The Proof for Christ's Claims

[MasterMind]

sura 16:61 "if god were to take mankind to task for their wrongoing, he would not leave here one living creature"

thought good works got you to heaven?

the quran cites its elegance as evidence for its inspiration in sura 17:88 -"If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."

the quran is right because its well written? interesting theory..

The first part 16:61 shows the mercy of God on his creation. But because God has mercy on his creation some deeds are overlooked.

Quran says sura 103 "By the passage of time. Man is in loss except those who BELIEVE AND do righteous deeds. And encourage each other to the truth. And encourage each other to patience."

So you need both belief that there is One God, All Prophets/messengers, Angels, Bookssss, Day of Judgement (accountable to deeds, heaven, hell).
AND
Action---Good deeds and bad Deeds

The way to Paradise is through mercy of God who Multiplies good deeds based on intention and action. Prophet said in hadith "Your actions will be based on your INTENTION and everyone will have what they intended...(Bukhari).

Prophet said anyone who has invented something in this religion it will not be accepted (hadith). So you must do the action the CORRECT way. The Quran says "I have perfected your religion and chosen Islam as your (deen) way of living"

Prophet said "No one of you will enter Paradise through his good works." They said: "Not even you, O Messenger of God?" "Not even I," he replied, "unless God cover me with His grace and mercy. Therefore be strong, and morning and evening, nay every moment, try to do good."

Finally, the Quran challenges the non-believers to produce a Quran like it with its eloquence, meaning, and truthfulness without contradicitons.

[ICE]

The first part 16:61 shows the mercy of God on his creation. But because God has mercy on his creation some deeds are overlooked.

Quran says sura 103 "By the passage of time. Man is in loss except those who BELIEVE AND do righteous deeds. And encourage each other to the truth. And encourage each other to patience."

So you need both belief that there is One God, All Prophets/messengers, Angels, Bookssss, Day of Judgement (accountable to deeds, heaven, hell).
AND
Action---Good deeds and bad Deeds

The way to Paradise is through mercy of God who Multiplies good deeds based on intention and action. Prophet said in hadith "Your actions will be based on your INTENTION and everyone will have what they intended...(Bukhari).

Prophet said anyone who has invented something in this religion it will not be accepted (hadith). So you must do the action the CORRECT way. The Quran says "I have perfected your religion and chosen Islam as your (deen) way of living"

Prophet said "No one of you will enter Paradise through his good works." They said: "Not even you, O Messenger of God?" "Not even I," he replied, "unless God cover me with His grace and mercy. Therefore be strong, and morning and evening, nay every moment, try to do good."

Finally, the Quran challenges the believers to produce a Quran like it with its eloquence, meaning, and truthfulness without contradicitons.

god is perfect no? can good mingle with evil? a god who overlooks sin is not perfect and is NOT my god. sin is sin and there must be a punishment for it.

you say the quran has no contradictions. heres some.

What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

# Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).

# The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?

1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

# Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?

1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).

[MasterMind]

so the quran says believe in the bible but you say you dont? hmm intersting..

Ice Man I believe in the Bible...It comes from the word Bibilios ...which mean books. I believe in the books that revelead to man...But now that the Quran has come it has come to clear up the misunderstanding and clear it up for ALL of us. Islam cam 1400 years ago to clear up any doubts and say the truth about who God really is and what he wants form his creation. The Bible is corrupted as agreed by your scholars and mine....so it is just the person who blindly follows and gives money to the money hungry "church" that preach them false things....You should give your money to the poor rather than the corrupt church.

[tactful mcbee]

Ice Man I believe in the Bible...It comes from the word Bibilios ...which mean books. I believe in the books that revelead to man...But now that the Quran has come it has come to clear up the misunderstanding and clear it up for ALL of us. Islam cam 1400 years ago to clear up any doubts and say the truth about who God really is and what he wants form his creation. The Bible is corrupted as agreed by your scholars and mine....so it is just the person who blindly follows and gives money to the money hungry "church" that preach them false things....You should give your money to the poor rather than the corrupt church.

the bible comes before the quran. if it is gods word then it can not change. and if god gives a revelation it must be in complete agreement of what he has said in the past. and if you say the bible is correct than the quran can't contridict the bible.

sura 11:42-43 contradicts genesis6-7 by saying that noah had a son who died in the flood, sura 3:41 contradicts luke when it says that zechariah was speechless for 3 days luke 1:18-20. sura 61:6 claims muhammad fulfills prophesy of deuteronomy 18:15-18 and john 14:16, but deuteronomy 34:10says And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face. muhammad never met god but was visited by an angel gabriel and he is not of isreal but of ishmael

[ICE]

Ice Man I believe in the Bible...It comes from the word Bibilios ...which mean books. I believe in the books that revelead to man...But now that the Quran has come it has come to clear up the misunderstanding and clear it up for ALL of us. Islam cam 1400 years ago to clear up any doubts and say the truth about who God really is and what he wants form his creation. The Bible is corrupted as agreed by your scholars and mine....so it is just the person who blindly follows and gives money to the money hungry "church" that preach them false things....You should give your money to the poor rather than the corrupt church.

thats sounds a whole lot the book of morman to me... anywho so the quran says that the bible is valid but you disagree? well someones wrong who is it?

umm i highly doubt that christian scholars would say that the bible is "corrupted beyond use". GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE. oh and tell me who your quoting.

also how do you know i enjoy giving my money to a money hungry "church"? its like youve been following me!! oh no wait no i dont do that.. thats right i was confusing myself with someone who WASNT a christian lol. just because people try and use Christianity to make $$$ doesnt mean anything.:D some people use islam to promote wars against terrorists does that mean anything about islam?

EDIT: FYI i hope no one takes some of my jokes seriously. i dont intend to offend i just want to keep this light ya know?

[MasterMind]

thats sounds a whole lot the book of morman to me... anywho so the quran says that the bible is valid but you disagree? well someones wrong who is it?

umm i highly doubt that christian scholars would say that the bible is "corrupted beyond use". GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE. oh and tell me who your quoting.

also how do you know i enjoy giving my money to a money hungry "church"? its like youve been following me!! oh no wait no i dont do that.. thats right i was confusing myself with someone who WASNT a christian lol. just because people try and use Christianity to make $$$ doesnt mean anything.:D some people use islam to promote wars against terrorists does that mean anything about islam?

EDIT: FYI i hope no one takes some of my jokes seriously. i dont intend to offend i just want to keep this light ya know?

The Roman Catholic Church has published a statement says all the Bible is not true. Search it in google if you don't believe me. It was said on something called the "Gift of scriptures." In it is says that Christians should not expect total accuracy in the Bible...so that is my proof.

[tactful mcbee]

the catholic church is not christian so your proof is still opinion

[ICE]

umm the roman catholic church is not christian. i have explained this time and time again and im not doing it again. catholics added an entire new section to the bible so i prolly wouldnt listen to their opinion on the topic...

[gdf]

you shouldn't choose to not listen to catholics, you'd get pissed if nobody listened to you.

[extreemiL]

dont flame or leave.
I'm not flaming, what i said is the truth

[SSaxdude]

ok so jesus was born of a virgin. he lived a perfect sinless life and performed miracles. islam agrees no? then he was crucified. that is WIDELY accepted by even atheists.

Not quite. I saw an episode of Penn and Teller Bullshit! (they are atheists) about the bible and they were debating weither Jesus was real. They also mentioned that there were other accounts of "saviors" at the time of Jesus(but not mentioned in the bible.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth

This is pretty funny:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_claimed_to_be_Jesus

[ICE]

""Jesus as myth" refers to the idea that the narrative of Jesus in the gospels may be considered as part of Christian mythology, and shows parallels to mystery religions of the Roman Empire such as Mithraism, and the myth of rebirth deities. Study of such elements is often, but not exclusively, associated with a skeptical position about the historicity of Jesus.

The theory was first proposed by historian Bruno Bauer in the 19th century, but is now supported by a small minority of scholars, often outside the historical discipline. Biblical scholars and historians of classical antiquity reject the thesis"

um yeah. supported by a small minority of scholars. thats from your own link..

[MasterMind]

umm the roman catholic church is not christian. i have explained this time and time again and im not doing it again. catholics added an entire new section to the bible so i prolly wouldnt listen to their opinion on the topic...

Concerning the KJV of Bible it scholars stated that they

"As the marginal notes indicate, the King James translators did not regard their work as perfect or inspired, but they did consider it to be a trustworthy reproduction of God's holy Word." [The King James Version Defended pg. 216]

This distrust lead to the first major revision of the text of the KJV, this revision was done By Dr. Samuel Ward and John Bois, [Two of the original translators of the King James Version]. It was a attempt to correct the many errors of the original 1611 translation, This first major revision was the 1629 edition of the Bible printed in Cambridge. This revision was completed just eighteen years after the translation.

In this site it professors tell you KJV has defects....
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/defects_in_the_kjv.htm

The original aramic is no where to be found. It was translated into sometime ago into Hebrew, Greek, and finally english.

[ICE]

Concerning the KJV of Bible it scholars stated that they

"As the marginal notes indicate, the King James translators did not regard their work as perfect or inspired, but they did consider it to be a trustworthy reproduction of God's holy Word." [The King James Version Defended pg. 216]

who are you quoting? although its not like it matters anyways since we use the HEBREW BIBLE. ei the one before it was translated to english.


This distrust lead to the first major revision of the text of the KJV, this revision was done By Dr. Samuel Ward and John Bois, [Two of the original translators of the King James Version]. It was a attempt to correct the many errors of the original 1611 translation, This first major revision was the 1629 edition of the Bible printed in Cambridge. This revision was completed just eighteen years after the translation.

good thing we use the HEBREW BIBLE..


In this site it professors tell you KJV has defects....
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/defects_in_the_kjv.htm

The original aramic is no where to be found. It was translated into sometime ago into Hebrew, Greek, and finally english.

um you do realize that site says CATHOLIC apologetics right?

[tactful mcbee]

Concerning the KJV of Bible it scholars stated that they

"As the marginal notes indicate, the King James translators did not regard their work as perfect or inspired, but they did consider it to be a trustworthy reproduction of God's holy Word." [The King James Version Defended pg. 216]

This distrust lead to the first major revision of the text of the KJV, this revision was done By Dr. Samuel Ward and John Bois, [Two of the original translators of the King James Version]. It was a attempt to correct the many errors of the original 1611 translation, This first major revision was the 1629 edition of the Bible printed in Cambridge. This revision was completed just eighteen years after the translation.

In this site it professors tell you KJV has defects....
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/defects_in_the_kjv.htm

The original aramic is no where to be found. It was translated into sometime ago into Hebrew, Greek, and finally english.

Translation is the interpretation of the meaning of a text in one language (the "source text") and the production, in another language, of an equivalent text (the "target text," or "translation") that communicates the same message.

the word translation tells you its not the perfect word. therefore we study aramic and hebrew.

Biblical Hebrew contains 22 letters, as noted in Psalm 119, all of which are consonants. The alphabet and language remained pure until the Babylonian exile in 587 BC, when spoken Hebrew came under the influence of other languages, particularly Aramaic. Aramaic became the prevailing language, or "lingua franca" of the entire Middle East from about 800 BC to 400 AD. Jesus and his Apostles spoke Aramaic.

therefore get off the subject of translations because we use the original so your argument is pointless

[gdf]

hold on, going back a bit...how exactly is it scientifically possible that jesus was born of a virgin?

[bullhead]

Its just like that southpark episode. Y'know the one about cartmans mum? Smae principal...

[gdf]

mary was a hemaphrodite, i see....

[bullhead]

aye, thats the word. Silly me... thanks bro. :)

[tactful mcbee]

we believe God spoke everything into existence, every molecule, atom, particle. yet people can't seem to gather that God can not speak ONE Y CHROMOSOME into existence( by the way thats all that is required to produce a child in a woman).

irony is the word i'm looking for i believe. lol

[gdf]

god never made anything, never mind bang a chick without penetration. sounds like a rapist to me...

[LilSwish722]

god never made anything, never mind bang a chick without penetration. sounds like a rapist to me...

Now was that really necessary. That was actually offensive. And God doesn't have to in order to make someone give birth to his son. What your talking about is a SCIENTIFIC view. God, by no means, needs to be scientific. That's the beauty of God. Whatever He wants to happen, he allows. Nothing happens without a reason.

Sorry I haven't been on this thread in a while. I was busy with school.

[ICE]

god never made anything, never mind bang a chick without penetration. sounds like a rapist to me...

man that was meant to hurt peoples feeling and make people mad. thats the kinda post the causes a loss of respect.

[Accordion]

man that was meant to hurt peoples feeling and make people mad. thats the kinda post the causes a loss of respect.

while the language was not tasteful, others shouldnt overlook that is clearly one persons opinion.

much like most of this thread.

[tactful mcbee]

while the language was not tasteful, others shouldnt overlook that is clearly one persons opinion.

much like most of this thread.

most of what we have said has been factual evidence and logic, not meaningless opinions. we have given an argument over the reasons of our faith in creation and the sustaining of life, in which their is NO proof to counter it. we have answered all questions, yet others have still neglected our questions for their beliefs.

by the way, saying the God you dedicated your life to is a simple rapist is beyond the point of opinion. it is malice verbal attacks, and if he was accusing someone of this, he would be charged with slander and possible jail time. so back off

[Cap'n 1time]

most of what we have said has been factual evidence and logic, not meaningless opinions. we have given an argument over the reasons of our faith in creation and the sustaining of life, in which their is NO proof to counter it. we have answered all questions, yet others have still neglected our questions for their beliefs.


I dont think logic is the best word, stubborn faith. perhaps (which is apparently admirable trait in religion) Nothing God did or supposedly did is logical by human standards and no one should pretend to give a logical answer based upon thousands of year of history that we know much less than we would like to about.

You only believe what you do because you were brought up that way, and surely you would be different if you were born under different circumstances. If you were brought up with different teachings you would be just as defensive about those teachings. - That is logical.

[ICE]

I dont think logic is the best word, stubborn faith. perhaps (which is apparently admirable trait in religion) Nothing God did or supposedly did is logical by human standards and no one should pretend to give a logical answer based upon thousands of year of history that we know much less than we would like to about.

You only believe what you do because you were brought up that way, and surely you would be different if you were born under different circumstances. If you were brought up with different teachings you would be just as defensive about those teachings. - That is logical.

i wasnt aware that you were present as myself and tactful were growing up cap'n. oh wait you werent. if you were you would know that neither of us were christians until fairly recently. im not even sure what to say about your first paragraph as i can make sense of it. your point is that g-d isnt logical but you give no reasons for it.

it is impossible to debate opinion so give facts.

[bullhead]

You give "facts"! all I see are quotes from a book from you guys!

[Cap'n 1time]

i wasnt aware that you were present as myself and tactful were growing up cap'n. oh wait you werent. if you were you would know that neither of us were christians until fairly recently. im not even sure what to say about your first paragraph as i can make sense of it. your point is that g-d isnt logical but you give no reasons for it.

it is impossible to debate opinion so give facts.

Forgive me, I assumed you were just like every Christian (like myself when I was younger) that went to church from a very early age and had these ideas pumped into me. Apparently you became a Christian without any outside influence (they exist, but they are extremely rare from my experience).

I suppose each of us have a reality. our individual realities are how we perceive things, that is to say, not exactly the way THEY ARE but the way we see things and the way we think they are. Who knows, you might be correct. Maybe the god you worship does exist, but I havnt seen any logical evidence that he exists either other than an ancient book that are reaccounts of reaccounts that happened over thousands of years. My point is, you cant really argue based upon logic either.

[ICE]

You give "facts"! all I see are quotes from a book from you guys!

has anyone proven the book wrong? you guys have tried but the only things youve come up with are quotes from catholics and changing red to reed which is completely irrelevant.

my "perception" is that no one has proven us wrong or even given one reason we're wrong other than "god is fake" or "thats illogical". i think the issue here is your perception. you dont HONESTLY want a god and therefore you shut out the possibility of him.


Maybe the god you worship does exist, but I havnt seen any logical evidence that he exists either other than an ancient book that are reaccounts of reaccounts that happened over thousands of years. My point is, you cant really argue based upon logic either.

your saying that old books are wrong? the bible is easily one of the most historically accurate books we have. the only serious debates on the bible are on interpretation of actual events ie. was it god or coincidence. saying that all we have is accounts from a historically accurate book isnt saying much..

[Accordion]

has anyone proven the book wrong? you guys have tried but the only things youve come up with are quotes from catholics and changing red to reed which is completely irrelevant.

my "perception" is that no one has proven us wrong or even given one reason we're wrong other than "god is fake" or "thats illogical". i think the issue here is your perception. you dont HONESTLY want a god and therefore you shut out the possibility of him.

has anyone proven the book 'true'?

or more importantly has anyone tried?

all judgment is inherently void due to its origin
all judgement is inherited!

but surely a view with most sources of greater breadth would be more universal than a view from a single window
– does a person who is locked in a room, with only one window have the wider view than a person who has a window on every wall of the room?

perhaps having infinite space to move is not such an advantage if you can only follow one path?
surely a small space which looks onto all else is more benificial...even if you become stuck as you marvel at the view!

[ICE]

has anyone proven the book 'true'?

or more importantly has anyone tried?

all judgment is inherently void due to its origin
all judgement is inherited!

but surely a view with most sources of greater breadth would be more universal than a view from a single window
– does a person who is locked in a room, with only one window have the wider view than a person who has a window on every wall of the room?

perhaps having infinite space to move is not such an advantage if you can only follow one path?
surely a small space which looks onto all else is more benificial...even if you become stuck as you marvel at the view!

im not sure what your trying to say due to all the abstract metaphors. if your saying im closed minded your wrong. close minded would be completely closing out all other choices besides christianity which i have not done. i have studied most religions and made my choice. i simply wish to input my knowledge on the topic which i have. i didnt intend to be attacked over and over and told how dumb i am. i only wanted to input my opinion and evidently im not alone.

[Accordion]

im not sure what your trying to say due to all the abstract metaphors. if your saying im closed minded your wrong. close minded would be completely closing out all other choices besides christianity which i have not done. i have studied most religions and made my choice. i simply wish to input my knowledge on the topic which i have. i didnt intend to be attacked over and over and told how dumb i am. i only wanted to input my opinion and evidently im not alone.

i have not called you dumb, though you have to me!

is not a selection another way of refusal?

it used to be that only regular baked beans existed. then it was possible to obtain mexican stlye baked beans, and tikka beans among others. i was more than happy with regular baked beans, they were good! i tried the mexican beans and they were good! i tried the tikka beans and they were good!

now i eat many types of baked beans! and all are good!

of course many baked beans have unfortunate effects, so i dont only eat beans, i eat many things.

and all are very good!

especially when mixed!

[gdf]

well done accordion, you make good, educated and sensible points. i angered people with my hilariously "distasteful" language. someone tried to neg rep me but i only got blue! AHAHAHAHAHA!!! what irritates me in this thread is that the christians say the atheists are just saying opinions, well religion is one huge opinion is it not? what you say is opinion. instead of trying to provide feeble evidence from an old tome, the arguments against you are that you must use logic, "how can an all singing all dancing eternal being that is bigger than the universe and can't be felt and is invisible and CONTROLS our lives and....... (2 hours and 30 pages later) left his own people to DIE possibly exist." it defies all logic and destroys every scientific theory since humans came into existance.

[ICE]

i have not called you dumb, though you have to me!

is not a selection another way of refusal?

it used to be that only regular baked beans existed. then it was possible to obtain mexican stlye baked beans, and tikka beans among others. i was more than happy with regular baked beans, they were good! i tried the mexican beans and they were good! i tried the tikka beans and they were good!

now i eat many types of baked beans! and all are good!

of course many baked beans have unfortunate effects, so i dont only eat beans, i eat many things.

and all are very good!

especially when mixed!

when did i call you dumb? if i did im sure it was sarcasm.
anywho if your trying to tell me to accept all religions as equal then dont. truth is not relative.



well done accordion, you make good, educated and sensible points. i angered people with my hilariously "distasteful" language. someone tried to neg rep me but i only got blue! AHAHAHAHAHA!!! what irritates me in this thread is that the christians say the atheists are just saying opinions, well religion is one huge opinion is it not? what you say is opinion. instead of trying to provide feeble evidence from an old tome, the arguments against you are that you must use logic, "how can an all singing all dancing eternal being that is bigger than the universe and can't be felt and is invisible and CONTROLS our lives and....... (2 hours and 30 pages later) left his own people to DIE possibly exist." it defies all logic and destroys every scientific theory since humans came into existance.

you clearly dont understand so im not going to show you where youre wrong. i have tried and you dont get it. youve tried and i get it but its still wrong so why dont we both stop trying?

[gdf]

nah i like trying to turn religious people around onto the one holy path of the giant frog monster in the religion of Spawnhammudity. hail the frog.I found some really old, incosistent book and i'm taking it too seriously. the frog almighty will show me the way and the only way to have the afterlife is to dedicate yourself to the mighty fr-g. then you will go to the mighty swamp and live amongst his other spawn. His greatest spawn was the mighty Spawnhammud and he died for us 2000 years ago. the frogly book is 98% textually pure and the frog monster is immense. He created all life, He sees all. you will burrrrrrn in froggy hell if you don't follow his ways.

::rofl::

[Accordion]

truth is not relative.


as i have already explained, truth is impossible because we as humans are not capable of removing our reflections from our own gaze. all we see, speak, hear, think, do, is through ourselves and can never be anything more.

i pick fault not with you, your peers, your religion, nor anyone. only with the assumption that we must have boundaries to progress.

more importantly, why should such progression be invasive and expanding, the progress along a point though itself will surely bring more pleasure?

surely when so many religions are based upon the foundation that humans are not the prime form, should enable its followers to see that they can never understand matters which do not eminate from themselves, and because of which they can never be more than human.

Even if you believe you can see past yourself, and through the whole of the society which cages us all,
you say truth is not relative, so truth cannot have many forms. so why only look in one place; where your chances of finding truth are 1 in infinite.

[ICE]

as i have already explained, truth is impossible because we as humans are not capable of removing our reflections from our own gaze. all we see, speak, hear, think, do, is through ourselves and can never be anything more.

i pick fault not with you, your peers, your religion, nor anyone. only with the assumption that we must have boundaries to progress.

more importantly, why should such progression be invasive and expanding, the progress along a point though itself will surely bring more pleasure?

surely when so many religions are based upon the foundation that humans are not the prime form, should enable its followers to see that they can never understand matters which do not eminate from themselves, and because of which they can never be more than human.

Even if you believe you can see past yourself, and through the whole of the society which cages us all,
you say truth is not relative, so truth cannot have many forms. so why only look in one place; where your chances of finding truth are 1 in infinite.

if you wanna believe that your are nothing go right ahead but dont try and convince me that im nothing too. youve made your point. i disagree but you still made it.

[Accordion]

if you wanna believe that your are nothing go right ahead but dont try and convince me that im nothing too. youve made your point. i disagree but you still made it.

i clearly have not made any point at all. and it is very clear you do not understand and do not want to.

[gdf]

we are all nothing. that is the point, we all try to make our small contributions to life and the continuation of the existence of our race and be more than nothing. few have achieved this so far.

[ICE]

i clearly have not made any point at all. and it is very clear you do not understand and do not want to.

so your saying you typed all that and never made a point? just wasting our time? also if you didnt make a point how could i not want to understand? i mean i cant understand a point you didnt make therefore i also coudnt choose to disregard a point you didnt make.


we are all nothing. that is the point, we all try to make our small contributions to life and the continuation of the existence of our race and be more than nothing. few have achieved this so far.

thats where your wrong. if you are nothing you can never achieve something so great that you become something. if we are all here because something randomly exploded billions of years ago and all this just fell together then you are worthless. nothing you can ever do will ever be worth anything. anything you ever feel is nothing.

[gdf]

then who cares? just accept that and move on.

[Accordion]

i mean i cant understand a point you didnt make therefore i also coudnt choose to disregard a point you didnt make.
.

exactly
i didnt make the point you seem to think i did, therefore you cant understand it.

but you also refuse to try to understand what i did say

in what way can me talking of progression lead you to believe i think i am nothing??? how can nothing progress

i merely accept my humanity over my imagination, knowing both with eat each other, at least that is what myself leads me to believe!
is it not apparant i wish to progress not for others, but for myself, as that is all i have been, currently am and will continue to be

[ICE]

then who cares? just accept that and move on.

no comment

[tactful mcbee]

How do you respond to someone's claim that the Bible is not inspired? Is there a way to prove inspiration or, at least, intelligently present evidence for its inspiration? The answer is "Yes!" One of the best ways to prove inspiration is by examining prophecy. There are many religious books in the world that have many good things to say. But only the Bible has fulfilled prophecies--with more fulfillments to come. The Bible has never been wrong in the past, and it won't be wrong in the future. It claims inspiration from God (2 Tim. 3:16). Since God is the creator of all things (Isaiah 44:24), then He is also the creator of time. It is under His control. Only God, then, would always be right about what is in the future, our future.

Fulfilled prophecy is strong evidence that God is the author of the Bible because when you look at the mathematical odds of prophecy being fulfilled, you quickly see a design, a purpose, and a guiding hand behind the Bible. If just one prophecy failed, then we would know that God is not the true God, because the creator of all things, which includes time, would not be wrong about predicting the future. Deut. 18:22 says, "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously," (NIV). Isaiah 46:9-10 says, "Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

One approach to use with an unbeliever is to turn to Psalm 22 and read verses 12-18. This is a detailed description of the crucifixion--1000 years before Jesus was born. After you read the section ask him what it was about. He'll say, "The crucifixion of Jesus." Then respond with something like, "You're right. This is about the crucifixion. But it was written 1000 years before Jesus was born. And on top of that, crucifixion hadn't even been invented yet. How do you think something like this could happen?" After a brief discussion, you could show him (or her) a few other prophecies like where Jesus' birthplace was prophesied (Micah 5:2), that He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), that His side would be pierced (Zech. 12:10), etc.
The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.

"Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."

Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0.
The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident."

thats why

[Accordion]

One approach to use with an unbeliever is to turn to Psalm 22 and read verses 12-18. This is a detailed description of the crucifixion--1000 years before Jesus was born. After you read the section ask him what it was about. He'll say, "The crucifixion of Jesus." Then respond with something like, "You're right. This is about the crucifixion. But it was written 1000 years before Jesus was born. And on top of that, crucifixion hadn't even been invented yet. How do you think something like this could happen?" After a brief discussion, you could show him (or her) a few other prophecies like where Jesus' birthplace was prophesied (Micah 5:2), that He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), that His side would be pierced (Zech. 12:10), etc.
The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.

"Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."

Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0.
The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident."

thats why

anyone who looks to change others, before self-contemplation for their own gain is surely deluded

and please, how can you possibly know when such writings were originally produced?

your fear which makes you select ONE path, is that of being meaningless, so you choose a path which enables you to say to others " you are wrong"

anyone who turns to others to change before themselves must think themselves too highly. a personel god perhaps?

[tactful mcbee]

anyone who looks to change others, before self-contemplation for their own gain is surely deluded

and please, how can you possibly know when such writings were originally produced?

your fear which makes you select ONE path, is that of being meaningless, so you choose a path which enables you to say to others " you are wrong"

anyone who turns to others to change before themselves must think themselves too highly. a personel god perhaps?

for one its called the dead sea scrolls on age of scripture.

second, i'm not trying to change anyone. My God commands me to reveal you the option God has given everyone. If you don't want to accept it thats your problem.

third, your "all paths lead the same" bull crap theology makes no sense. each religion contridicts the others. If all truth is relative, then the statement "All truth is relative" would be absolutely true. If it is absolutely true, then not all things are relative and the statement that "All truth is relative" is false. The statement "There are no absolute truths" is an absolute statement which is supposed to be true. Therefore it is an absolute truth and "There are no absolute truths" is false.
If there are no absolute truths, then you cannot believe anything absolutely at all, including that there are no absolute truths. Therefore, nothing could be really true for you - including relativism.

fourth, I don't think of myself as anything. we are saved by grace. without grace my fate is the same as yours(unless you repent) because we all deserve it. self righteousness does not exist without the messiah.

and a added note about the way i was raised...i was an agnostic( means i did not believe in God and would argue His existence. and i had better arguements than the ones we have been give). and i don't listen to brain washed pastors as well, so don't go there.

oh yeah

[F9zDark]

as for this just being folklore built up over time i will simply bring up this one fact. the bible is widely known as a reliable source of info on actual events in its time.

Archaeologists have found little, to no evidence of any of the bible's claims. And scientists have used physics, meteorology, and common sense to find reasonable explanations for the plagues that afflicted Egypt and even found a possible explanation for the parting of the Red Sea (low sea levels, and high winds...)

I am not denouncing your faith; believe in what you wish. But the bible is hardly reliable. The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans are by far the most reliable sources in Western Antiquity.

[F9zDark]

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident."

thats why

HAHAH, WOW. That is just hilarious! There are more electrons than that in a tablespoon of water! And this is why I pay no self-proclaimed religionist (thanks Anton Szandor LaVey for that term) any mind...

[ICE]

Archaeologists have found little, to no evidence of any of the bible's claims. And scientists have used physics, meteorology, and common sense to find reasonable explanations for the plagues that afflicted Egypt and even found a possible explanation for the parting of the Red Sea (low sea levels, and high winds...)

I am not denouncing your faith; believe in what you wish. But the bible is hardly reliable. The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans are by far the most reliable sources in Western Antiquity.

what are you talking about? no evidence?

as for the plagues and stuff did you not read any of this?

i believe that god works through science. the sea parted fine. was it random? no. it couldve been wind.

i made you mad in that ps3 thing and your trying to get back at me here. how immature.

your statement proved nothing.

EDIT: just because its in the bible doesnt mean its all fairy's and unicorns. its not.

god works though science and religion explains it.

[ICE]

HAHAH, WOW. That is just hilarious! There are more electrons than that in a tablespoon of water! And this is why I pay no self-proclaimed religionist (thanks Anton Szandor LaVey for that term) any mind...

you pointed out a typo and disregarded that part of his post that mattered. if you disregard anyone who makes a typo i bet your lonely.

[F9zDark]

what are you talking about? no evidence?

as for the plagues and stuff did you not read any of this?

i believe that god works through science. the sea parted fine. was it random? no. it couldve been wind.

i made you mad in that ps3 thing and your trying to get back at me here. how immature.

your statement proved nothing.

First off, I not mad about the PS3 thing; that was total ownage on my part, sorry to say.

Proved nothing? So tell me, did we evolve from apes or did God make us in his own image? The bible would have you believe that God created us in his image, as religionists past and present don't want to entertain the idea that God could look like an ape...

And this is inherently the problem with religion entirely. People pick and choose what they want to believe as it suits them and then say their way is the only way.

Religion only strives to divide people. And lets not get into the Dark Ages, or worst the Holocaust (Hitler used Passion plays to get his people his people's hate for the Jews...)

Hell better yet, name one thing religion has done that has benefited all of man kind? Because frankly, I can't think of anything.

[F9zDark]

you pointed out a typo and disregarded that part of his post that mattered. if you disregard anyone who makes a typo i bet your lonely.

Typo? He quoted a religionist, if you read his post. And thats hardly a typo; thats just beyond even common sense. Yet, its something typical of a religionist, disregard all the correct, verifiable, observable information for something that helps prove their point.

Just look at the tactics used to determine the Earth's age in the whole Young Earth movement...

[ICE]

First off, I not mad about the PS3 thing; that was total ownage on my part, sorry to say.

Proved nothing? So tell me, did we evolve from apes or did God make us in his own image? The bible would have you believe that God created us in his image, as religionists past and present don't want to entertain the idea that God could look like an ape...

And this is inherently the problem with religion entirely. People pick and choose what they want to believe as it suits them and then say their way is the only way.

Religion only strives to divide people. And lets not get into the Dark Ages, or worst the Holocaust (Hitler used Passion plays to get his people his people's hate for the Jews...)

Hell better yet, name one thing religion has done that has benefited all of man kind? Because frankly, I can't think of anything.

guess what? as i have said before evolution and christianity can co-exist.

the 7 "days" were written in shorthand and most likely meant 7 time segments each worth an unset number of time. man wasnt created until the 6th "day" which is quite late no?

would it not be a miracle for man to evolve into gods image late in history?

religion divides the ignorant and angry. people divide people.

[ICE]

Typo? He quoted a religionist, if you read his post. And thats hardly a typo; thats just beyond even common sense. Yet, its something typical of a religionist, disregard all the correct, verifiable, observable information for something that helps prove their point.

Just look at the tactics used to determine the Earth's age in the whole Young Earth movement...

so he quoted a typo? OH MY GOD NO!!

young earth again? man you dont listen do you? young earth isnt right. who are you preaching to?

[F9zDark]

guess what? as i have said before evolution and christianity can co-exist.

the 7 "days" were written in shorthand and most likely meant 7 time segments each worth an unset number of time. man wasnt created until the 6th "day" which is quite late no?

would it not be a miracle for man to evolve into gods image late in history?

It is possible. But how many other religionists share your belief in that? And thats the problem, I have, with religion. People interpret it as they see fit. For instance, Islam shuns violence, just like Christianity does. Yet there are groups of Muslim who interpreted the Qur'an to allow them to us Islamic Jihad.

If there was only one religion, one God, one belief, one system, one interpretation, religion might have some merit.

[ICE]

It is possible. But how many other religionists share your belief in that? And thats the problem, I have, with religion. People interpret it as they see fit. For instance, Islam shuns violence, just like Christianity does. Yet there are groups of Muslim who interpreted the Qur'an to allow them to us Islamic Jihad.

If there was only one religion, one God, one belief, one system, one interpretation, religion might have some merit.

so anything that can be interpreted in different ways in wrong?

your logic rules out everything from being true.

you obviously believe that truth is not a constant. that its not here for us to find. i disagree and thats the core issue.

other then your belief that ps3 doesnt blow you seem nice enough and i want this to end well. all we have to do is agree that we disagree on that one point and our conflict is gone.

[acn010]

to be honest.. christianity has been in existance since it was born... yet witnesess(followers) wrote their own testaments. Also researchers had discover new OLD testaments which is amazing and also those testaments relates tot teh history of jesus

[F9zDark]

so anything that can be interpreted in different ways in wrong?

your logic rules out everything from being true.

you obviously believe that truth is not a constant. that its not here for us to find. i disagree and thats the core issue.


My logic is not the issue at hand. For instance take a look at science. When someone perceives something unknown to them, they may interpret it differently as someone else who perceived the same thing.

In science there is always a moment of interpretation; the forming of a hypothesis is this very thing. Then comes experimenting and testing to prove the hypothesis accurate or inaccurate. Maybe the initial interpretation was correct all along, maybe it was not, but in the case of it not being correct, other interpretations are tested until the truth is found.

Maybe the same can be said for religion, that people are testing their interpretations to see if they are accurate; I have long believed that religion, initially, stemmed from perception of unknown happenings (perhaps that is why many older, polytheistic religions believed in gods controlling the sun, moon, rivers, harvest, nature, etc)

The only problem is, interpretations in science never results in bloodshed or death by other scientists with differing interpretations. Which is why, I do not agree with denominations of the same religion. That has nothing to do with my logic.


young earth again? man you dont listen do you? young earth isnt right. who are you preaching to?

I am well aware that you do not agree with young earth, and neither do I. I was merely using it as a noteworthy and evidenced example of how some religious groups use pseudo-science to prove their interpretations.



other then your belief that ps3 doesnt blow you seem nice enough and i want this to end well. all we have to do is agree that we disagree on that one point and our conflict is gone.

I am not debating to make enemies; quite the contrary. I have found that a good debate only makes better friends. Mind you, I respect you for your beliefs (on the subject of religion or on the Wii). But that doesn't mean we can't have a good argument about it :)

[ICE]

In science there is always a moment of interpretation; the forming of a hypothesis is this very thing. Then comes experimenting and testing to prove the hypothesis accurate or inaccurate. Maybe the initial interpretation was correct all along, maybe it was not, but in the case of it not being correct, other interpretations are tested until the truth is found.

Maybe the same can be said for religion, that people are testing their interpretations to see if they are accurate; I have long believed that religion, initially, stemmed from perception of unknown happenings (perhaps that is why many older, polytheistic religions believed in gods controlling the sun, moon, rivers, harvest, nature, etc)


i started of atheist, then baptist, then baptist who no one agreed with, then christian. thats where i am now. i dont claim any title other than christian. my aim is to know the what im supposed to be doing and to do it.

most teachings you here nowadays in churches and on tv are total bull crap. we are to put our faith and knowledge through the refiner's fire over and over to find out if we're right. thats what i am doing.

i am not settled on my beliefs and im open to new ones. its just that ive heard atheism before and ive even lived it.

it is my firm belief that the correct beliefs are backed up by science and i aim to find out if im right.

[F9zDark]

I was born an Episcopal, and as I got older, I became an atheist. In 2003 I started to going to a reformed church, but I couldn't stand it. Seeing all those people praying and preaching the words of God, yet knowing what they are really like on the inside.

So I left the church with only a belief in 'a higher power', whether its God or not, who knows, but I do know this, I could never join another organized religion or denomination again.

[ICE]

i think to deny that "someone" made all this is naive.
just as to deny the religion and science are can exist as one is also naive.