PSP: Final Release for SnesTYL9x mooted (SNES emulator for PSP)

[tsurumaru]

Hi DCEMU crew,

Its with a mixture of sadness and respect that I write this report to you. For the benefit of those that haven't been keeping an eye on Yoyofr and Laxer3a's forums for SnesTYL9x, for some time now both Yoyofr and Laxer3a have been saying that they have less and less time to spend on the emulator. In fact they have mentioned that at some stage they would have to stop updating it and it looks like that point might be soon.

"Hi,

We are thinking about doing a "final release".
Yoyo does not have the net for a few weeks again... Need to wait a bit.

See you."

http://yoyofr.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=snes9xtyl&action=display&thread=1156247762

Laxer3a has explained that they have pretty much come as far as they can in terms of the speed of the emulator.

He does believe that if there was a major overhaul of the code to incorporate a dynamic recompiler/JIT then there would be the possibility of an approximate 10% increase in performance:

"Basically the SNES is kind of hard for dynarec because :
- Code can be automodifying (a code write itself).
In an architecture like MIPS or ARM cpu, you cant do that (because of the pipeline and code CACHE/ data CACHE seperated) So emulator writer goes really simpler.

--> One solution could be to emulate the code in RAM, and JIT the code in ROM.

- The Snes cpu is 1.7 Mhz only : I bet for the moment it takes around 100 Mhz of the main cpu to emulate it (even less probably). The JIT would probably increase the performance by 2 or 3 on the cpu emulation part... but how much TYL would increase in performance... I am not sure.

Most likely a 10% increase in performance globally ?
Most of the emu that benefit from JIT are the cpu consuming one : N64 -> 80 Mhz MIPS
GBA : 17 Mhz ARM cpu (ARM is annoying to emulate on MIPS : very costly)

This kind of technique would be usefull for the coprocessor as Tinnus said."

He also believes that if the graphics code was completely rewritten there would be a performance increase for the most popular roms:

"A full rewrite of the chipset (DSP / FX) emulation using VFPU for math stuff should increase the performance by quite a bit.

While the BEST/MOST popular games use it, it would require a LOT of dev to play 10 games.

That's why yoyo and I never went on this road...
Moreover, we had more priority at that time :-)"

http://yoyofr.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=snes9xtyl&action=display&thread=1144352305&page=3

But that the sheer time and effort involved in coding these outweigh any potential benefit and that neither he nor Yoyofr have the time to undertake this.

They have mentioned though that they would like to fix any current bugs (and there is a bug report thread going in the forum) so it is hoped that the "final release" if it is released will cover the known bugs in release 0.42.

As to my motivation in writing this piece, well Yoyofr and Laxer3a have never been ones to openly advertise the fact that they would consider help on the project but I'll quote Laxer3a:

"I am not sure neither yoyo and I want to go that far in tuning. If any good coder is interested to join in... May be worth sending a bottle to the sea actually. As the source matches the latest binary. "

So if there is someone out there that would consider the above coding rewrites as a challenge they'd like to take on...... ;)

http://yoyofr.proboards44.com

[jamesmc3stripe]

eh... i think this has reached its peek anyway...but as my mother allways said there is allways room for improvement, could someone not make the GBA emu play snes games, cause they can play snes games on the GBA, just an idea... its just too get rid of the parts of the screen tht move slower than the other parts on this emu... dont get me wrong its great i use it all the time.

[The_Ultimate_Eggman]

like you said has the code been optomised that much in this release ALL games even some of the more tricky mode 7 ones are now at full speed ?>This will be fantastic if they are.

[Airdevil]

first PSmonkey than these 2? :( we are losing developers :(

[PSPKOR]

Yeah, this is a good enough emulator as it is i would say. they have been working on it ever since i got into PSP hombrew and it does have multiplayer, m.e. and loads more.
Is it just me or is this a bad day end of PSmonkey and SnesTYL9x.:( :(

[NJisMYhome]

i hope chrono trigger works full speed!!!!!!!!

[S34MU5]

first PSmonkey than these 2? :( we are losing developers :(
hopefully they will have more apps
coz this one is amzin and has reached its peak

[Basil Zero]

This is looking bad for the homebrew scene...losing three great developers....

[cypressice]

im sorry to see this happen. hopefully someone will pick up on this project. snestyl9x me is the reason i took the huge first day risk of downgrading from my 2.6. i just wanna say thanx for what you've done so far and hopefully they will fix the no-sound after state load issue.

thanx again for everything

[kschewe]

hopefully someone continues on with this emulator or makes a new one. Some of the bigger roms are difficult to play. Anyone try star ocean, english translation one? I wanted to play but it was real slow. Maybe one day/

[muffinman]

chrono trigger did work full speed from v 0.2 i believe i remember i completed it again on it. love that game :)

[hack.fool]

im sorry to see this happen. hopefully someone will pick up on this project. snestyl9x me is the reason i took the huge first day risk of downgrading from my 2.6. i just wanna say thanx for what you've done so far and hopefully they will fix the no-sound after state load issue.

thanx again for everything

quote
I bought a psp 50% for snes games!!!!:D ..what else to ask for!!
thanx again to this 2 great coders...

[Zombo]

Damn...just damn,this isn't right! >_<

[Lodis]

I don't see it as losing 2 great dev's, they simply do not have enough time to continue updating this emulator.

This emulator is great as it is and don't forget that it is a port, when considering that fact, the speed is amasing.

There are many great coders in the Psp scene but many people seem to only notiice the few well known ones but we should all know better than that.

Look at the GBA emulator coder who came from nowhere, he was probably around but unnoticed. I wouldn't worry, they may come back when / if they have the time but if they don't, someone else will most likely continue this project but as it is, I am extremely satisfied with it in its current state.

[Mr. Shizzy]

Well I always like to see things improved. And 0.42 had some wierd sound issues w/ some games. What a shame. Hopefully someone picks up on this.

[The_Ultimate_Eggman]

Well I always like to see things improved. And 0.42 had some wierd sound issues w/ some games. What a shame. Hopefully someone picks up on this.
Yeah like when you saved a game state and reloaded it the sounfd was always screwed up.Hopefully someone will pick up this brightly burning torch would be a crying shame if they didnt so close yet so far :).

[gslop]

This is my favorite emu!:(

[snkrock25]

I am very greatful to the 2 wonderful developers who worked on this project so faithfully ;) .

My vote goes to zx-81 to pick up this project :) .

[Video_freak]

This is my favorite emulator too, gslop. The only thing I saw wrong with it was that bug that stopped sound when you loaded a savestate...

[M!ckeY]

this is the best snes emu ever!!!:)

[Video_freak]

this is the best snes emu ever!!!:)
Matched by none! :D

[jaydoo]

Great emu, has provided me with lots of fun, thanks.

Another vote for zx-81 picking up the reigns.

[Tinnus]

He also believes that if the graphics code was completely rewritten there would be a performance increase for the most popular roms:

"A full rewrite of the chipset (DSP / FX) emulation using VFPU for math stuff should increase the performance by quite a bit.

While the BEST/MOST popular games use it, it would require a LOT of dev to play 10 games.

That's why yoyo and I never went on this road...
Moreover, we had more priority at that time :-)"
That was a misinterpretation.

DSP / FX / co-processors are NOT the same as "graphics code". This refers to the special co-processors (DSP1, DSP2, Super FX, etc) that were used in games like Yoshi's Island and Mario RPG.

Anyway, Let it be known that I took a look at the code for these, but...

1) Not ALL co-processors can be sped this way. For example, the Super FX chip (IIRC) is just a second CPU like the original SNES one. In that case, only a Dynarec/JIT would help.

2) One or two COULD indeed be sped up a lot. For example, one of them (used in 3D games) does matrix multiplications. But it would be needed to rewrite the ENTIRE chip emulator to get optimal speedups, and unfortunately I don't like any of the affected games enough to spend the time on it :D

Really, SnesTYL is already VERY, and I do mean VERY fast. It's easier for users to live with frameskip 1 than for a developer to spend his life squeezing minor speedups from the emulator.

[BL4Z3D247]

I am very greatful to the 2 wonderful developers who worked on this project so faithfully ;) .

My vote goes to zx-81 to pick up this project :) .
u took the words right out of my mouth...:p

[Veskgar]

Snes9xTYL 0.2c about a year ago is what got me hooked to the PSP homebrew scene. I was stupid and upgraded my PSP to 2.0 last summer for the web browser. Thank the heavens for MPH 2.0 -> 1.50 downgrader.

Now it has progressed to the amazing Snes9xTYL 0.4.2 ME. If they plan to release another "bug-fix" to this already impressive EMU it would be great.

It is impressive that this EMU is so advanced being a port. I wonder if there are any secret projects to create a perfect SNES EMU from scratch with a dynarec/JIT. If not, it would be nice if the latest source code could be released and other coders could continue to improve this great work.

Thanks for everything TYL team!

[Tinnus]

The latest source code is released already...

[tsurumaru]

That was a misinterpretation.

DSP / FX / co-processors are NOT the same as "graphics code". This refers to the special co-processors (DSP1, DSP2, Super FX, etc) that were used in games like Yoshi's Island and Mario RPG.

Anyway, Let it be known that I took a look at the code for these, but...

1) Not ALL co-processors can be sped this way. For example, the Super FX chip (IIRC) is just a second CPU like the original SNES one. In that case, only a Dynarec/JIT would help.

2) One or two COULD indeed be sped up a lot. For example, one of them (used in 3D games) does matrix multiplications. But it would be needed to rewrite the ENTIRE chip emulator to get optimal speedups, and unfortunately I don't like any of the affected games enough to spend the time on it :D

Really, SnesTYL is already VERY, and I do mean VERY fast. It's easier for users to live with frameskip 1 than for a developer to spend his life squeezing minor speedups from the emulator.

Yeah apologies Tinnus I was trying to think of a way to simplify the coprocessor rewrite into something a lay person could relate to but with hindsight "Graphics code" probably wasn't the best choice of phrase. Sorry if this caused any grief.

[Tinnus]

Sometimes it's better to keep it as it was than try to "simplify" when you are not sure what it means :)

Just be careful when doing stuff like that, ie: taking scattered statements and turning it into a story. It's not that in this case it's not a "truth", but your text has a lot of "dangerous" areas (almost enabling wrong interpretation) and this one that is indeed wrong :)

Sorry if I sound rude or anything, the idea is just to give you a hint for when you quote other people or you might end up getting into trouble for putting words into someone else's mouth :)

[tsurumaru]

Sometimes it's better to keep it as it was than try to "simplify" when you are not sure what it means :)

Just be careful when doing stuff like that, ie: taking scattered statements and turning it into a story. It's not that in this case it's not a "truth", but your text has a lot of "dangerous" areas (almost enabling wrong interpretation) and this one that is indeed wrong :)

Sorry if I sound rude or anything, the idea is just to give you a hint for when you quote other people or you might end up getting into trouble for putting words into someone else's mouth :)

Thanks, I understand your point, in all fairness however I provided the whole quotation that my statement referred to following it so this should have negated any inaccuracies on my behalf. (as you have rightly picked up on :) )

I had three objectives in writing the piece:

1. To let people know that a "Final release" was being considered by Laxer3a and Yoyofr.
2. To summarise what Laxer3a thought might still be possible in terms of updating the emulator (but probably wouldn't be undertaken by Yoyofr or Laxer3a).
3. To publicise the fact that Laxer3a and Yoyofr would welcome an experienced coder to continue work on the emulator (I think this is mentioned in two or three seperate threads in the TYL forums).

I took direct quotes from the TYL forums to summarise what the current situation is and gave sources for all of them, they are all related even if they do not appear in the same thread or immediate time frame, and sum up what has happened since 0.4.2's release.

I have to admit that reading QJ's rewrite of this article does make it sound like an official anouncement of Yoyofr's and Laxer3a's retirement has been made or something! I definitely didn't want that and apologise if its caused any offence.

Kind regards.

[Veskgar]

Sooooo the TYL team is NOT passing the torch and ending work on this EMU? Now I'm confused ?!?!?!

[gimpyjr]

That was a misinterpretation.

DSP / FX / co-processors are NOT the same as "graphics code". This refers to the special co-processors (DSP1, DSP2, Super FX, etc) that were used in games like Yoshi's Island and Mario RPG.

Anyway, Let it be known that I took a look at the code for these, but...

1) Not ALL co-processors can be sped this way. For example, the Super FX chip (IIRC) is just a second CPU like the original SNES one. In that case, only a Dynarec/JIT would help.

2) One or two COULD indeed be sped up a lot. For example, one of them (used in 3D games) does matrix multiplications. But it would be needed to rewrite the ENTIRE chip emulator to get optimal speedups, and unfortunately I don't like any of the affected games enough to spend the time on it :D

Really, SnesTYL is already VERY, and I do mean VERY fast. It's easier for users to live with frameskip 1 than for a developer to spend his life squeezing minor speedups from the emulator.


come on bro what about starfox? That is the one game I wanted to see full speed and fullscreen :-(

[Basil Zero]

so when's the release?

[Tinnus]

No one ever said anything about a release, laxer3a only said they will probably do a final release SOMETIME.

[razorak]

looking forward to it at any rate, it's good enough for me at its current stage though =)

[Alucard]

Yeah, and all it said is that Yoyo will be without the internet for a couple of weeks, not big deals.

In either case, whatever happens, I happy they helped out the PSP sceen.

[Veskgar]

Its ok. the TYL team has always had a lot of time between releases. It may seem that they have given up or are doing very little but YoYoFr doesn't release crap. When an update to TYL is made, its usually big. And if you noticed with the last release (0.4) updates came very quckly after bugs were found and we soon had 0.4.2.

I highly anticipate any and all future releases of Snes9xTYL.

[mr_nick666]

first PSmonkey than these 2? :( we are losing developers :(

They'll be gone but not forgotten... :rolleyes: Im gratefull for everything they've done so far and hope that maybe there will be more in the future... :o (Who knows what can happen!!) :p

[Baboon]

To me this emulator is pretty much perfect as it is anyway. :)

[scarph]

great emu, great great

[QueadlunnRau]

I heard a rumor that 4.3 is out? But cannot find a link anywhere. Is that version out?

[Tinnus]

If it's not reported in the official forum and website, then no.

edit: forgot to say I learned a little more about the PSP VFPU and the DSP emulation code. I might give it a shot. I'll keep people updated :)