals. We should create our own icons - and have a standardized artset for homebrew - based on the US and/or EU/JP covers, but not using any copyrighted material - ie: you can have the black swoop, but not the Dreamcast and swirl.

And ESRB logos are out as well, unless you send the game out to have them grade it (and who wants to pay for that? :P)

Actually, as of right now - I'm starting up DIRB (Dreamcast Independant Rating Board) - if anyone wants to join as judges for content - PM me.

DCDayDreamer
October 1st, 2004, 18:50
I remember Dan making that comment after DCEvo started using the new temoplates I made up.
The NTSC black swoop (used the white one - a bit smaller) is there with PAL blue for the front, the back uses JAP NTSC design with PAL blue, all in all, a mix 'n' match of all covers.
Dan was concerned about the SEGA and the swirl on the cover templates.
I even remember my reply to him (went something like this):

I mentioned the fact that we couldn't please everyone and if it came to SEGA giving us a hard time about it, I'd spend the rest of my days hacking the IP bin from showing SEGA and their blurb on screen even with legal homebrew releases.

My point was (and is), does it really matter?, we're using a SEGA console for something it wasn't meant to be used for. Even if the SEGA blurb was taken out of the IP bin we'd only be hiding it, same as cover logo's, I know the logo's are copyrighted but most people seem to make (and want) covers to recognise the DC game via similar covers to the commercial ones.

That's only my opinion by the way, I didn't post that to start a war :P.

MetaFox
October 1st, 2004, 19:27
I mentioned the fact that we couldn't please everyone and if it came to SEGA giving us a hard time about it, I'd spend the rest of my days hacking the IP bin from showing SEGA and their blurb on screen even with legal homebrew releases. My point was (and is), does it really matter?No, but I think we shouldn't use Sega's intellectual property at least out of respect for Sega. We don't need to use it, so why should we? It's just as easy to make a homebrew template that doesn't have the copyrighted graphics, using graphics that are just as eye-catching as the originals.

MetaFox
October 2nd, 2004, 05:58
Correct No real respect to sega ether way no permission is given to run any thing on the dreamcast other then retail games. Images including bor mods and many games in the dc scene contain copyright images. Bit late now the horse has bolted. Every release containes to make it boot a copyright image that is inside the ip.bin that image has the same rights as the covers or logos or any other copyright image.I assume you're talking about the first bootstrap in the IP.bin?

The two bootstraps in the IP.bin that can be rewritten have been rewritten. The first bootstrap can not. We are within our rights under international fair use laws to use that bootstrap, as it has to remain unchanged in order to boot. A company is not permitted to disallow another company or individual from using proprietary code if that code is required for independant code to function.

Using images from other companies in your productions, however, is in no way covered under fair use. It's the intellectual property of the company in question, and you have no legal right to use those images without permission.

DCDayDreamer
October 2nd, 2004, 10:40
I hope I haven't started off any serious legal debates with my earlier post - it was only an opinion :-[.
In case anyone is wondering - I do respect SEGA, and yes I'm guilty of using their name and logo on covers, but only as a mark respect and not to blatantly disregard copyright (if that makes sense) :P.

Back on track here...

How about I try and make up some cover templates for the comp? maybe using Darksaviour69's logos on the templates I already have. If someone does go to the effort of making covers, they could easily paste in their design into the 'tabbo' templates for their own use ;).

DCDayDreamer
October 2nd, 2004, 11:42
A quick example of what I meant:

http://www.dcevolution.net/dsdevelopment/project9/uploads/fsamp1.jpg

Maybe someone else has a better idea (and is better at art) ;).

Saoshyant
October 2nd, 2004, 14:59
Homebrew is your own work, your own imagination, thus it should have your own covers for it and if possible do not include the SEGA logo on it as it is not licensed work. Moreover, never charge money for it. I have seen some people on ebay-like websites selling homebrew and emulators for Dreamcast, those people just do not know in what kind of sh*t they are getting into. Anyway, I even think as standard the DC homebrew scene should really have its own logo. Why not make a competition for the best ones, then exposing them on public so we all could vote for the best one choosen over the best ones (did it sound confusing?). It involves two steps. First, participation of those interested, work that would be judged by a few decent people, maybe volunteers, second exposing the first 5 ones or so, so everyone could vote for the really best one. Then it would be used as the standard logo. Oh well, whatever, I don't really think anyone's gonna acre for what I say, but here it is as I felt inclined to post it.

DCDayDreamer
October 2nd, 2004, 15:45
That's a very good suggestion, we really could do with our own standard homebrew template for the DC scene.

Of course the most popular printed covers will always be the commercial ones that go with the poor quality rips of commercial games available on the web (strange why people still use that stuff when the real deal is so cheap).

The big problem for Dan and co is that they've ventured into the commercial world with DC releases, any logo or licensed text is a big NO-NO on any cover. As for the rest of us we're a fan base, that doesn't give us any excuse of course for using any logo, it's just seems to be the norm up to now. Who knows?, things may change in the future!.

Ian_micheal
October 3rd, 2004, 00:28
I assume you're talking about the first bootstrap in the IP.bin?

The two bootstraps in the IP.bin that can be rewritten have been rewritten. The first bootstrap can not. We are within our rights under international fair use laws to use that bootstrap, as it has to remain unchanged in order to boot. *A company is not permitted to disallow another company or individual from using proprietary code if that code is required for independant code to function.

Using images from other companies in your productions, however, is in no way covered under fair use. *It's the intellectual property of the company in question, and you have no legal right to use those images without permission.

Lets forget the legal battle sega would not doing any thing if you hosted isos lets face it. Some other people with hacked webrowsers as well no trouble from it from sega ether.

I think by now some one would of asked maybe even got sega's blessing on homebrew releases. How can any one say they respect sega with out ever asking permission from them to sell homebrew games and gain money from there hardware. I see no respect to them at all if you can explain using and selling software with out permission is *respect-full let me know. I dont know how you can explain it really. Respect to sega by gaining money *from there property with out permission is not respect-full thats why i gave up any idea of selling homebrew games.

I do respect sega i dont see how selling software and gaining money would be.


If you care to explain it to me i be very grateful.

MetaFox
October 3rd, 2004, 01:17
I think by now some one would of asked maybe even got sega's blessing on homebrew releases. How can any one say they respect sega with out ever asking permission from them to sell homebrew games and gain money from there hardware. I see no respect to them at all if you can explain using and selling software with out permission is respect-full let me know. the reason why I dont know how you can explain it really. Respect to sega by gaining money from there property with out permission is not respect-full thats why i gave up any idea of selling homebrew games.

I do respect sega i dont see how selling software and gaining money would be.

If you care to explain it to me i be very grateful.I'll be glad to. It seems that you are misinformed. The independant Dreamcast developers have been in contact with Sega since the beginning, and some of the employees who were in high standing at Sega have actually helped foster the community as we know it today. John Byrd, who was the head of Developer Tech Support of Sega at the time, provided alot of the technical information of the VMU to the independant community, and at one time, Sega was even offering official technicial support to unlicensed VMU developers. John Byrd also was closely involved in KOS, and urged Dan Potter to choose a BSD style license for KOS so that independant software created with the KallistiOS library did not clash with the official release license, and thus not only allowed unofficial independant software to be released commercially, but also opened up the possibility for independant software to be released officially.

Ian_micheal
October 3rd, 2004, 01:59
Thanks metafox.. *Yes i had been told other info from a few people. Would it not be possable to get a low budget lic officaly from sega for homebrew releases. Then trademarks could be used. Even if it was 50 cents per release to sega. Just sits un easy to me that they get nothing and did all the work.

VampiricS
October 3rd, 2004, 02:49
Well i was reading this thread today and i thought maybe people would want to see how a completely different cover could be, so i did a quick template:

here's the template:
http://img29.exs.cx/img29/5753/DC_Homebrew_cover.jpg

Here's an exemple using the neogeocd emu for that purpose:
http://img3.exs.cx/img3/7535/DC_Homebrew_cover2.jpg

Oh i added the DIRB thingy but i don't know if it was serious or not about it, so i just added it to see how it could look.

MetaFox
October 3rd, 2004, 02:53
Well i was reading this thread today and i thought maybe people would want to see how a completely different cover could be, so i did a quick template:

Oh i added the DIRB thingy but i don't know if it was serious or not about it, so i just added it to see how it could look.I like it. I also like the DIRB graphics. I was using one based on the ESRB graphics, that was top down, but I like the horizontal view better. :)

I do think, however, that we should start getting away from the term "homebrew" and start using independant Dreamcast software instead.

VampiricS
October 3rd, 2004, 03:03
Yeah,i used that term mostly because it made a cooler logo using the 'H'.

DCDayDreamer
October 3rd, 2004, 04:15
Firstly I think (going by the topic title) the couple of questions have been answered here (and a whole lot more) :).

Now what about making a topic, or even a seperate forum section from this. I mean a sort of comp where all can contribute in some way to produce a standard homebrew template for the scene's cover templates.
The good thing here is no coding is required, which opens up the chance for everyone to contribute in some way to the scene.

I like the template VampiricS made, let's use that as an example to get the 'artist in everyone' out in the open - just don't throw in my example above, it's too much like the commercial counterpart ;).

VampiricS
October 3rd, 2004, 04:25
Yeah, let's hope people will come up with something original! lol

Ian_micheal
October 3rd, 2004, 07:17
That would be nice but what use is it when boob covers has over 800 covers and never a warning.

DCDayDreamer
October 3rd, 2004, 08:07
I don't think anyone is worried about a warning, well I'm not anyway, it's just a case of another step for moving away from commercial to independant. Boob covers hasn't been updated in months, but I'm sure it'll still be there as a reminder of the old days.

As far as the use of it goes, we'll update all the covers at DC Evolution, the name says it all really - 'Evolution' ;).

Saoshyant
October 3rd, 2004, 20:57
So, is that idea of the standard logo that could feature in both homebrew software covers and screen titles or in only one of those acceptable? If so, when can one start? I wish to contribute on this part, as my coding skills are bad and I still lack a coders cable, but if this can help the community, the scene, Dreamcast I am for it.

Ian_micheal
October 4th, 2004, 00:20
DC Evolution did you not host a image with 15000 sid tunes all of them are under copyright btw. No change hosting that then hosting 10000 c64 games many of the tunes were under copyright still are by major software houses that hold the rights to them sid tune is not just music but part of the game. Even the word Dreamcast is a TM or trademark this is going to be slippery slope your heading down all bor mods need to be removed all divix themes and dream induce thems and a lot of SBI paks will all so need to be removed if were doing this to be totaly legal?. If you want to be clean there is a lot of cleaning to do site names to be changed.

Or is it just to create a new logo what im asking. If it's ok for boob covers to still be around i think i would still use there templates for covers.

Want to gadge what this is all about. As there is a big spider web of copy right images right throu the dc scene. Smash TV clone for example one of the best homebrews uses copyright like-ness and sprite ripps. List is large.

If this is not really about being clean and just a new image for homebrew ?

Yeah about what i want to know if i have to re do lots on my site to please people ?

MetaFox
October 4th, 2004, 01:28
Ian, I point you towards this:


This isn't a "change it or else" type of thing. We're not forcing people to not use copyrighted graphics. If they want to do that, we are not going to stop them (well, except for the contest of course. :P).

I just felt like there was a need for a change. We've been doing the same thing since 2000, and now that the community is getting larger, and more of the media's attention are on us (and it's only going to grow), we have to start the ball rolling for more a professional appearance.No one has to follow our example - but I hope that most people will.


Thanks metafox.. Yes i had been told other info from a few people. Would it not be possable to get a low budget lic officaly from sega for homebrew releases. Then trademarks could be used. Even if it was 50 cents per release to sega. Just sits un easy to me that they get nothing and did all the work.This is being worked on as we speak. We're already taking some steps toward some kind of solution about getting our commercial independant software officially licensed, so we can get Dreamcast games back into retail outlets.

I didn't want to say anything about this beyond the small comment I made in my Retrogamer Magazine interview, as it's too early to comment. However, seeing that you brought it up, I felt I had to spill the beans.

Nothing is guaranteed to come from this, but I'm personally keeping an optimistic outlook.

Ian_micheal
October 4th, 2004, 13:04
Good news Really Cant get a hold of the new version just now that would give a good feeling if it does happen. :)

wraggster
October 4th, 2004, 13:19
Can i just remind all that this is the competition forum so all off topic discussion should go elsewhere or im going to have to send the heavys in :P

seriously though not in this forum :)