Religion

[shadowprophet]

religion, lets face it,s a topic nobody ever wants to talk about, And not because people aren't interested in the subject, heck just about everyone that has strong beliefs wants to share them, that's not what im asking here.

the fact of the matter is, religion is such a fragile topic that no one can ever talk about it amidst people without stepping on someone else's toes.


Why do you suppose that is ? could it be SATAN!! *pauses for dramatic effect, lol, kidding im only kidding, lol

Personally, my beliefs are different, even though the members of my established church, would pick my opinions apart and nag and nag and tell me i was going to hell until i told them something different,

Still I believe, that from the very first time we draw breath, we are free to decide what we want to do with our lives. The bible even makes this clear.. we are free to decide weather we accept it or not.

So i don't spend a lot of time trying persuade others to follow my beliefs. I believe there choice is as much within there right as I was to my own.

Still. I hold reservations against (people who believe in nothing )~ If a person worships a baked potato,or satan, or the silver moon dragon for that matter, Its fine with me, it was there choice.

Noo.. Its those people who have no beliefs what so ever, I have reservations about. people who believe in the here and now only. people that believe there is nothing to the universe beyond what we can see.. Those people ..

people who have no moral guidance on any level, that have no set of rules to follow through life on what's acceptable or not, to be honest. I wouldn't feel comfortable around someone who doesn't believe there are consequences to there own actions.. people like that strike me as dangerous.
What do you guys think ?

And no this is not aimed at athiests, ( for the record ) even athiests have been proven to be of strong mind and moral.. I suppose im aiming this as a specific type of person, rather..

[Tetris999]

I agree People are very very VERY touchy about this topic and if you say a word thats a little off they go nutty on you, im going not to say anything about this topic, ill probably read. Im just saying this topic is going to get a little messy y'know

[TacticalBread]

Religon is a topic I usually don't bring up with friends, as it is a very touchy topic. I've lost friends because they became religious, and I remain not religious.

[opiate81]

mmm yes tough subject
Im pretty well dead opposite though :p
to quote my self from an editorial I wrote a few months back :p

"Only by letting go of Santa-gods hand can you begin to develop a morality based on human
compassion and understanding. only when you set aside the fear of a supernatural spanking
can you begin to stand up and become a fully realized, adult human being. Human beings
must be good to each other because humanity is all there is."

It scares me that some people need to be told how to be a nice person

my parents taught me the basics (both non religious) and as I got older I picked up the rest.
I obey the laws of man (most of em anyway).
I`ll hedge my bets.. I wont deny the holy spirit (the only sin the equals no forgiveness) and when I die if there is some white bearded uber daddy looking sternly at me.. then I`ll apologise to him (and also give him a few hints on how he could run the place better) then jump in line to worship someone for eternity!

[chrono75]

Hehe, I believe there is a higher power, but no one and only God. To beleive that (this is my belief,) there is a single being creating, watching and controlling all is small minded.
Expect Bigmace to make an appearance here soon.

[ICE]

for me the presence of a god is clear. i dont try and do good for fear of punishment i do it for fear of letting him down. he made us with the free will to choice good or evil even though he didnt have to. its the least we can do to be good since a certain someone did die for me and you individually... i am a christian but i am not a baptist or a Methodist or any other ist. there is NO denomination that is wholly correct and therefore i am not a part of any of them officially.

[shadowprophet]

for me the presence of a god is clear. i dont try and do good for fear of punishment i do it for fear of letting him down. he made us with the free will to choice good or evil even though he didnt have to. its the least we can do to be good since a certain someone did die for me and you individually... i am a christian but i am not a baptist or a Methodist or any other ist. there is NO denomination that is wholly correct and therefore i am not a part of any of them officially.

I like this guys stance on the issue :thumbup:

[ICE]

oh my lord!!! finally someone who will openly agree with me!!!

[shadowprophet]

oh my lord!!! finally someone who will openly agree with me!!!

In your short paragraph, you said everything I wanted to say in my entire post, and a few things I wanted to but didnt. :thumbup:

*Here have a box of cookies bro, youve won them all :thumbup:

[Stump]

does someone here, believe in God??

[JKKDARK]

does someone here, believe in God??

I wonder who is god..

[Accordion]

I wonder who is god..

look no further...

anyway.
everyone is religious, you may not believe it but it is true, and [unfortunately?] we are all christian. i wont go into details here, but...look around you

we need religion for us to exist, without religion society can not progress, and evolve. the population [as one entity] needs a reason, a goal, and an end. without that, we [the single entity] cannot function together or apart.
-do not misunderstand, i am not saying such a path is 'wrong'

[Stump]

that's untrue.
not all are christian people.
and I disagree with you,

[Stump]

I wonder who is god..

do you believe in somethin?

[Accordion]

that's untrue.
not all are christian people.
and I disagree with you,

your wrong, and you shouldnt double post

if your on the computer, then some part of your life is christian...fact

[Stump]

well, i am a christian, but you cant say all is christian people. that's wrong,!

yeh, sorry

[dejkirkby]

we are all christian.

A tad offensive there bro, I doubt the followers of othe religions will like being lumped into one super-religion.
My two cents,
I was a non-practising Protestant, my children are raised as Catholic (don't ask, loooong story) and go/went to Catholic schools. In the UK, it's expected that if your children go to a Catholic school, that you attend a Catholic Church quite regularly.
Now being Protestant, my views were a little biased against Catholism, but after many, many years of sitting in the pews and watching people worship, something dawned on me.
It not the God being worshipped that is the major factor. It is that people have faith. A faith in something. As SP said, it could be anything. But the fact that people have someone or something to turn to for moral and emotional guidance.
Believe in whatever you want to believe in.
Just Believe.
Class dismissed. jk.

[JKKDARK]

do you believe in somethin?

some friends, family and other people

[Accordion]

A tad offensive there bro, I doubt the followers of othe religions will like being lumped into one super-religion.
.

think bigger, im not concerning individual beliefs at all, i think i worded my comment in the best way, individuality is of no importance

[Stump]

@JJKDARK

MAN! you know what I mean.

@dejkirby

yeah, your right.
but agree with me, not all people are christian :!:

[dejkirkby]

@dejkirby

yeah, your right.
but agree with me, not all people are christian :!:

I never said all people are Christian. I'm just saying that the majority of people believe in something. These beliefs are what helps drive them spiritually and morally.

@accordian boy. Not to pick an argument or anything, but I really can't get my head around how you come to your conclusion. Could you please explain how all people are Christian?

[Stump]

I didn't say, that you've said all people were christian.

i just wanted you to agree with me, that accordianboy is not right ;)

[Accordion]

I didn't say, that you've said all people were christian.

i just wanted you to agree with me, that accordianboy is not right ;)

impossible, but i wont make you understand

[Stump]

hah! lol,

i do understand.. you are the one who misunderstand that not all people are christian.

do you have an argument, for that all people is christian?

[dejkirkby]

Chris‧tian  /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
–noun
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
11. a male given name.

[Stump]

where did you find those faqts??

[Accordion]

not "all people" but "people" as one entity...

if you dont understand, then i am not going to try and undo a whole life of social conditioning and rework your mind...

[dejkirkby]

Seriously, it would be a bit obtuse to state something and not at least explain it when challenged. People can get offended when patronised.
You say we don't understand, then help us to by explaining your comment.

[Accordion]

everything around us is governed by christian society,
the laws, the date, the road names, the companies, the tv, the internet etc. and so, we are in someways[most] christian as a whole.

[dejkirkby]

everything around us is governed by christian society,
the laws, the date, the road names, the companies, the tv, the internet etc. and so, we are in someways[most] christian as a whole.
Now I understand your point. But there are glaring holes in your point.
You are looking at this from a British City. If you went to ,say, India, which is mainly Hindu. you would notice that all the things you mention are biased towards a Hindu society.
The way things are done in Britain, doesn't necessarily translate to the rest of the world.
All in all, I sort of agree with you to a point. IN BRITAIN, the society CAN be PERCIEVED to be a Christian society.
But, that isn't to say that Britain, or in fact the World is wholly a Christian society. It is a plethora of ideas and faiths and that's what makes it interesting.

Lancashire Rules!!

[Accordion]

think bigger, where is the control...

[dejkirkby]

Easy there Mr. Gibson. This ain't Conspiracy Theory. I feel let down a little now. I have hoping for a well-balanced argument/discussion, but with one sentence it comes crashing down and turns into farce.

[bullhead]

Accordian boy! Not like that! No! No! I know what you mean, but you can't say that. Well, yes you can.

You are still my favourite member, but am afraid to say I agree with you on this.

bull, x.

[Accordion]

haha, oh dear.

im not even close to a conspiracy theory, read all my posts...
society is a single mass, which is all consuming...there is no room for the individual
i also stated i dont believe such a way of life is wrong
—again, all i can say is think bigger, you cannot aspire to be individual, if you know not of your alternative

[bullhead]

You have me in stitches man! awwwww! haha! Thanks, I am feeling cheery now.

bull, x.

[C0R3F1GHT3R]

personally idc about religion, because since childhood my grandmother tried to force religion on me ie christian camps and church crap bible study. I know almost everything about the bible and for that reason i can back up the reason of why i dont believe in. Now i'
m not antichrist I'm a agnostic, but at the same time i dont believe in what ppl call a "god". I believe in the "creator". Hes not an almighty being he just is the designer of everything and has no control on our lives i also dont believe in miracles because i think that if everything were studied very closely that there would be only signs of randomization and the perfect timing sequence. So yea i also dont mind what people believe in as long as they dont try to force it upon me, and thats when i get really pissed and dissect their religion and stuff to why its retarded and false in ways so yea. I like to also mainly stay off the topic.

[Accordion]

it isnt that funny...is it?

unfortunately i have worded my reply in such a way i propose a very uncomfortable paradox. but perhaps this perception is merely from 'our' own social conditioning, and forced perspectives..?

[bullhead]

Maybe I read into it too much.

[Accordion]

maybe not...

[bullhead]

Yeah probably not, i'm just in a bit of a mood, a good one. Well, go me!

bull

[Smurph]

I think I'll let these motivational posters do the talking for me:

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7066/1152824418432dv0.jpg
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9602/1152831278081rt1.jpg

[ExcruciationX]

I think I'll let these motivational posters do the talking for me:

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7066/1152824418432dv0.jpg
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9602/1152831278081rt1.jpg
LOL!!! :rofl: That was funny! :thumbup:

I'm not jumping in to a religous discussion again. I'm Athiest, and I'll just leave you with that.

[C0R3F1GHT3R]

Smurphs first picture reminded of a sick but true fact about beliefs in american society. More kids now know Ronald McDonald then they do Jesus.

[Smurph]

Smurphs first picture reminded of a sick but true fact about beliefs in american society. More kids now know Ronald McDonald then they do Jesus.

I think you missed the point.

[ExcruciationX]

Smurphs first picture reminded of a sick but true fact about beliefs in american society. More kids now know Ronald McDonald then they do Jesus.

No, that's not what it means. It went completely over your head. Who cares if kids don't know who Jesus is?

It means all religions worship a clown. I'm sure some of you know what I think of this, so I'm staying neutral.

[shadowprophet]

No, that's not what it means. It went completely over your head. Who cares if kids don't know who Jesus is?

It means all religions worship a clown. I'm sure some of you know what I think of this, so I'm staying neutral.

now we are getting into conceptual art,. awesome,

What does this one mean?:thumbup:

At first I thought maybe it was the immoratl eye of God collpasing into an infinit sea of cascading warm embrace,

Then I thought maybe its just some spilled cofee :rofl:



* ahh preception is everything when it comes to art I suppose :)

[dejkirkby]

It kinda looks like a warped MK dragon.

[shadowprophet]

It kinda looks like a warped MK dragon.

I never saw that untill you mentioned it,
just another example of perceptions and how it effects how we appricate things :cool:

[Accordion]

i just see a ink blot, and i am doing a fine art degree...

annyway!
dont give up on me....get a dictionary

[bullhead]

Wow, it's really erotic!

bull

[jman420]

Still. I hold reservations against (people who believe in nothing )~ If a person worships a baked potato,or satan, or the silver moon dragon for that matter, Its fine with me, it was there choice.

Noo.. Its those people who have no beliefs what so ever, I have reservations about. people who believe in the here and now only. people that believe there is nothing to the universe beyond what we can see.. Those people ..

people who have no moral guidance on any level, that have no set of rules to follow through life on what's acceptable or not, to be honest. I wouldn't feel comfortable around someone who doesn't believe there are consequences to there own actions.. people like that strike me as dangerous.
What do you guys think ?

And no this is not aimed at athiests, ( for the record ) even athiests have been proven to be of strong mind and moral.. I suppose im aiming this as a specific type of person, rather..

wow, dude, I cannot believe that you started a thread based on religion...

But, I have come to spread my opinion, as that is what the forums are for lol...

be fore-warned, its a long ass post...

and I have attached my theories on the arguements against (and for) the existance of god as a txt file


now, you say that people with no beliefs in God are immoral? I think that you need to take a Philosophy class here dude, because I dont think that your theory matches up...

people that don't believe in God, don't for so many reasons, most christians cant even immagine. at the same time, people that belive in god, see from one perspective.. if you consider the reasons from the non-beleiving point of view, why is it that you call those people "immoral"??

you believe that someone that doesent believe in God has no moral guidence? no rules through life?? I declaire BS on that...

its the ethics of the world man, there are a lot of different theories for ethics, but only 1 is accualy based on religion..

even after that, you have to realize that the ethics based on religion is flawed, it has been changed so many times, even just in the last 100 years...
Consider Marijuana, this "Herb" was refered to several times in the bible, however... has recently been removed due to other people modifying the bible.

that doesn't mean that people that choose to say that the bible is just another book, are immoral... it means that they realize that it truly is just another book..

I would realy enjoy changing someone's mind on here about this little suggestion that all athiests are immoral (whether or not you said thats what you mean, thats what it ment)

and why would you not feal comfortable around someone that didn't believe the same thing as you?!? dont you think that is just a little wrong?

just check this option out...

where I live we have gangs, not many, but they do exist.. they will claim to be before God, and expect to go to heaven.. they are always at church on sundays.. but I have been robbed by them, and beaten up in my local park by them... now, explain to me how an athiest would do that??

first off, athiests are the group of humans that are smart enough to realize that the wool that has been pulled over their eye's is not true.. no matter what you may think, its got to do with realization.. not faith, not expectation, not because they want to be different..

its because they realize that there is no God, they realize that there is no reason for God to exist, they realize that all evedence points twards the non-existance of God..

most of the time now-a-days, you see pepole becoming religious after the age of 70... anyone know why???



its because there is an ego boosting thing now telling you that your life after you die is going to be better..

but that leads me anyway to ask the question... why would an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being force his "creation" through this 80-100 year test...

it seems assinine to think that you will have a better life when you die, if you do all this stuff...

and at the same time, it seems evil that people will look down on athiests, as they will be going to hell... I see that all the time, I see christians telling others that they will be going to hell, "but I will be going to heaven"


but this is thhe group of people you would trust more then the intellegent athiest??


that is about all I have to say in this post, but if someone wants to argue on any of my theories, I will be back lol...

And also I am going to post my first real philosophy paper based on the information supporting and arguing against the existance of God. I think its good, someone read it lol...

[shadowprophet]

wow, dude, I cannot believe that you started a thread based on religion...

But, I have come to spread my opinion, as that is what the forums are for lol...

be fore-warned, its a long ass post...

and I have attached my theories on the arguements against (and for) the existance of god as a txt file


now, you say that people with no beliefs in God are immoral? I think that you need to take a Philosophy class here dude, because I dont think that your theory matches up...

people that don't believe in God, don't for so many reasons, most christians cant even immagine. at the same time, people that belive in god, see from one perspective.. if you consider the reasons from the non-beleiving point of view, why is it that you call those people "immoral"??

you believe that someone that doesent believe in God has no moral guidence? no rules through life?? I declaire BS on that...

its the ethics of the world man, there are a lot of different theories for ethics, but only 1 is accualy based on religion..

even after that, you have to realize that the ethics based on religion is flawed, it has been changed so many times, even just in the last 100 years...
Consider Marijuana, this "Herb" was refered to several times in the bible, however... has recently been removed due to other people modifying the bible.

that doesn't mean that people that choose to say that the bible is just another book, are immoral... it means that they realize that it truly is just another book..

I would realy enjoy changing someone's mind on here about this little suggestion that all athiests are immoral (whether or not you said thats what you mean, thats what it ment)

and why would you not feal comfortable around someone that didn't believe the same thing as you?!? dont you think that is just a little wrong?

just check this option out...

where I live we have gangs, not many, but they do exist.. they will claim to be before God, and expect to go to heaven.. they are always at church on sundays.. but I have been robbed by them, and beaten up in my local park by them... now, explain to me how an athiest would do that??

first off, athiests are the group of humans that are smart enough to realize that the wool that has been pulled over their eye's is not true.. no matter what you may think, its got to do with realization.. not faith, not expectation, not because they want to be different..

its because they realize that there is no God, they realize that there is no reason for God to exist, they realize that all evedence points twards the non-existance of God..

most of the time now-a-days, you see pepole becoming religious after the age of 70... anyone know why???



its because there is an ego boosting thing now telling you that your life after you die is going to be better..

but that leads me anyway to ask the question... why would an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being force his "creation" through this 80-100 year test...

it seems assinine to think that you will have a better life when you die, if you do all this stuff...

and at the same time, it seems evil that people will look down on athiests, as they will be going to hell... I see that all the time, I see christians telling others that they will be going to hell, "but I will be going to heaven"


but this is thhe group of people you would trust more then the intellegent athiest??


that is about all I have to say in this post, but if someone wants to argue on any of my theories, I will be back lol...

And also I am going to post my first real philosophy paper based on the information supporting and arguing against the existance of God. I think its good, someone read it lol...

I think at some point, you missed my point, its Not about God, its about the generalization of haveing strong beliefes ,that build strong character, If somone believed strongly enough in in a rubber band to give them hope and faith, to give them some sort of deeper meaning to life then just the every day grind, im fine with that, But my point was almost completely missed, here, yes , yes I do believe in God, but thats only a personal view.

My point Goes on to something that really wasnt conveyed properly in my first post. i believe, that unless someone has found something to give them hope in existance beyond death, they lead a shallow and empty life :( devoid of the happyness that hope, even if it was false hope, can give one in an otherwise hopless situation that is beyond our controll, my underline meaning behind the entire first post, was the natural human fear of death and the ways people cope with it.
death is an issue that for lack of proper words, terrifies me. It's a subjet I ponder more then any healthy person should, concidering the hold that the fear of it has over me.

Because if you put real thought into it bro, and i can see you have, religion, all religion. is little more then then a diversion to calm society of there own fear of death. ( thats not to say i dont hold true to my own beliefs~ I believe them fully. But come on, at the same time im not gullible and weak minded. there may be truth to some If not all religion, over time, differnt people with different views,,different launguages and different cultures, took religion in under there own perceptions, surely only a fool would expect the truth to be the same for everyone, everywhere in every culture.

there bro, does that clear things up any :cool:

@ accordian boy,
normaly bro, I woudlnt stop to pick back at people that are spelling nazis however , I Had to in this case (accordion boy, i couldnt pass up the temptation), * Should i pick you up a dictionary too while im out lol :P

By the way, you should pm, kaiser, it wouldnt take him a split seconed to fix that for you :)

[Accordion]

@ accordian boy,
normaly bro, I woudlnt stop to pick back at people that are spelling nazis however , I Had to in this case (accordion boy, i couldnt pass up the temptation), * Should i pick you up a dictionary too while im out lol :P

By the way, you should pm, kaiser, it wouldnt take him a split seconed to fix that for you :)
(http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/member.php?u=21235)

that comment was a reaction to a misinterpretation of my previous posts, and someone thinking i was talking of conspiracy...it seems my meaning was not conveyed in the best way, or that it simply cannot be conveyed in any better way at my current understanding of 'my' theory....which is a shame.

as to the spelling of accordion...well ive become somewhat attatched to the mistake[which i realised the day after i made the account], although perhaps it wouldnt hurt...hmm.

and as further comment... perhaps self importance is the greatest disease of them all.

[shadowprophet]

that comment was a reaction to a misinterpretation of my previous posts, and someone thinking i was talking of conspiracy...it seems my meaning was not conveyed in the best way, or that it simply cannot be conveyed in any better way at my current understanding of 'my' theory....which is a shame.

as to the spelling of accordion...well ive become somewhat attatched to the mistake[which i realised the day after i made the account], although perhaps it wouldnt hurt...hmm.

and as further theory... perhaps self importance is the greatest disease of them all.

I was just razzing ya anyway bro :D

* I cant wait for jmans reply, hes seems quite the interesting conversationelest.

[Accordion]

Because if you put real thought into it bro, and i can see you have, religion, all religion. is little more then then a diversion to calm society of there own fear of death. ( thats not to say i dont hold true to my own beliefs~ I believe them fully. But come on, at the same time im not gullible and weak minded. there may be truth to some If not all religion, over time, differnt people with different views,,different launguages and different cultures, took religion in under there own perceptions, surely only a fool would expect the truth to be the same for everyone, everywhere in every culture.


hmmm, by my theory on society as one being, then you are right; religion is a diversion, but not to calm society, but to calm and restrain the people. in my reasoning 'society' is in many ways everything, the force which binds us together. perhaps 'society' is 'god'. however not the creator, atleast not the original. though how would we know.
i suppose our combined [sub]consciousness become a separate entity from the people, and this entity is what controls us. canabilism at its most extravagant!

[shadowprophet]

hmmm, by my theory on society as one being, then you are right; religion is a diversion, but not to calm society, but to calm and restrain the people. in my reasoning 'society' is in many ways everything, the force which binds us together. perhaps 'society' is 'god'. however not the creator, atleast not the original. though how would we know.
i suppose our combined [sub]consciousness become a separate entity from the people, and this entity is what controls us. canabilism at its most extravagant!

While every word you said the above post, is prefectly logical. and I could agree to it. to do so would place a person of my beliefs in dire strights.

You see religion isnt just a form of conditioning, its like you mentiond above it restrains me from agreeing that society could indeed be the force ( God)
and only permits me with few options, I can dissagree, or acording to my own conditioned beliefs agree and not only be wrong , but have sinned aswell, religion get awfully complicated on touchy issues like that.

however to add to that confusion, In the bible it sais what is true on earth shall be made true in heaven, what that means is of you have unfinished buisness, like debts you owe or people you offended and never set things right. those offences and offences like it will still be held accountible to you when you stand before judgment.

However, one could also precive that as,

*example, lets assume for one moment hitler had won world war two, history would have painted a different picture of the man, instead of being a monster, he woudl have been a hero and saviour.....

If people precived him as a hero and a saviour, then must God also precive him that way?

Food for thought.

your point on social views was porweful stuff.

seriously something to think about.

[BlackJack23]

I strongly recommend a book to all those interested in the 'God question'. Its called The God Delusion

Its taken from the completely atheist view of none other than Richard Dawkins. It is purely philosophical and is a great read. Its also a nice change from all that senseless creationist blabber. Although I can say with certainty that I do not agree with Dawkins on the most fundamental principles of God, I found his views incredibly interesting. He discusses the existence(non-existence) of God in depth and goes on to tackle philosophical brain candy like morality without God. It also shines some light on the many hypocrisies of religion itself, pointing out the endless flaws and contradictions within The Holy Bible.

Personally, I believe in a higher entity. Also I believe that all the holy scriptures in existence today are extreme distortions of the truth. I prefer to think of such texts as life guides rather than to take them literally. Therefore I can say I am spiritual but not religious.

I believe that all those claiming to be part of 'religions' are deeply selfish and many are only interested in self-preservation. I find modern religions themselves perversely selfish as they try and control the path to spiritual enlightenment. They scare people into adopting their belief systems with threats of eternal pain and tempt them with promises of eternal happiness. They are constantly in dispute with each other over the minor and ultimately irrelevant details of God and all the time are preventing each other of gaining a better understanding of the universe. I ask you this: How could our creator, the one who breathed life into us and indeed the entire universe even think of inflicting eternal pain on his creations? Hell is a sick lie created by those who would have you adopt their twisted interpretation of God.

[Accordion]

i started this post hoping to explain that shadowprophet is still living within the realms of my theory...not that he should feel he needs to, or that i need him to...but as merely a way of expanding my theory to a more satisfying level in my own understanding of it. however it seems in my youth i am not capaple of comprehending the ideas which flow through me at such speed into a recognisable form. all i can do for now is assert that i dont believe that religion is 'wrong', or indeed the social condition we follow...and so, i regret to say; i will postpone my full reply until i am able. if ever such a time comes.

as to the matter of Dawkins, although i agree wholly to the meme theory [ my own being a direct expansion of such] i dont believe dawkins as the source of such ideas and perhaps never will. for me Dawkins has always emitted a rather bitter aspiration for popularity and therefore becomes void as he aspires for his self importance, and naively contradicts his own theories on religion.

[souLLy]

I strongly recommend a book to all those interested in the 'God question'. Its called The God Delusion

I read it and thought it was poor actually, it's all very one-sided and angry, without any acceptance that religion does do some good in the world. Suggesting that stuff going on in Ireland is purely a religious argument and taking out the religion would solve all of the problems there (couldn't be any politics then obviously) and things like religious people being charitable and doing good deeds doesn't seem possible in his mind.

[Accordion]

I read it and thought it was poor actually, it's all very one-sided and angry, without any acceptance that religion does do some good in the world. Suggesting that stuff going on in Ireland is purely a religious argument and taking out the religion would solve all of the problems there (couldn't be any politics then obviously) and things like religious people being charitable and doing good deeds doesn't seem possible in his mind.

agreed, see above

[souLLy]

agreed, see above

ahhh heh, I'm doing my best to stay out of this thread, I'll start going off and posting long rants and nobody wants to read those :p

[Accordion]

i wouldnt mind

[opiate81]

I like some of Richard Dawkins` views.. I think he is a smart man.. but he`s like the crazy christian on the corner unless you bend to his way of thinking youre going to his version of hell (stupidity here on earth)

same as another man who made the doco "The God who wasnt there"
you know how born again christians are a little bit over the top.. he`s like a born again athiest! so much hate towards the religion

extremists on both sides give their respective beliefs a bad name

[jman420]

I think at some point, you missed my point, its Not about God, its about the generalization of haveing strong beliefes ,that build strong character, If somone believed strongly enough in in a rubber band to give them hope and faith, to give them some sort of deeper meaning to life then just the every day grind, im fine with that, But my point was almost completely missed, here, yes , yes I do believe in God, but thats only a personal view.

My point Goes on to something that really wasnt conveyed properly in my first post. i believe, that unless someone has found something to give them hope in existance beyond death, they lead a shallow and empty life :( devoid of the happyness that hope, even if it was false hope, can give one in an otherwise hopless situation that is beyond our controll, my underline meaning behind the entire first post, was the natural human fear of death and the ways people cope with it.
death is an issue that for lack of proper words, terrifies me. It's a subjet I ponder more then any healthy person should, concidering the hold that the fear of it has over me.

Because if you put real thought into it bro, and i can see you have, religion, all religion. is little more then then a diversion to calm society of there own fear of death. ( thats not to say i dont hold true to my own beliefs~ I believe them fully. But come on, at the same time im not gullible and weak minded. there may be truth to some If not all religion, over time, differnt people with different views,,different launguages and different cultures, took religion in under there own perceptions, surely only a fool would expect the truth to be the same for everyone, everywhere in every culture.


Well... that makes more sence, but... I still have a problem with your theory of happyness...

okay, so I see what you mean about life after death an all... and wanting to go somewhere better... but, at what cost?? you spend your real life (the only one your going to have) trying to apese a figment in hopes that when you die, you go somewhere better...
why isnt the idea of good, spend your life on this rock as best as you can... not with the constant worry that your being watched, not with the idea that your going to be judged if you drink, or smoke, or have sex with your girlfriend before your married or whatever...

instead of these things, instead of doing everything they want to do, its always a restriction... its just because they want a better life when they die... and thats what I dont understand.. I want the best life now, because its the only one I'm going to get..

and if you dont mind me saying, I still dont get how the common christian has any better moral values then a person with strong ethical education.. I am currently taking a college philosophy class that has covered ethics... and although there is a theory of ethics based on "divine Command" I think that ethics lie somewhere else... not with this fear of dying and going to "HELL"

but just for kicks, I'll even example how the theory of "Divine Command" asks the question, and how it still doesent answer any ethical questions... so the theory of Divine Command asks: "How do we know God's will?"

the answers are:
the Bible, (book that several different people wrote without any real proof of information... aswell as the fact that it has been changed so many times, that its not even the same book anymore...)
and
teaching institutions, (these are things like churches, religious schools, places like this... but they can enforce their own beliefs on people without them even knowing... it becomes combiluted with the idea of God's will...)

both of these two answer the questions of what is right, and what is wrong... but, they do not answer how things are right or wrong.. you can ask a pastor, is it right for me to use cannabis for personal use? and he will answer no.. you can ask the bible if its right and (aside from it being a very one sided conversation) the bible will say yes (provided its not an abridged, edited version) and this will lead you to a problem with ethics even when considering God as your base for things...
when you consider all the other options for ethics and finding whats right and wrong, there are so many more things to consider then church, and a book... things like, "how do the pro's and con's measure out?" other options are things like, if it doesnt hurt anyone, and makes you happy, it is the right thing to do.. but if it hurts people, and makes you happy, it is the wrong thing to do..

(sorry to use Cannabis as the example, but I'm writing an ethics essay on that right now... so its whats in my mind)

these are just ethics, but at the same time, there are 5 other theories that do not corrilate with God, and have to do with human desire, and the right for humanity to exist for happyness, and not for God...


and just as a final question, if God existed, why would he force his "perfect" creation through a test, that you have a 99% chance of failing??

(by this I do not mean that people do the wrong things, but simply that all people are born with the so-called "original sin" and will go to hell anyway...)



but yeah, to anyone that is reading this page, take an intro to philosophy class... or just look for the book I used in the bibliography of the essay I wrote on this subject...

[acn010]

religion just makes people to have a purpose and organize, without religion we will be like disorganized animals..... in a way( were animals, i know)

[opiate81]

one question.. how can someone have better morals if theyre scared into having those morals
if one chooses to live by them of their own free will are they not a more highly evolved human?
christians may say its their free will thats lets them choose to live that way but they also choose to believe that they`ll get eternal damnation if they dont follow those guidelines

another thing.. how do you derive happiness from .. well any of the 3 books

The word laugh/laughter is mentioned only 9 times in the Quran 8 of them in the context
of ridicule or mockery as in: "Let them laugh a little: much will they weep" (009.082) or
"Those in sin used to laugh at those who believed" (083.029).
The Bible is not that much different the Old Testament, which consists of 24 Books,
mentions laugh/laughter all of 32 times in the New Testament which consists of 27 Books
laugh/laughter is mentioned just 6 times. For example, in James 4:9 it says: Be
afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to
heaviness.
(by contrast death/dead/slay/kill is mentioned 231 times in the Quran, 1,017 times in the
Old Testament, and 443 times in the New Testament.)
Humor and religion don't mix.

[shadowprophet]

Well... that makes more sence, but... I still have a problem with your theory of happyness...

okay, so I see what you mean about life after death an all... and wanting to go somewhere better... but, at what cost?? you spend your real life (the only one your going to have) trying to apese a figment in hopes that when you die, you go somewhere better...
why isnt the idea of good, spend your life on this rock as best as you can... not with the constant worry that your being watched, not with the idea that your going to be judged if you drink, or smoke, or have sex with your girlfriend before your married or whatever...

instead of these things, instead of doing everything they want to do, its always a restriction... its just because they want a better life when they die... and thats what I dont understand.. I want the best life now, because its the only one I'm going to get..

and if you dont mind me saying, I still dont get how the common christian has any better moral values then a person with strong ethical education.. I am currently taking a college philosophy class that has covered ethics... and although there is a theory of ethics based on "divine Command" I think that ethics lie somewhere else... not with this fear of dying and going to "HELL"

but just for kicks, I'll even example how the theory of "Divine Command" asks the question, and how it still doesent answer any ethical questions... so the theory of Divine Command asks: "How do we know God's will?"

the answers are:
the Bible, (book that several different people wrote without any real proof of information... aswell as the fact that it has been changed so many times, that its not even the same book anymore...)
and
teaching institutions, (these are things like churches, religious schools, places like this... but they can enforce their own beliefs on people without them even knowing... it becomes combiluted with the idea of God's will...)

both of these two answer the questions of what is right, and what is wrong... but, they do not answer how things are right or wrong.. you can ask a pastor, is it right for me to use cannabis for personal use? and he will answer no.. you can ask the bible if its right and (aside from it being a very one sided conversation) the bible will say yes (provided its not an abridged, edited version) and this will lead you to a problem with ethics even when considering God as your base for things...
when you consider all the other options for ethics and finding whats right and wrong, there are so many more things to consider then church, and a book... things like, "how do the pro's and con's measure out?" other options are things like, if it doesnt hurt anyone, and makes you happy, it is the right thing to do.. but if it hurts people, and makes you happy, it is the wrong thing to do..

(sorry to use Cannabis as the example, but I'm writing an ethics essay on that right now... so its whats in my mind)

these are just ethics, but at the same time, there are 5 other theories that do not corrilate with God, and have to do with human desire, and the right for humanity to exist for happyness, and not for God...


and just as a final question, if God existed, why would he force his "perfect" creation through a test, that you have a 99% chance of failing??

(by this I do not mean that people do the wrong things, but simply that all people are born with the so-called "original sin" and will go to hell anyway...)



but yeah, to anyone that is reading this page, take an intro to philosophy class... or just look for the book I used in the bibliography of the essay I wrote on this subject...

The problem with the bible and church, is they are some what seperated. Ive asked those very same questsions. The bible sais to take the herbs of the earth and use them.

however there are many things people dont know about pot. Pot as we know it hasnt always been around, the hemp plant has always been, but it didnt always have thc in it.
Pot, it a crossbreed between hemp. and some other fern, I forget the name.

( however reguardless of that, Both plants where herbs, and I assume the creator saw this hybrid comeing at some point)

But pot as we know it has only exisisted for a few hundred years, And historicly has been proven to have been a creation of man. * this is as i understand it is the history of marijuana- however dont directly quote me on that, because even I dont know everything. ;p This is just the way I heard it lol .

Now as for the reasons the church has strong feelings aginst drugs and alcahol, come down to one stipulation. *obey mans laws, for what is true on earth shall be true in heaven.

If a law of the land is made here on earth. and you break that law. Even in gods eyes, You have broken the law and thusly sinned. ( provided the law isnt an unreasonible alienation of our own God given rights.

I hope that clears that up some what bro :thumbup:

[gunntims0103]

time traveling people from the future wrote and encoded the bible to predict future events and ultimitly prevent them. There is a God or at least a higher being. jesus will show himself to all as a comit and assumpt all believers and leave the rest on earth

i don't really know truthfully :D

[jman420]

one question.. how can someone have better morals if theyre scared into having those morals
if one chooses to live by them of their own free will are they not a more highly evolved human?
christians may say its their free will thats lets them choose to live that way but they also choose to believe that they`ll get eternal damnation if they dont follow those guidelines

another thing.. how do you derive happiness from .. well any of the 3 books

The word laugh/laughter is mentioned only 9 times in the Quran 8 of them in the context
of ridicule or mockery as in: "Let them laugh a little: much will they weep" (009.082) or
"Those in sin used to laugh at those who believed" (083.029).
The Bible is not that much different the Old Testament, which consists of 24 Books,
mentions laugh/laughter all of 32 times in the New Testament which consists of 27 Books
laugh/laughter is mentioned just 6 times. For example, in James 4:9 it says: Be
afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to
heaviness.
(by contrast death/dead/slay/kill is mentioned 231 times in the Quran, 1,017 times in the
Old Testament, and 443 times in the New Testament.)
Humor and religion don't mix.

NOW THATS WHAT I'M TALKIN' BOUT'!
I agree fully, granted it takes away and put's down religion, I do agree that humans that think for themselves, and work on a theory of ethics (thats best for all) are more intellegent people.. it may seem strannge, but at the same time, its not a desire for the information to be handed to you... its not a way to always have a guide beside you, it means that your life is your own, and no figment or person has to be there to tell you what your ethics should be... I live for myself, never harm others, want to live in peace, and be what most people would refer to as a "hippie" without the proposision of God smiting me, and sending me to a place of eternal evil... just because I lived my life as a human, and not as a sheep, following what the so-called shepard said... there is no shepard now, there might have been once, but as I have considered (if God did once exist) once Jesus died, it seems like all of earth was SOL... (at least looking at the christian view) because there was no longer a guide, we were all just left alone for 2000 years now, to fend for ourselves... and if God is going to send me to hell for trying to think for myself, I think that we have one F%$KED UP DICTATOR!

just another thing I have considered recently is the idea of creation... if you think about the universe, (it gives me a headache) and I'm sure everyone else is the same way... if you honestly think about the reason for life on this rock, going around a giant ball of flaming gas, along with 8 other celestial objects, all within a group of stars held in a circle by Sygnis X1 (The Milky Way's black hole) in a universe of uncountable other galaxies of the same shape and size... you realize that there has to be a reason... but because most people are dumb (or just oblivious(or just dont care)) this is automaticly sent to the arguement of God, as the reason.. the people that accualy think about reason, and arent confused by a creator, can see the other reasons...
for instance, Cygnis X1, Milky Way's black hole, is whats holding our galaxy together, its the reason we are not floating around in space smashing into other stars and what-not... but at the same time, our sun is what's keeping Earth from crashing into other planets and stars and what-not..
I guess what I'm getting at is: Reason, over God...
Reason is what is created by humans to explain things (science if you will)
God was created by humans to explain things with no evedence or logic involved... simply just the easiest way to explain everything....


now! onto Pot.... people have accualy found THC resin on a rock in the mountians of the middle east and asia, dating back about 4000 years.. granted Cannabis (the plant) has not become widely used since the last few hundred years.. it was there for 3800 years before, and probobly even before that...

you can quote me, because believe it or not, I have researched and learned all I can about every drug on earth... (no, I havent used them, I just know everything about them, their origin, and what they do) :p

[shadowprophet]

NOW THATS WHAT I'M TALKIN' BOUT'!
I do agree that humans that think for themselves, and work on a theory of ethics (thats best for all) are more intellegent people..

That. statment was very carefully worded, So dont mistake my generalization argument, as directly aimed at you.

However this subjet does demand cross examination.

Since the dawn of exisistance, People have used this logic, Ohh these people believe in things they can not prove, in things i don't understand, therefore they must be unintelligent....

This narrow minded thinking shows its own ignorance if you put some thought into it.

Just because someone feels more comfortable in a group of people that follow a certain belief, doesn't mean there mentally weak if you where to ask me, I would say it shows intelligence in it's own right.

Even right now all of us flock to the forums for one reason or another, in an almost ritualistic manor, carry out our daily repetitive tasks, because we find something in this repetitive task we need.

humans are followers,learners, by nature.
in one turn those who proclaim mental independence of societies strong hold, while following the examples of there own roll models, seems very narrow minded to me.

The truth is. Even the most independent thinkers of all time , follow there own roll models examples. And i think that Just because people have a problem with God doesn't give them the right to go about (~insulting,~ insulting may be too harsh a word :\) others intelligence.

i can only think a truly enlightened individual would be more open minded toward other beliefs regarding intelligence and other cultures,even if those other cultures are directly adverse to them :thumbup:

[ExcruciationX]

first off, athiests are the group of humans that are smart enough to realize that the wool that has been pulled over their eye's is not true.. no matter what you may think, its got to do with realization.. not faith, not expectation, not because they want to be different..

its because they realize that there is no God, they realize that there is no reason for God to exist, they realize that all evedence points twards the non-existance of God..


You typed all of this out?

This is the part of the post I liked the most. I'm happy that someone has talked some sense into this subject. The Catholics (Capitalized the letter "C", happy now?) don't want to admit that the bible is a flawed book, that is a shadow of what it once was.

[dejkirkby]

@ accordion boy. After re-reading through this thread, I apologise for claiming you are Mel Gibson. I can kind of understand your point, but it's just some aspects of the way you explain it are a bit left field.

[jman420]

That. statment was very carefully worded, So dont mistake my generalization argument, as directly aimed at you.

However this subjet does demand cross examination.

Since the dawn of exisistance, People have used this logic, Ohh these people believe in things they can not prove, in things i don't understand, therefore they must be unintelligent....

This narrow minded thinking shows its own ignorance if you put some thought into it.

Just because someone feels more comfortable in a group of people that follow a certain belief, doesn't mean there mentally weak if you where to ask me, I would say it shows intelligence in it's own right.

Even right now all of us flock to the forums for one reason or another, in an almost ritualistic manor, carry out our daily repetitive tasks, because we find something in this repetitive task we need.

humans are followers,learners, by nature.
in one turn those who proclaim mental independence of societies strong hold, while following the examples of there own roll models, seems very narrow minded to me.

The truth is. Even the most independent thinkers of all time , follow there own roll models examples. And i think that Just because people have a problem with God doesn't give them the right to go about (~insulting,~ insulting may be too harsh a word :\) others intelligence.

i can only think a truly enlightened individual would be more open minded toward other beliefs regarding intelligence and other cultures,even if those other cultures are directly adverse to them :thumbup:

Yes, I know what you mean, I didn't mean intellegent, in a sence of being better, smarter people, I simply ment, that the people that dont live by religion, think for themselves, and dont live for someone else's thoughts and beliefs... Now, I will admit that quite a few people do live for themselves, without being religious, and are intellegent, and smart, and intresting people, and they do do things that seem wrong.. however, they still always have a sence of ethics... but then you always have the people that do live their life by religion.. they still only live their (only) life in fear.. fear that if they do anything that is not stated as right (by the bible and church an all) they will go to hell.. almost giving religion an upper hand in the sence of being a "scare tactic"... which of course, is kind of the subject at hand, as you said that people without religion will have a lesser sence of what is right, and what is wrong... but still, people that live their lives by religion, live as slaves to their beliefs.. people that live with their own beliefs, will live as themselves... and I guess thats my point for this whole thing... I live my life as I live it.. I do not consider my so-called "afterlife" because I know when I die, its the end... there is no more... once the electricity is gone from my brain, I no longer think... there isnt a shiny gate in front of me, there is nothing... because my conciousness is the only thing that keeps me alive now.. if I didnt have that ie. I died, I would stop thinking, and therefor, quit being alive (ironic isn't it? lol) so in summation, I live for me now, improve my life, improve humanity, have children to exist continuing my species, and one day die, and fade away...

when you bring heaven and hell into this, people dont worry about dying, they think that they will exist forever.. but because they want this so badly, they sacrifice their only life, to have one when they die... I dont honestly want to exist forever, when I'm old and die, I will consider the life I had, and not want anymore... there is no reason to exist forever... but to most people, they will give up the rights as humans, to go to a place of peace and happyness... (sounds kinda, assinine doesen't it???) yet, we are nothing more then animals, and nobody has ever considered killing deer as "I wonder if that guy is going to heaven???" because they dont care... they think that humans, and humans only will be going to this place of happy fantasy...

but at the same time, it makes it sound like thats all they are going to be good for... the only reason they obey these laws I have said, is because they want to be better then the people going to hell... they want to go to this place of unimagineable wonder... the only reason I'd want to go to heaven is to ask God 3 things... "W?, T?, F?"...


You typed all of this out?

This is the part of the post I liked the most. I'm happy that someone has talked some sense into this subject. The Catholics (Capitalized the letter "C", happy now?) don't want to admit that the bible is a flawed book, that is a shadow of what it once was.

yes, I did type all you see on here lol... but yes, I agree, The Bible was once a book based on the stories of God, and the people that supposedly were connected to God.. but, even King James (probobly the most used bible version ever) even King James did modify many things... (not the king himself, but people did it for him) anyway! but yeah, it has been changed from the once, quality book...

but even then, you dont see people living their lives by other books of fiction... so why are the many different bible's, the rules for life...

granted they may have the word "Holy" printed on the cover, it doesent mean that they are in fact written as holy... God didnt write the Bible, humans on earth, with a story to tell wrote it....

and just to cover all religions, I do say "The Bible" but I am accualy refering to all holy stories.. not just the Christian-Catholic Bible...

I honestly am enjoying this conversation, and do hope that this doesent get locked due to it being on religion and all.. but if there's one thing I enjoy more then anything else, its having other people understand my opinion... so thanks:thumbup:

[Accordion]

my problem with the whole atheist thing, is as follows

-lets talk about our two hands as an analogy-
if left never existed, would right either?

now i dont follow [for my self] any standardised religion. but opposition for the sake of opposition is needless and green* and actually my theory works as direct counter to Jman420's...which is good, now i need to investigate further...

[thank you very much for this thread....society! :p

[ExcruciationX]

Yes, I know what you mean, I didn't mean intellegent, in a sence of being better, smarter people, I simply ment, that the people that dont live by religion, think for themselves, and dont live for someone else's thoughts and beliefs... Now, I will admit that quite a few people do live for themselves, without being religious, and are intellegent, and smart, and intresting people, and they do do things that seem wrong.. however, they still always have a sence of ethics... but then you always have the people that do live their life by religion.. they still only live their (only) life in fear.. fear that if they do anything that is not stated as right (by the bible and church an all) they will go to hell.. almost giving religion an upper hand in the sence of being a "scare tactic"... which of course, is kind of the subject at hand, as you said that people without religion will have a lesser sence of what is right, and what is wrong... but still, people that live their lives by religion, live as slaves to their beliefs.. people that live with their own beliefs, will live as themselves... and I guess thats my point for this whole thing... I live my life as I live it.. I do not consider my so-called "afterlife" because I know when I die, its the end... there is no more... once the electricity is gone from my brain, I no longer think... there isnt a shiny gate in front of me, there is nothing... because my conciousness is the only thing that keeps me alive now.. if I didnt have that ie. I died, I would stop thinking, and therefor, quit being alive (ironic isn't it? lol) so in summation, I live for me now, improve my life, improve humanity, have children to exist continuing my species, and one day die, and fade away...

when you bring heaven and hell into this, people dont worry about dying, they think that they will exist forever.. but because they want this so badly, they sacrifice their only life, to have one when they die... I dont honestly want to exist forever, when I'm old and die, I will consider the life I had, and not want anymore... there is no reason to exist forever... but to most people, they will give up the rights as humans, to go to a place of peace and happyness... (sounds kinda, assinine doesen't it???) yet, we are nothing more then animals, and nobody has ever considered killing deer as "I wonder if that guy is going to heaven???" because they dont care... they think that humans, and humans only will be going to this place of happy fantasy...

but at the same time, it makes it sound like thats all they are going to be good for... the only reason they obey these laws I have said, is because they want to be better then the people going to hell... they want to go to this place of unimagineable wonder... the only reason I'd want to go to heaven is to ask God 3 things... "W?, T?, F?"...



yes, I did type all you see on here lol... but yes, I agree, The Bible was once a book based on the stories of God, and the people that supposedly were connected to God.. but, even King James (probobly the most used bible version ever) even King James did modify many things... (not the king himself, but people did it for him) anyway! but yeah, it has been changed from the once, quality book...

but even then, you dont see people living their lives by other books of fiction... so why are the many different bible's, the rules for life...

granted they may have the word "Holy" printed on the cover, it doesent mean that they are in fact written as holy... God didnt write the Bible, humans on earth, with a story to tell wrote it....

and just to cover all religions, I do say "The Bible" but I am accualy refering to all holy stories.. not just the Christian-Catholic Bible...

I honestly am enjoying this conversation, and do hope that this doesent get locked due to it being on religion and all.. but if there's one thing I enjoy more then anything else, its having other people understand my opinion... so thanks:thumbup:
*Nods like the people in the crowd during those religious speeches on TV.

He's so right people!

[Accordion]

*Nods like the people in the crowd during those religious speeches on TV.

He's so right people!

haha..green child

...blades of irony cannot caress!!!

[SSaxdude]

Ok before I start I will say I am an agnostic. I don't believe much of the bible is true and I believe we evolved. But I don't deny the possibility of a higher being.

I believe that most people believe in a higher being so that they find meaning in their life, like they believe they need to believe in God or else they believe their life is meaningless.

The problem with any religion is there is no evidence supporting them. Some Christians actually try to use cases where psychotic people even thought they were in heaven as evidence.

I believe religion is ok as long as people keep it to themselves and don't try and push it on other people. I would say the teachings of Jesus are alright, but when Christians use the bible to promote political decisions (namely on gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, etc.) I don't think that is ok and actually anti-Christian.

What I believe is the worst with religion is the push to teach religion in school (creationism/intelligent design.)

Just my two cents.

[Stump]

I think, that there's a lot of members in here,
who didn't believe in God. the christian God.

But remember that someones up there loves you, needs you, and care about you.

[jman420]

If someone up there loved me, why would I be tested on this rock, to find out if I was worthy of being with God???

None of it makes sence... Even if God existed, I don't think I would care... It's more like I would be pist at God for torturing me through this lifetime, never knowing what was up, then showing up in heaven, and getting rejected, sent to hell, and spending all eternity in pain and what-not...

thats my problem with there being someone up there... God would be the biggest panz in the universe, because he refuses to show himself...

And likeSSaxdude said:
"Some Christians actually try to use cases where psychotic people even thought they were in heaven as evidence."
thats true, this is the only thing that any religionn has to go on.. if you think about it, Jesus, 2010 years ago, nobody knew about mental illnensses, so why is it that one man 2010 years ago talking about being the son of God, tweaking out in forrests, seeing things that nobody else could see, thinking that he was a genious because he could ferment wine, being intirely sure he was the master of the human race...
that is what people base the largest religion(Cult) on.. that is the backbone of society... but why??

that is why I was talking about ethics before, ethics and the understanding of the possability that these ideas that have been posed, could be false.. and that religion is just there to controll humanity..

anyway, untill someone comments! I'll leave it at that

[Smurph]

If someone up there loved me, why would I be tested on this rock, to find out if I was worthy of being with God???

None of it makes sence... Even if God existed, I don't think I would care... It's more like I would be pist at God for torturing me through this lifetime, never knowing what was up, then showing up in heaven, and getting rejected, sent to hell, and spending all eternity in pain and what-not...

thats my problem with there being someone up there... God would be the biggest panz in the universe, because he refuses to show himself...

And likeSSaxdude said:
"Some Christians actually try to use cases where psychotic people even thought they were in heaven as evidence."
thats true, this is the only thing that any religionn has to go on.. if you think about it, Jesus, 2010 years ago, nobody knew about mental illnensses, so why is it that one man 2010 years ago talking about being the son of God, tweaking out in forrests, seeing things that nobody else could see, thinking that he was a genious because he could ferment wine...
that is what people base the largest religion(Cult) on.. that is the backbone of society...

that is why I was talking about ethics before, ethics and the understanding of the plossability that these ideas that have been posed, could be false.. and that religion is just there to controll humanity..

anyway, untill someone comments! I'll leave it at that

Jesus was an extraterrestrial.

[Accordion]

@ jman420:

where are ethics from?

and why are you still alive?

[Cap'n 1time]

jesus plays the wii.

[Accordion]

jesus plays the wii.

on friday i will be :p

[shadowprophet]

If someone up there loved me, why would I be tested on this rock,

But i'll try to answer that, if it even has an answer.

in short this, is the million dollar question isnt it.
I belive its possible, That the whole idea of what happens to someone when they pass on is completely missunderstood, there may in fact be an infinite number of things that happens to different people once they pass on this mortal coil. and the whole idea of being tested, or evaulated or judged, is for those that follow a certain path. Thats not to say there isnt other options out there for other people. thats only to say, if one wants to go to the general idea of what christain heaven is, it might benifet them to concider christianity.

It sais the options for the non christians who choose not to accept this, is hell. but ive heard many christians explain hell as simply a an eternity simply outside heaven and devoid of God.

Honestly. Religion is confusing. it seems to limit free thinking, and free will for that matter. giveing believers few options. If all of this sounds negitive. its not ment to..

In truth, I believe the reasons one must be evaluated and judged is simply because the religion christianity has standerds that will not be broken, christianity will not abide by the things they concider sins, For instance J man, If you go to live somewhere forever.. its a hard concept i know, But im sure even you would have rules about the kind of people you would want excluded from this.

Just a thought.

If this isnt acceptible. Give me some time to wake up, get some cofee and get my brain switched on, I think it's still in sleep mode this morning..

In short, Christianity, is for christians, Why people that have no interest in christianity
think its unfair that they cant go to christian heaven. seems like a pointless topic to me really, I mean that whole process pretty much explains itself.


Some enlightening thoughts. For those that believe. It sais in the bible that the wisdom of man. is but foolishness to God.

Jman, Thats why, no one should ever depend on someone else for there information about God, No simple mortal man, is qualified to judge or guide ( your soul) Thats the most precious thing anyone has. And no other person has the wisdom or knowlage to guide you, especally not me.

Some of the questions you ask, are questions that no man can answer, and the only way to find those answers is to seek them out for yourself,

However, Any man that can deny the existance of God without giving Chritianity a try, seems to be limiting there own options,

It sais in the bible that christianity is the only way.. and for certain people, I would say it is the only way,. However, the jewish people, had there promise of salvation long before the gentiles, And I still believe there promise is very valid.

God being perfect, would not make a promise and then break it, All jewish laws and promise are still very much in the proper. To that, I can assure you..

[pibs]

Meaning of life is to reproduce, seriously without that nothing would exist. (oh oh heres where all the religion and human morals mumbo jumbo comes in)

[Accordion]

Honestly. Religion is confusing. it seems to limit free thinking, and free will for that matter. giving believers few options. If all of this sounds negative. its not ment to..


to simply take the opposite option however, is no less constraining, and perhaps more so.

[shadowprophet]

to simply take the opposite option however, is no less constraining, and perhaps more so.

It would seem no matter what options we take,
that there are no options that do not in some way limit us. even those options which people would consider as devoid of all religious meaning, to choose them still limits us im some ways.

ultimately there is no such thing as true freedom.

Reminds me of a song I once heard, Don't remember the band.

Even if you choose not to decide, you have still made a choice.

Makes perfect since to me really.

However, that is exactly the problem non believers have with religion to begin with.
an idea or concept that even lays claim to them, even though they choose to be separate from it. I can even as a believer, almost understand there point of view...

to understand it from an atheists stand point, that some yahoo comes up to them and says, weather you believe or not, it still effects you.

yeah, I can understand there anger and confusion.

As for me, I have made peace with the fact, at least im my eyes. that I did not create myself.
and even though my parents had a lot to do with that. vicariously who created the original man.

Why are we so different from the animals?
why are we vastly more intelligent?
honesty, im an open minded person. But even from an non believers stand point.

The idea of evolution has its flaws.
Man is just to complicated to have sprang fourth from a puddle of ooze that got struck by lightning.

for that matter. of you take the time even as an atheist. to study the genome ( At all) you will see the vast differences between plants animals and humans. and how the many different forms of life on this planet are so dramatically different.

I Don't even understand how the theory of evolution hasn't been disproven,

Yes evolution happens. But never ever does it change from one gnu to another.

An evolved fish will still be a fish. no matter how evolved it becomes.

So if the theory of evolution is correct. then when that lightning hit that puddle of ooze, not only did it have to create life, but billions of different genus, and the corresponding opposite sex for each genus..

Hmm given the likely hood of it happening at all to begin with, what are the astronomical odds of it happening while providing all the different genus and sexes at that same time.

to me the only answer is some sort of intervention, be it devine, or just some aliens that decided to dump there crapper on our little hell hole of a planet.

Regardless of this, life exist's. weather we where created by an existing life force or not, a truly deep mind will ponder the origins of life in general. be it from this planet or another.

[souLLy]

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realisation that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired."
Stephen Hawking

If you guys are interested in Christianity in a purely intelectual way, CS Lewis is probably the best author I've ever read on it. Mere Christianity and The problem of Pain both dissected a lot of what I considered to be contradictions in both Atheism and Christianity. The problem of Pain particularly explains the 'why does god allow suffering in the world, if he's all powerful and loves us, then surely we wouldn't suffer" and Mere Christianity just covers everything, he writes in a very understandable methodical way too.

[Stump]

jesus plays the wii.

please.. just respect the christian faith!

that is blasfemi your ... ARGH!

stop it please!

@Acordian boy

AND YOU ALSO!

[ICE]

cs lewis is a great author except he basically makes jesus into a LION!!! blasphemy??

shadowprophet you are now my favorite member. the thing about these peoples questions only being able to be answered by them finding it out for them selves is the best thing you could have said. its incredibly true beyond what people my realize....

oh and the why does god allow suffering thing..... well i'll give it a go. without suffering we would have no knowledge of evil. jesus said "my people die for lack of knowledge." if everything was perfect we would all die and go to heaven in ignorance. something, i personally, do not like the idea of. also we are tested because god is infinitely holy and just as light and dark cannot mingle neither can god mingle with mankind. at least not until we're purified. he may be gad but he literally CAN NOT be with us physically. we are too evil. god is perfect we are not.

oh and shadowprophet evolution DOES NOT HAPPEN AT ALL! what does happen is adaptation. evolution means one species to another original species. adaptation is just the species physically adjusting to its surrounding. people even do that....

[dejkirkby]

SP has been my favourite member for a long damn time. My wife thinks he's great too. He's such a great person to have a discussion with and he seems to be willing to look at both sides of the coin, unlike a lot of "this is my way and I'm sticking to it" attitudes out there.
Keep the thoughts flowing out of your head SP, because it gives us all something to think about.

[Stump]

he doesn't make Jesus unto a lion.

that's not the same??

[ICE]

yep thats what i try to do.. i mean be non-dogmatic and such. i will calmly and nicely disagree with other's but i wont force what i think down there throat... no matter how right i am.....

stump i have no clue what you mean but in the cs lewis books jesus is represented by a lion. a verse LITERALLY says DO NOT MAKE AN IMAGE OF YOU LORD JESUS CHRIST!!! or anything in heaven.... so what would you call what lewis did????

[jman420]

Jman, Thats why, no one should ever depend on someone else for there information about God, No simple mortal man, is qualified to judge or guide ( your soul) Thats the most precious thing anyone has. And no other person has the wisdom or knowlage to guide you, especally not me.

Some of the questions you ask, are questions that no man can answer, and the only way to find those answers is to seek them out for yourself,


yeah, I'm accualy not asking for help here, I already know much more about religion then most people do.. but, I am simply adding to the arguement by posing my own questions, that at the same time put across the arguement for my side.. ie. dont you suppose that its possible that God doesent exist? because the main thing that he would do would be create humanity, throw us on this rock to test us, and hide from all of us...

but of course thats not how I asked it..

but the questiions that I ask, that no man can answer, is exactly the point... these are the things that I must know in order to be at peace with a God existing... without these questions answered, there is no God, there is not all powerful being that loves me, because of this issue of answering these important questions...


@Accordian boy

I think on a variety of ethics theories, all depends on the subject... but when your ethics theory is What Would Jesus Do?, your going to have some problems...

most of the time my theory of ethics consists of choosing the thing that is right, on a system of if it hurts noone, and brings yourself pleasure.. it is ethical.. if it hurts anyone, it is now unethical...

or sometimes, I will consider the pro's and con's so to speak...

and why am I still alive??? because I havent died yet....

[Accordion]

@Accordian boy

I think on a variety of ethics theories, all depends on the subject... but when your ethics theory is What Would Jesus Do?, your going to have some problems...

most of the time my theory of ethics consists of choosing the thing that is right, on a system of if it hurts noone, and brings yourself pleasure.. it is ethical.. if it hurts anyone, it is now unethical...

or sometimes, I will consider the pro's and con's so to speak...

and why am I still alive??? because I havent died yet....

i dont think you understood...

where do ethics come from...originally?
and
what is your reason for existing?

like i said, i dont constrain my beliefs by cornering myself intentionaly, but i understand that i can never be pure and free of influence...so i no longer aspire to be.
my point is that: being controlled is not the problem, because it is impossible not to be. but believing you are unrestrained; is.
such a way of life is truly very green!
——————————
by the way did you get my P.M. Jman?

[jman420]

i dont think you understood...

where do ethics come from...originally?
and
what is your reason for existing?

like i said, i dont constrain my beliefs by cornering myself intentionaly, but i understand that i can never be pure and free of influence...so i no longer aspire to be.
my point is that: being controlled is not the problem, because it is impossible not to be. but believing you are unrestrained; is.
such a way of life is truly very green!
——————————
by the way did you get my P.M. Jman?

no, I fully understand, I think that you need to either take a philosophy class, or deal with not understanding ethics, or the so-called reason for existing..

one of my favorite theories of ethics is the utilitarianism theory, by Jeremy Bentham. It consists of the rules of the priciple of utility. which says: act so that the concequnces maximize pleasure, and minimize pain for all affected. which basicly means you can do anything, aslong as the pleasure outweighs the pain's for all affected.... this is the theory I mentioned earlier...

but I guess in general, the philosophy of ethics is very broad, there is quite a few different theories... but still, they all answer to the best plan for humanity. all the theories come to an end where there is balance...

when you go into the divine command theory, you loose whats best for humanity, and tip the balance of the scales, to improve the life of christians only... you think that you will go to hell if you dont put money in the collection tray, because someone added that into the bible 500 years ago... so your scared, and of course give your money to the church.. then they get free money for lying to the crowd of people there for church, and then at the end of the day, pocket your hard earned cash...

this gives christiananity and all other religions, an upper hand when you consider divine command as your theory of ethics... you loose all ability to make your own choices.... and give up your ideas, to live for a figment, so that one day, you can die and go to heaven... it just doesent make any more sence then the priciple of utility...

now, onto reason for existing...

this is a question that I have pondered for many years.. and not yet found an answer for.. but at the same time, I think that is the reason that God has existed for 3000 years in the minds of humans... we are a very lost, confused group of animals, and we require things that will clarify these questions that there are no answers for.. that is why religion, and God were created... so we had the answer, for the question: why do we exist?

at the same time, religion can also answer many other questions that there may not be genuine answers for... such as, freak accedents, usualy blamed on God... people being sick, and getting better quickly, usualy blamed on God... the intire universe being so vast, usualy blamed on God... Earth circling Sol, was blamed on God... Luna circling Earth, was blamed on God... Sol rising in the east, and setting in the west, making the sky blue, and black depending, blamed on God at the time...

religion was created so long ago, to lie to us about the reality of the universre, and the way it works....

and thats just another thing that I would like to point out.. this was another thing I nonticed about religion...
God, is always favored over science... I have never seen any religious person say that science made more sence then their God's so-called creation... as I exampled above, Earth going around Sol once a year was blamed on God for a long ass time... untill it was discovered that it in fact was because of gravity, and of course, when they discovered that Sol was not going across the planar Earth..

but at the time, science was tossed aside, to make room for God to be master... and not just a bystander to this happening... it was not for a long time that anyone recognised the scientific applications of the universe... before they could honestly proove somthing, God was the answer for all phenomenon...

I look at our galaxy, and the millions of other galaxies in our universe.. and dont understand why I am the only one looking out, but I still find comfort knowing that there is other planets like ours, probobly with animals on them... but I still find it confusing that this is the planet with me on it, and how I exist only to do this... so I will always be confused about why I exist, but the answer to that question will never be answered (unless I take the lazy way, and go with God)

but there have been other theories, that I have rejected... ie. The Big Bang theory, it realy makes no sence how all this mass, and matter was created from nothing, doesent realy work out... granted, its better then creationism, its still flawed, there needs to be a better explaination...

another would be the theory of evolution, another very flawed theory, that never realy made sence... granted, all organisms can evolve, it doesent seem to make sence that humans evolved from mico-organisms, after the dinosaurs were distroyed...

maybe monkeys came to this planet from another, and started existing, and evolving from there, who knows...

but I guess in a generalization, I want to live in the now, in the 21st century, on the rock I call Earth, going around a ball of flaming gas called Sol, only accompanied by my fellow humans... without caring about this maniacal judging figment we all call God.. without worring about when I die, where will I go... I live in the now, and the now only...

__________________
ya, I got your PM, dont wana change my sig, I like it being freakishly long lol...

[keefurxxcore]

And no this is not aimed at athiests, ( for the record ) even athiests have been proven to be of strong mind and moral.. I suppose im aiming this as a specific type of person, rather..

im athiest and i have a strong mind and moral :) ;)

[Accordion]

no, I fully understand, I think that you need to either take a philosophy class, or deal with not understanding ethics, or the so-called reason for existing... more elitist crap...


such irony is indiginous to the green men who aspire to purple!

stop your half reading and open you eyes! "What" and "Why" are very different things.

surely you cannot be so blind to your directly mirrored fundamentalism...
also the use of "your " is most unwelcome to an [mostly] unsmudged figure!

you must not act so like a sponge if you are to grow strong!
a plant must be conservative and never greedy if it is to maintain structure!

[shadowprophet]

I have to say. This thread has turned into a panicle of tolerance and understanding,

When I started this thread I never suspected it would last. Most usually a controversial topic such as religion ends in strife and and conflict.

Each and every one of you have practiced tolerance and reserve in your calm judgments,
it makes me proud to be a member of a place with such great people,

Just wanted to take the time to thank everyone for allowing me to learn something new. and even restoring some faith that I had lost in group discussions about serious topics.
Thank you everyone:thumbup:

[jman420]

such irony is indiginous to the green men who aspire to purple!

stop your half reading and open you eyes! "What" and "Why" are very different things.

surely you cannot be so blind to your directly mirrored fundamentalism...
also the use of "your " is most unwelcome to an [mostly] unsmudged figure!

you must not act so like a sponge if you are to grow strong!
a plant must be conservative and never greedy if it is to maintain structure!

wow, thats so negitive lol... thanks

lol but seriously, my eye's are open, your eye's may be too, but the wool over them is imepeading your sight...

unsmudged face?! that doesent even make sence..

I will give ya props for the great metephor, nice...


an hey shadowprophet, I'm glad you dont think I'ma one sided fool lol,

kick ass thread, hands down!:thumbup:

[Accordion]

your vision impaired? i wrote figure not face!!!

[jman420]

I see that, still doesent make any sence lol....

[Accordion]

you are stained with ink

[jman420]

anyways, I would like to continue this conversation, without the assinine comments from accordian boy, that dont add anything lol....

so I brought this page back up to where people can see it lol

[bullhead]

anyways, I would like to continue this conversation, without the assinine comments from accordian boy, that dont add anything lol....

so I brought this page back up to where people can see it lol

i think you brought it back up to use the word 'asinine' :P

[shadowprophet]

I just wanted to drop by the thread to let jayman know, yeah. id like to continue this conversation too:cool:

Just be patient with me jay, Ive been kinda sick today.

At first I thought it may be just an upset stomach,
its gotten quite a bit worse as the day went by.

Im actuelly concidering going to the hospital.

Anyway, yes please, leave a good opener for me, and ill be back later to help continue this conversation.

peace out Sp :cool:

[jman420]

dont know what to say man, you go ahead an strike up a subject..

[shadowprophet]

dont know what to say man, you go ahead an strike up a subject..

This is the latest of my current topics, this topic has become stale. however

http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45996

should interest you :cool:

[VampDude]

dont know what to say man, you go ahead an strike up a subject..

I'd happily start a subject...

...if I was religious, but im not! lmao

[jman420]

we're not talking about religion in a positive manner, we were talking about the loss of ethics in athiests and innate ethics.. mostly..

I am not religious either, and I'm sure people can see that.. but, that doesent mean that someone couldnt bring up an arguement that I could agree with.. like shadowprophet's link above! lol....

[Accordion]

circles are tiring... not religious... prove it.!!!

[VampDude]

circles are tiring... not religious... prove it.!!!

im a non-believer!

I don't follow anyone elses so called words of wisdom, and last person who to preach to me got told to F_CK OFF

I also know that there is'nt religion, but rules and laws that are forced onto others by crappy storys... thou shalt NOT do this, thou shalt take a shit on the holy bible

im also a bible burner, cause the bible is full of shit anyway

and last and not least... the only book that has ever made any sense to me was written by Anton Szandor LaVey - the Satanic Bible, thou I don't go by it or anything with the word Bible in it


Vampirisim is cool thou!

[jman420]

dude, tho or though.. thou means you... i.e. "Thou shalt stick a plastic banana up ye bottom...."

anyway!

ya, well, you may think that way, and that is one way to argue, but at the same time, you have to realize that religion and the bible are ways of controlling humanity.. as I have said before, its an issue of ethics.. and you seem to have none.. where-as religious people generaly act a certin way, in order to maintain their social standing. but, its still the 'divine command" theory of ethics.. I prefer the other ethics theories.. which basicly state that you must only do things that harm nobody but yourself.. or the theory that states that you should do all you can to maximise pleasure, and minimize pain to all people involved in somthing...

I think that although religion may keep us under controll, I would never believe in somthing only because I felt as though I needed to in order to live past my normal life time...

I dont understand why I am here, but neither does anyone else.. and the God arguement for existance, doesent make any more sence then the theory that I am merely a idea in everyone elses mind... and that the reason that we as humans exist is because we are known to exist..

anyways, I will await another post for to argue with :p

[Accordion]

are you talking to me???

if so, [and even if your not...] it would seem you are making hasty decisions on your subject

surely you can see that at the root of any belief [spiritual, deities , or otherwise] they are the same. your advocation of your own, is proof enough of such innerneed....

either way, when faced with a selection, who is to suppose the doors are one way only...? surely an understanding of all, is greater than being locked to one path

[jman420]

nope dont think I was... but the point still remains valid..

[the_eternal_dark]

Not to sound like a dick or anything, but I believe holidays are now have little more meaning than a marketing scheme, this is mainly prevelant in the Christian holiday of Christmas.

[Accordion]

nope dont think I was... but the point still remains valid..

as does mine

[acn010]

so, now christmas is what.. a scheme to lure people to buy stuff? i do not think so.....

[Accordion]

well now it is...a whole third of all UK purchases take place in the last 8 weeks of the year...either way, without christmas the world economy would collapse!

[acn010]

well now it is...a whole third of all UK purchases take place in the last 8 weeks of the year...either way, without christmas the world economy would collapse!

i wonder why.......:p

[the_eternal_dark]

i wonder why.......:p

Because stores wouldn't be able to advertise for any good reason then (atleast on a global scale)??

It's good to see you all still follow a religion. I on the other hand still see it as more of a crutch.

Everyone has something wrong in their religion it seems.

Believe what you all want, I'm not here to sway one way or another or judge, that's just not me. I support all of your (dcemu members) choices.

You all are probably the closest thing I've had to a family in the longest time.

[XioN980]

for me the presence of a god is clear. i dont try and do good for fear of punishment i do it for fear of letting him down. he made us with the free will to choice good or evil even though he didnt have to. its the least we can do to be good since a certain someone did die for me and you individually... i am a christian but i am not a baptist or a Methodist or any other ist. there is NO denomination that is wholly correct and therefore i am not a part of any of them officially.

Im with this guy too. Why bother being a denomination when you can just be Christian? All the denominations have problems. Why not just Believe. The Catholic Church states that you must earn a place in heaven, but, that is no where in the bible.

Methodists allow Homosexuality which is an abomination by the bible.

And BTW All the religions are NOT the same, again Catholicisism. The concept of a one world religion is very very wrong. For example:

People say Islam and Christianity are the same, thats bull:

Allah had no son.
Allah had three Daughters
God is not called the Moon God
Jesus is not a prophet in the eye's of Christians

Big diffenrences

Thats my two pennies worth :thumbup:

[the_eternal_dark]

Im with this guy too. Why bother being a denomination when you can just be Christian? All the denominations have problems. Why not just Believe. The Catholic Church states that you must earn a place in heaven, but, that is no where in the bible.

1. Methodists allow Homosexuality which is an abomination by the bible.

And BTW All the religions are NOT the same, again Catholicisism. The concept of a one world religion is very very wrong. For example:

2. People say Islam and Christianity are the same, thats bull:

Allah had no son.
Allah had three Daughters
God is not called the Moon God
Jesus is not a prophet in the eye's of Christians

Big diffenrences

Thats my two pennies worth :thumbup:

1. So is premarital sex...

2. It's also a matter of translation and interpretation as well.

[jman420]

ok so check this out...

being gay is no problem with me... although I avoid gay people as though they were the plague.. I care not who they wish to have sex with...

however, I look at christianity and think of how they are the true cause of stereotypes and problems...

even here you have stated that christianity is the best of all religions, and yet, have no reason to think this..

you say that there are differences between christianity and islam.. this is not an issue, this is not a fact, we understand this.. because if islam was at all similar, christians would have taken the religion and turned it into their own religion...

I believe that this universe is ours, and that (strange as it may seem) we are the only real intellegent beings in it... however, intellegence is only thought of as how we as humans think...

if we looked at the rest of the universe, its possible that we could find other beings.. but where did this idea of God come from?

the idea of god came from a group of lost, confused humans, lost in the idea of "Why do we exist?" and "What is the reason we are here?" God answers these questions as an example for A. we exist because God made us. and B. We are here to go to heaven...

now let me ask these two things..

What is the reason that God created us?

and

Why would we want to go to heaven?


if you look at these two questions you can see the true flaw in creationism..

if God were to exist (hypatheticly) then we would be pawns in some large battle between the God of good, and the God of evil.. if you look at the christian bible, you will see that the reason we exist is merely to create an ego boost to the good god by prooving that infact, we overcame the problems of evil.. but if the God that may or may not exist was truly all powerful, why would God ask this of us without any warning or information.. we are truly lost within this world trying to be ethical people, while merely working under these flawed ideas of perfection...

I may be ranting on to a group that doesnt care, and doesent feal the way that I do, but never the less, I feal that my philosophical questions need to be answered and perfected before I submit my ideas to the rest of the world...


but moving along...

question number two... "Why would we want to go to heaven?"

if all of humanity made it to the christian heaven, we would all co-exist in a world filled with the same people that may have caused us problems before we came to heaven...

the same ideas would still exist, sex, drugs, money, mental modification (via drugs) and the idea of wanting somthing better...

if I were to exist in heaven would it be any different then my life now? how can we compare the world beyond our own lives to the world that we exist in now?

why is it that people want somthing better then the (it may be sad, but true) then the world that we live in now?

the world that we exist in is the only world that we will ever have.. its the only thing that we will ever have as our own, there is all this grandure over heaven and hell, but in reality, why dont peope try to make the world a better place for the rest of humanity?

I recently had a good laugh about a pastor at a church in Colorado here that bought crystal meth, and prostitution from a male drug dealer.. is this the model that you want for your religion? is that the model of ethicly just people that tell you the rights and wrongs of the world? I want to know why the humans that believe in religions so deeply that they will give up their humanity for the mythical Gods that they believe in, that they will completely look past the wrongs that are happening inside their own (cult)...

I dont want to upset people in here by the way, I simply want people to look at the words I say, and understand reality.. the laws stated in The Bible, and all other readings, are simply words written by humans, reflecting their image of what God would want, if God existed..

the words have also been changed, and condenced only to cover up the things said in the past.. many of the parts of the original Bible have been taken out to controll the people of the world...

personaly, I choose to live for myself, and all humans... I want to live my life to the fullest, do whatever I can to keep myself happy without harming others, and try to make the world better for those that follow me.. I dont want to make waves, I simply want to be heard..

the words that you may have heard about the ethics of religion are flawed.. the idea throughout religion has been to pull the wool over the eyes of humanity simply in order to controll the population by a means of 'hearding' the people to another thought process..

if you consider the means by which The Bible has been created, you will see how it was written over a very large ammount of time, and changed constantly, simply to keep the ideas of the people kept as wrong, in order to heard us to safety..


please dont anybody ban me, I am simply putting my two cents across, I am not causing problems, simply creating questions, and stating the things that I have seen in humanity over the years that religion has been flourishing...


and as a closing statement:
religious people are sheep, and religion is their shepard...

[VampDude]

but where did this idea of God come from?



a group of people who wanted to impose laws and have people either fear or look upto something, they were obviously stupid enough to believe as back then people would believe just about anything...

...before war and terrorism, which started thousands of years later. they would believe things like things would fall from the skies and that natural disasters such as hurricanes and floods and Thunder/Lightningwere the act of a god against them for being bad or committing sins and blah blah, they lived in fear of what they were told and did'nt understand and lead to believe

it's common sense!

[mesosade]

There is one quite simple way to put it. If there was no religion there would be no war and terrorism. BUT it would casue chaos. what would stop someone from commiting murder or a sin knowing they;re not going to hell beacause it doesn;t exist there would be NO moral laws really.

[XioN980]

1. So is premarital sex...

2. It's also a matter of translation and interpretation as well.

Although many things are that is not.

In all original languages that scripture in any religion it still carries a similar meaning. The roots of Islam exist with temples to A Moon God, who later became known as Allah. This Moon God had daughters which became known as Godesses. Nothing like this in ANY language Implicit or Explicit alike messages is related to the Christian/Jewish God. These two religons share the same god as the noly difference between Orthadox Jew's and Christians/Messianic Jews is that they dont have a new testament in the Jewish Bible. The Jewish Bible is basically the old Testament of the Chrisitan Bible.


BTW: The most accurite translation from the original Biblical Languages (Greek and Hebrew) Is the King James Edition. The only reason the Pope had it translated to Latin in Medieval times was so poor men couldn't read it.

[Accordion]

ok so check this out...

...and as a closing statement:
religious people are sheep, and religion is their shepard...

wow, such irony is painful !

hippopotamusocrit!!!

the gay thing was lies!, and if you cannot see the similarities between your fundamentalist approach on philoshopy and you direct mirrowing of standardized religion...it is a true shame.

when you state the names of those you take your ethics from, how is it different from any other appropriation of belief !

it is a shame you cannot be open minded enough to see the cage you have put yourself within, and to break free just a little, merely to see that appropriation is a nesseciaty and will never be escaped, that is where things start to become interesting. and you can begin to make desicisions based on all rather than one!!

remember; truth is impossible, butthe aspiration to truth, may be the ultimate goal of man

[the_eternal_dark]

Although many things are that is not.

In all original languages that scripture in any religion it still carries a similar meaning. The roots of Islam exist with temples to A Moon God, who later became known as Allah. This Moon God had daughters which became known as Godesses. Nothing like this in ANY language Implicit or Explicit alike messages is related to the Christian/Jewish God. These two religons share the same god as the noly difference between Orthadox Jew's and Christians/Messianic Jews is that they dont have a new testament in the Jewish Bible. The Jewish Bible is basically the old Testament of the Chrisitan Bible.


BTW: The most accurite translation from the original Biblical Languages (Greek and Hebrew) Is the King James Edition. The only reason the Pope had it translated to Latin in Medieval times was so poor men couldn't read it.

Wasn't it written by Shakespeare?

[jman420]

wow, such irony is painful !

hippopotamusocrit!!!

the gay thing was lies!, and if you cannot see the similarities between your fundamentalist approach on philoshopy and you direct mirrowing of standardized religion...it is a true shame.

when you state the names of those you take your ethics from, how is it different from any other appropriation of belief !

it is a shame you cannot be open minded enough to see the cage you have put yourself within, and to break free just a little, merely to see that appropriation is a nesseciaty and will never be escaped, that is where things start to become interesting. and you can begin to make desicisions based on all rather than one!!

remember; truth is impossible, butthe aspiration to truth, may be the ultimate goal of man


wow, that is realy funny dude, you argue exactly the same way I would.. however, with you and your open minded cage theory, I will say that you, are similar in the same way... you too are held within a cage of thought, unable to escape... so if you dont mind, I dont need to be attacked, just argued with lol...


by the way, I was plastered when I wrote that last post, so its possible that not all things made sence :p my bad...

truth, the final frontier?
I dont see how truth can be untrue... you see, truth is just a part of logic. there are many ways of telling wether or not things are in fact, true...

many of these ways just have to do with understanding of the subject..

if you ask your friend "are you an idiot?!" what is the truth? they will reply "hellz no ya panz!" but in your mind, you stated they're idiocity by suggesting that they were.. so you stated they were an idiot, they replied that they werent, where is the truth??

either way...

Accordianboy... have you ever taken a single philosophy class?? if not, its not right for you to be arguing about it...

[Accordion]

if you ask your friend "are you an idiot?!" what is the truth? they will reply "hellz no ya panz!" but in your mind, you stated they're idiocity by suggesting that they were.. so you stated they were an idiot, they replied that they werent, where is the truth??

either way...

Accordianboy... have you ever taken a single philosophy class?? if not, its not right for you to be arguing about it...

oh dear

why do you reply with such elitist comments.
if you need the answer...it is no!
but i dont feel the need to gain teaching of concepts through such a constricting and forced manner...if i wanted that, i would go to church!
surely you have not lived before this life, so it is not right for you to live it!

my point on truth relays back to our consistent appropriation of ourselves[as a species] and our inability to break beyond the boundary of our conception. we are human, so our perceptions are human, therefore all our perceptions are concieved from ourselves and not the world.
in which case, the search for truth is in vain, for we can never break free from ourselves.
of course pervertion of language can be very misleading, and truth can become whatever is wanted. even all i speak of is my own and never TRUE!
but nothing can ever be true, in the truthful semantics of the word: True. for true is a word of untruth, if the man is a man of untruth!!![ha]

what is ironic in my case however, is that after extensive research into physics and more importantly cosmology...i have found no answers which remove a deity from the process of the ...and it is that which brought me to my current thoughts...whatever they may be.

[jman420]

WHAT?! PHYSICS AND COSMOLOGY?! AND PHILOSOPHY?!

if your anywhere near as good at writing music as you are at arguing a point.... you need to get on the ball . . . . lol


but yeah, I see what your saying I guess.. I agree that there could in fact be a deity in the universe.. but as it cannot be found, and does not directly influence the earth, I dont believe that one exists only to make our lives better, or that one shines down on my saving my life all the time...

Its not realy an issue of God existing (this thread) it started as an arugment for the ethics of athiests... now it has moved to the arguements for truth... now I bring it to the arguement that I beleave that if a god existed, it would exist only as the "first cause" in the cause and effect theory of the creation of the universe...

but never-the-less, I commend you for always having a negitive assumtion of my posts thus far... you always start out your posts, with a negitive arguement as to how your oponent is wrong..

if you'll notice, all my arguements have started stating my opinion, and showing how others may have missunderstood me... then continuing with the arguements possably contradicting other people...

either way! I would like to accualy talk to you Accordianboy, not over the forum.. if you haver an IM service, such as Yahoo, MSN, AIM, would you plz PM me so I could argue with ya about this crap faster! lol

[Accordion]

i wasnt intending to be negative towards you, just trying to weed out some other views...
its hard, because my current understanding has come in a very short process, and i am still far from grasping all of it myself...i am just completely at the conclusion that a creator does exist [or existed] and that any views any one may have are only true and logical to a point. the furthest back point of course being our humanity.

i am sory if i seemed to be attacking, i really didnt mean it that way, but elitism really gets on my tits!
and i have been struggling to comprehend the thoughts in my head as they pass, and i only seem to concieve them in unfufilled ways.
i have been on a strange journey.
and i am still upon it

oh and im on msn[ you should have my address] in fact im messaging now!

[scarph]

i just gotta go back to what accordian boy originally said.

it just makes me laugh that he would say that.

Sure a lot of things were influenced by Christianity in this world.

but then again a lot of things are influenced by the moon.

that doesnt mean were all moons.

[Accordion]

almost funny...almost

[scarph]

that was not at all a joke

if you think thats funny
thats how you should think your original theory was

[Accordion]

you say that as if i changed my mind...

it would be correct to assume i was saying something to have an effect, but still, i am at least half right

...all roads connect...