The Spirituality Thread

[Kaiser]

The purpose of this thread is to keep all the arguing of a Theologians guild in one place. No flaming or bigotry. Argue and discuss in a civil manner.

I'll start where things left off.


i know your a mod and all and if i offended you im sorry but lets face it. juddianic messiasm(christianity in its first form) and catholicism are very different. if you want me to explain i will but you clearly find this to be a touchy topic so i wont unless you gimme the green light.

Go for it. I'm not going to ban you for arguing against me. That would be an abuse of my power.

Are you claiming to be a part of the original Judeo-Christian belief system?

All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholics. Thats a simple way to compare each.


i still disagree. the only parts that are figurative are the parables and some of the prophecies. i mean the prophecies came true but the things the prophet saw were analogies for something.

Believe me historically, the old testement is quite "off" on a lot of things and has some pretty bad stuff in it to take literally. I mean you can't possibly take the story of Adam and Eve as a literal and completely historical event and consider yourself "enlightened."

Plus to understand the bible literally is fundamentalism. Fundamentalism IMO opinion is the worst facet of Christianity and Islam.




Heading to bed here. Give me a chance to reply back tommorow. :)

[ICE]

first lets see what it is to be a christian. to be a christian is to accept jesus as the mediator between yourself and G-d. to accept his actions on the cross and what occurred after as your personal atonement for your sins. however, salvation without works is dead. by that it means if one is truely saved they will look at what he did for you personally and you will act like a christian as best you can for him. if you dont your probably not saved.

catholics believe that your saved by being baptized even though the bible clearly states that we are saved by grace trough faith not by works. water baptism is a work.

Romans 6:3-5 speaks to us of Christ's work and our public identification with it. In that ancient world of religious plurality in Roman gods, in the strict Laws of the Jewish system, and in the gods of different cultures, to be baptized was to make a bold statement of commitment to Christ as the risen Lord. It was not the water that saved, but faith in Christ and His work.

if your not saved you not a christian and if most catholics are relying on being sprinkled with water to get to heaven then.... well you see where im going.

before you guys start bashing me i asked permission to do ^^^that.

EDIT: oh and about that you cant take adam and eve literally... just like ive said about 50 times now you have to learn what parts are analogies/parables and which parts are literal. you have to look at the hebrew or greek translations to see the wording to determine that sometimes though. It is literally true where it is intended to be literally true, figurative where it is intended to be figurative, poetic where is meant to be poetic, etc. Therefore, we must examine the wide diversity of biblical writing using logic, contextual analysis, etc. Do I believe that God created the earth in the order that is described in Chapter 1 of Genesis? Yes I do.

[Kaiser]

first lets see what it is to be a christian. to be a christian is to accept jesus as the mediator between yourself and God.
Almost ALL Christian churches accept Christ as part of the holy trinity and more then a mere mediator.

Catholicism is also Trinitarian: it believes that, while God is one in nature, essence, and being, this one God exists in three divine persons, each identical with the one essence, whose only distinctions are in their relations to one another: the Father's relationship to the Son, the Son's relationship to the Father, and the relations of both to the Holy Spirit, constitute the one God as a Trinity.

This was accepted by all the original Bishops. Thus in turn it is a common belief shared by any member of a Coptic, Catholic, Orthodox, or Oriental (Antiochan) church. Its also accepted by most Protestant churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed



to accept his actions on the cross and what occurred after as your personal atonement for your sins.

Common ground all true Christians accept.


however, salvation without works is dead. by that it means if one is truely saved they will look at what he did for you personally and you will act like a christian as best you can for him. if you dont your probably not saved.

The concept of charity and working to improve people's lives. Another common belief among real christians.



catholics believe that your saved by being baptized even though the bible clearly states that we are saved by grace trough faith not by works. water baptism is a work.

Romans 6:3-5 speaks to us of Christ's work and our public identification with it. In that ancient world of religious plurality in Roman gods, in the strict Laws of the Jewish system, and in the gods of different cultures, to be baptized was to make a bold statement of commitment to Christ as the risen Lord. It was not the water that saved, but faith in Christ and His work.

Its simply a tradition. A simple act that symbolizes your entry into the church. Your looking far to deep into it. No Catholic priest would say that baptism is the only requirement for salvation.



if your not saved you not a christian and if most catholics are relying on being sprinkled with water to get to heaven then.... well you see where im going.


Again don't make such assumptions, where are you getting these facts?



EDIT: oh and about that you cant take adam and eve literally... just like ive said about 50 times now you have to learn what parts are analogies/parables and which parts are literal. you have to look at the hebrew or greek translations to see the wording to determine that sometimes though. It is literally true where it is intended to be literally true, figurative where it is intended to be figurative, poetic where is meant to be poetic, etc. Therefore, we must examine the wide diversity of biblical writing using logic, contextual analysis, etc. Do I believe that God created the earth in the order that is described in Chapter 1 of Genesis? Yes I do.

Agreed (who are you arguing for?)

This is another example that aids my argument. Interpretting any part of the bible as completely literal would miss the deeper meaning behind the text.

[TeenDev]

sorry to interupt but wasn't this topic posted a while ago....?

[Kaiser]

sorry to interupt but wasn't this topic posted a while ago....?

I've combined them into one to keep things organized.

[TeenDev]

ahh.... got it.... does that mean you are deleting ExcrutionX's thread?

[ICE]

if water baptism isnt required then why do catholics baptize babies? baptism is a practice that is a symbol for accepting christ and babies dont get it. baptizing a baby is completely pointless unless you think its going to do something for them.

also what do catholics call the pope/ priests? i mean how do they address them?

[bullhead]

I still don't see why it keeps posting about its faith. If people want to know about it, would not they research it? Its like the kid whos parent tells it to do a thing, the kid will naturallay rebel and not want to know. Whereas, if the kid finds his own way, he can relate to it in his own way, as opposed to having beliefs shoved at him against his will.

Let people find God for themselves, is my point.

From the other threads, all the non-believers resented you for preaching, you did not convert or convince one person by preaching your beliefs. People will find god in their own time if they want to submit.

By preaching, you are making more people not want to be practicing Christians, which I don't think God would be too appreciative of.

By continuing to preach here, you go against your Lords will, by making souls turn their backs on him.

bullhead.

[Kaiser]

if water baptism isnt required then why do catholics baptize babies? baptism is a practice that is a symbol for accepting christ and babies dont get it. baptizing a baby is completely pointless unless you think its going to do something for them.

I never said it wasn't required to be a Catholic. It is. Babies are baptized as a symbolic ceremony marking their entrance in to the church. it isn't anything more then that.


also what do catholics call the pope/ priests? i mean how do they address them?

*sigh
I know what your trying to do here. Priests are usually called fathers while higher ranked officials are usually addressed differently. The pope for instance is usually addressed as "your holiness" or "Holy Father." Try not to delve to deep into this either. Its simply a sign of respect.

I'm still waiting for you to argue against my significant points.

[SSaxdude]

I'm an agnostic, but if I was 100% about there being a higher being I still wouldn't go to church. But whatever, I don't care what you believe in.

But I will say one thing in regards to ice_mans point about not taking the entire bible literally. The only problem with that is where to draw the line. Could the whole bible not be meant to be taken literally?

[Kaiser]

I really don't care what you believe in either Iceman. I'm no right-wing bible thumper. I just didn't like how you called the Catholic church non-christian. Thats just a very dumb comment to make.

I'm still interested to find out what church you belong to so I can get a better understanding of where your coming from.

[ICE]

I never said it wasn't required to be a Catholic. It is. Babies are baptized as a symbolic ceremony marking their entrance in to the church. it isn't anything more then that.thats wrong according to catholic.com.




*sigh
I know what your trying to do here. Priests are usually called fathers while higher ranked officials are usually addressed differently. The pope for instance is usually addressed as "your holiness" or "Holy Father." Try not to delve to deep into this either. Its simply a sign of respect.

you do realized that jesus said that no man is good and holy right? calling the pope holy is directly in defiance of that. john 8:41 says we have but one father. addressing the pope as father is declaring him as god and thats an title the pope has never declined.


I'm still waiting for you to argue against my significant points.
you havent made any.

i'll link you to a page that will explain to you that catholics dont even think they're the same as us! the call US wrong constantly! catholic salvation (http://www.catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp)

EDIT:
But I will say one thing in regards to ice_mans point about not taking the entire bible literally. The only problem with that is where to draw the line. Could the whole bible not be meant to be taken literally? um i find it very easy to see where the line is. anyone who cant maybe should leave the studying to the people who can.

[Kaiser]

thats wrong according to catholic.com.

According to Catholic catechisms, Baptism is the symbolic entry into the church. It is the acceptance of Christ and the first part of being a Christian (let alone a catholic).

Most Christian churches accept the ritual of baptism.




you do realized that jesus said that no man is good and holy right? calling the pope holy is directly in defiance of that. john 8:41 says we have but one father. addressing the pope as father is declaring him as god and thats an title the pope has never declined.

I knew what you were planning to do from the start. IT IS NOT ADDRESSING HIM AS GOD. No real Catholic worships the Pope. Do not take the bible so damn literally. Jesus simply meant not to take another man as divine and to worship them. This is simple christian doctrine you have interpretted wrongly to make a point.

I like how you completely ingnored my statement of not delving to deep into it.

I'd still like to find out what church you belong to.

[tactful mcbee]

Comparison of Beliefs
* Taken from Roman Catholicism: Scripture vs. Tradition
The Doctrine of Jesus
The Bible
(New American Standard Bible)
The Roman Catholic Church
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)
Jesus the Savior:
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. RCC teaches that “by His death and resurrection, Jesus Christ has ‘opened’ heaven to us” (1026). Each person attains his own salvation by grace and by the Holy Spirit, good works (1477).



Jesus the Redeemer:
1 Peter 1:17-19
And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. RCC teaches that Mary is the sinless co- Redeemer. “Without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and work of her son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with Him…being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race" (494).

Jesus the Redeemer: Jesus our Advocate and only Mediator:
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; RCC teaches that Mary “did not lay aside [her] saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.” She “is ...Advocate… and Mediatrix” (969).

Jesus, Head of the Church:
Ephesians 1:22-23
And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. RCC teaches that the Pope, “by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has Full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise un-hindered” (882). He exercises infallibility when “he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals” (891).

Jesus the soon-coming King:
Acts 1:11
and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” RCC denies this by teaching that Jesus returns daily to the altars of Catholic churches to be worshipped: “The body and blood…soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ…is truly, really and substantially contained" in the Eucharist (1374-1378)

Christ's Work
Jesus is the propitiation for our sin
1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. RCC teaches that sins are expiated (forgiven) in purgatory through “a cleansing fire” and that we “must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace" (1030, 31; 1472-75)

Jesus finished the work of redemption
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Hebrews 7:27-28
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. RCC denies it is finished. “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice…the same Christ who offered Himself once in bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner" (1367). “Every time this mystery is celebrated the work of our redemption is carried on" (1405). The sacrifice is “offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead" (1414)

His life, death, and resurrection provide the only way to be saved
Acts 4:12
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.” RCC denies this by claiming the Catholic Church “is necessary for salvation" (846) and claiming “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims" (841).

His shed blood is the only remission for sins
Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hebrews 10:18
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. RCC teaches “an indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose Guilt has already been forgiven, which…may be applied to the living or the dead" (1471).

Jesus cleanses us from sin
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— RCC teaches that “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (1030).

Doctrine of Salvation
Salvation is proclaimed in the Gospel
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. RCC preaches a different gospel by demanding additional requirements for salvation, including: the Sacraments (1129), meritorious masses (1405), church membership (846), purgatory (1030), indulgences (1498), and baptism (1256).

Salvation is of God, not man
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation— having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
John 1:13
who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. RCC teaches “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration ... without which no one can enter the Kingdom of God" (1213, 1215)

Salvation is through faith, not works
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Psalms 49:7-8
No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to God a ransom for him— For the redemption of his soul is costly, and he should cease trying forever— RCC teaches salvation through faith plus works. People can obtain their own salvation and at the same time cooperate in saving their brothers through good works and indulgences (1477, 1479).

Salvation is by grace, not merit
Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. RCC denies justifying grace is undeserved: “We can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life” (2027)

Salvation rejected is Hell
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, RCC teaches that “Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer…eternal fire" (1035)


The Doctrine of Justification
Justification, what is it? - The act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal

Romans 5:18 says:
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches a different doctrine on justification compared to that of Biblical Christianity.

Biblical Doctrine Roman Catholic Doctrine
Justification is God’s act of declaring a sinner righteous by faith
Justification is God’s act of making man righteous by good works and obedience

Christ’s imputed righteousness makes the believer acceptable to God
Infused sanctifying grace through the sacraments makes the believer acceptable to God

Justification is received by faith alone
Justification is achieved by faith plus good works

Justification enables God to see the sinner as if he were just
Justification is granted the sinner when he is actually made just

Justification cannot increase since the ground is the perfect righteousness of Christ
Justification can be increased by receiving more sacraments

Justification is a permanent verdict and is not affected by sin
Justification is affected by sin

Justification comes at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ
Final justification is not determined until death

Emphasis is on God’s verdict
Emphasis is on the sacraments





Dogmas Declared by the
Roman Catholic Church

Here are some Doctrines or Dogmas declared by the Roman Catholic Church. These Dogmas violate the teaching of Scripture.

Year Statement

437 Proclamation that infant baptism regenerates the soul


500 The Mass instituted as a re-sacrifice of Jesus for the remission of sins


593 Declaration that sins need to be purged, established by Pope Gregory I


600 Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints, and angels


786 Worship of cross, images, and relics authorized


995 Canonization of dead people as saints initiated by Pope John XV


1000 Attendance at Mass made mandatory under the penalty of mortal sin


1079 Celibacy of priesthood, decreed by Pope Gregory VII


1090 Rosary, repetitious praying with beads, invented by Peter the Hermit


1184 The Inquisition, instituted by the Council of Verona


1190 The sale of Indulgences established to reduce time in Purgatory


1215 Transubstantiation, proclaimed by Pope Innocent III


1215 Confession of sins to priests, instituted by Pope Innocent III


1229 Bible placed on Index of Forbidden Books in Toulouse


1438 Purgatory elevated from doctrine to dogma by Council of Florence


1545 Tradition claimed equal in authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent


1546 Apocryphal Books declared cannon by Council of Trent


1854 Immaculate Conception of Mary, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX


1870 Infallibility of the Pope, proclaimed by Vatican Council


1922 Virgin Mary proclaimed co-redeemer with Jesus by Pope Benedict XV

[Kaiser]

I'm sorry but a bunch of copy and pasted "information" (and I use that word loosely) is not an argument. Thats a bunch of evangalical bible-thumping if you ask me. Your obviously interpretting the bible differently. The Catholic church has made many mistakes in the past. But most of the stuff your pointing at in that list is either irrelavent or simply incorrect.


Can we accept that and move on?


I'm not trying to get you to accept Catholic doctrine. You might have different beliefs and thats fine by me. Early Christianity thrived on diversity. I'm just asking for you to open your mind a bit and ackowledge that the Catholic church is a Christian one. Its really simple.

[ICE]

According to Catholic catechisms, Baptism is the symbolic entry into the church. It is the acceptance of Christ and the first part of being a Christian (let alone a catholic).

Most Christian churches accept the ritual of baptism.


again thats wrong. read the above post by tactful. thats not catholic doctrine and saying it is dosent make it so.



I knew what you were planning to do from the start. IT IS NOT ADDRESSING HIM AS GOD. No real Catholic worships the Pope. Do not take the bible so damn literally. Jesus simply meant not to take another man as divine and to worship them. This is simple christian doctrine you have interpretted wrongly to make a point.lol your counter point is dont take that verse so literally? read like the very last line on tactful's post. the vatican calls the pope infallible.


I like how you completely ingnored my statement of not delving to deep into it.

I'd still like to find out what church you belong to.

i ignored it because thats the wrong approach to the topic and im not part of a church currently.


I'm just asking for you to open your mind a bit and ackowledge that the Catholic church is a Christian one. Its really simple. but its a lie. the vatican even says they're different.

yes we have different beliefs. the vatican says mary is co-redeemer with christ. i disagree. the vatican say the pope is infallible. i disagree. the vatican says to pray to mary and angles and dead prophets. i disagree.

heres an idea. google "are catholics christians" and see what the masses think. almost the entire first page says no.

[SSaxdude]

um i find it very easy to see where the line is. anyone who cant maybe should leave the studying to the people who can.

Could you maybe answer my question instead of trying to flame me?

Well homework time for me.

[ICE]

Could you maybe answer my question instead of trying to flame me?

Well homework time for me.

your question was a what if kinda question. i suppose if you want to think its a analogies you could but that would be wrong. if you look at the context in the hebrew its very clear whats what but if you cant do that and your not sure guessing is not your best option ever. i wasnt flaming. stop being so sensitive... im a very sarcastic guy and sarcasm doesnt translate well through typed word so sorry..

[tactful mcbee]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, or CCC, is an official exposition of the teachings of the Catholic Church, first published in French in 1992 by the authority of Pope John Paul II

that means this is the catholic churches current beliefs therefore its critical information of the catholic belief system. if you are a catholic this "evangalical bible-thumping" should be rebuked, if you can.

if you want me to type your belief system its going to take a while

and these are not mistakes of the catholic church its doctrine

[Kaiser]

Perhaps I'm approaching this wrong.


again thats wrong. read the above post by tactful. thats not catholic doctrine and saying it is dosent make it so.

Indeed saying I'm wrong does not make it so either. Nether does pointing to a website. We'll move away from that to though.




lol your counter point is dont take that verse so literally? read like the very last line on tactful's post. the vatican calls the pope infallible.

No, again your completely misunderstanding (or blindly ignoring) what I said. I said don't take it literally. Catholics believe your interpretation is wrong. Deal with it. You have no way of proving yourself right and neither do we. Accept the difference.

The Pope will only claim infallability on dogma not doctrine. Get your facts straight. Infallability doesn't mean "the pope is always right" it means that certain statements by the pope with support of dogmatic teachings are the true teachings of Christ (at least according to Catholic beliefs).

Again you don't have to accept this. Just deal with it. It doesn't make us heathens.



but its a lie. the vatican even says they're different.

Of course they do, all churches claim they're different from others. Otherwise we'd all be in the same exact church. Despite our differences though we are still Christian and accept the core beliefs of chrisitanity. See the Nicene Creed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed). However I'm sure the Vatican would try to distance itself from certain evangelical churches. The pope would, and I would, obviously see that as heresy.


yes we have different beliefs. the vatican says mary is co-redeemer with christ. i disagree. the vatican say the pope is infallible. i disagree. the vatican says to pray to mary and angles and dead prophets. i disagree.

We should be able to live with those differences.

[tactful mcbee]

Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas, Greek δόγμα, plural δόγματα) is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion
Infallibility, from Latin origin (in, not + fallere, to deceive), is a term with a variety of meanings related to knowing truth with certainty.


wow glad you cleared that up

[Kaiser]

Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas, Greek δόγμα, plural δόγματα) is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion
Infallibility, from Latin origin (in, not + fallere, to deceive), is a term with a variety of meanings related to knowing truth with certainty.


wow glad you cleared that up

I should have said Catholic Dogma. Catholic Dogma is simply a belief that is so certain that it cannot be changed. Catholic Doctrine however is a belief/policy that can be changed.

ex:

The Catholic church does not support gay marriage right now. This is simply doctrine and the possibility of change is still there.

Trinitarianism is Catholic dogma however. Their is no possibility that this belief will change in the church.

Personally I completely agree with the Catholic Church's Dogmatic teachings but I disagree with certain doctrines. This is perfectly acceptable.

[ICE]

Perhaps I'm approaching this wrong.



Indeed saying I'm wrong does not make it so either. Nether does pointing to a website. We'll move away from that to though.your the first person who ive ever met thats denied any of this. i went to school with tons of catholics and thats what they all believed.




No, again your completely misunderstanding (or blindly ignoring) what I said. I said don't take it literally. Catholics believe your interpretation is wrong. Deal with it. You have no way of proving yourself right and neither do we. Accept the difference.FINALLY. they're different accept it. christians believe your's is wrong. get over it.




The Pope will only claim infallability on dogma not doctrine. Get your facts straight. Infallability doesn't mean "the pope is always right" it means that certain statements by the pope with support of dogmatic teachings are the true teachings of Christ (at least according to Catholic beliefs).

Again you don't have to accept this. Just deal with it. It doesn't make us heathens. that entire statement is wrong by definition.




Of course they do, all churches claim they're different from others. Otherwise we'd all be in the same exact church. Despite our differences though we are still Christian and accept the core beliefs of chrisitanity. See the Nicene Creed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed). However I'm sure the Vatican would try to distance itself from certain evangelical churches. The pope would, and I would, obviously see that as heresy. catholics dont accept our core beliefs. thats the point of this. your personal church might but the CCC doesnt.




We should be able to live with those differences. i can live with differences. i cant live with false cailms.

EDIT: so doctrine is just the little things that are changeable? first off with correct interpretaion of the bible you dont have to change anything. if your church is continually changing its teaching that should tell you something..

the vatican recently decided that mary is now co-redeemer and equal with jesus. so the status of jesus and mary is a little thing that can be changed?

[Kaiser]

catholics dont accept our core beliefs. thats the point of this. your personal church might but the CCC doesnt.

Who is "our" when you say this? The Nicene Creed is one of the few things christians can agree with.



i can live with differences. i cant live with false cailms.

Who are you to define what is false?

What/who the hell do you consider Christian?

Would you consider Orthodox, Oriental, Coptic or protestant followers as Christian? Who among these groups are actually Christian under your defination?

[tactful mcbee]

EDIT: so doctrine is just the little things that are changeable? first off with correct interpretaion of the bible you dont have to change anything. if your church is continually changing its teaching that should tell you something..

the vatican recently decided that mary is now co-redeemer and equal with jesus. so the status of jesus and mary is a little thing that can be changed?

by the way, you said Trinitarian theology is dogma, saying mary is co-equel is what we like to call a contridiction.

[ICE]

I've realised that arguing with you is pointless. You simply don't consider catholics as christian. There's no use arguing to someone so narrow minded.



Fixed.

i find it hard to believe that you dont see the overwhelming evidence around you. the fact you can brush all of that off and turn a closed ear to it is incredible.

as for me being close minded that was an uncalled for comment. you dont know me or my actions. close minded would be accepting my christian church as right and everything else is wrong. instead i have studied religion for years to find the truth.

after studying them all i found what was right and what was wrong.

the only closed minded person here is you. i was an atheist for until i was 15 or so parading around like i was a christian so i didnt get yelled at by my parents and yet im close minded.

EDIT: i dont determine what false. the bible does. who are christians? people who accept jesus by faith.

EDIT2x: kaiser i dont wanna hear these sarcastic questions. i answered you already. the BIBLE says to accept jesus by faith and you will be saved.

[Kaiser]

i find it hard to believe that you dont see the overwhelming evidence around you. the fact you can brush all of that off and turn a closed ear to it is incredible.

Its fine to not believe the same as me. All you've been doing is disagreeing with my beliefs. You haven't proved them wrong.



the only closed minded person here is you. i was an atheist for until i was 15 or so parading around like i was a christian so i didnt get yelled at by my parents and yet im close minded.

I'm tolerant to many different religous beliefs ( I am Canadian after all). I'm open minded in the sense that I'm willing to tolerate all religions. I am open minded in the sense that I don't insult others faith. I am open minded in that I don't try to push my beliefs on others that might have a different outlook.




EDIT: i dont determine what false. the bible does. who are christians? people who accept jesus by faith.

EDIT2x: kaiser i dont wanna hear these sarcastic questions. i answered you already. the BIBLE says to accept jesus by faith and you will be saved.

Catholics accept Jesus and interpretting the bible differently doesn't automatically mean your right.

[ICE]

excerpts from the catechism--

1. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
2. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
3. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
4. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both eternal and temporal.
5. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot be repeated.
6. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.
7. Baptism can be validly administered by anyone.
8. Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised.
9. The Baptism of young children is valid and licit.

the bold goes against the bible.

[Kaiser]

excerpts from the catechism--

1. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
2. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
3. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
4. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both eternal and temporal.
5. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot be repeated.
6. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.
7. Baptism can be validly administered by anyone.
8. Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised.
9. The Baptism of young children is valid and licit.

the bold goes against the bible.


It only go's against the bible under your interpretation. Accept that others may believe differently. I'm never asked you to accept the Catholic church or any other church for that matter. I'm just asking you to open your mind in the sense that others may have different beliefs.

Thats probably my argument at its purest.

[ICE]

not my interpretation. CHRISTIAN interpretation. catholics arent christians because of that.
EDIT: christian dogma on salvation-

1. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV).
2. "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4).
1. This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Gal. 3-5).
2. you cannot add to the work of God. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (NIV)
3. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
1. "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
2. "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law" (Gal. 3:21).

[tactful mcbee]

if we use the same scripture but have different beliefs someone is wrong and someone is right. therefore it is not ok if we have different beliefs because what you say about our God is insulting

[Kaiser]

not my interpretation. CHRISTIAN interpretation. catholics arent christians because of that.
EDIT: christian dogma on salvation-

1. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV).
2. "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4).
1. This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Gal. 3-5).
2. you cannot add to the work of God. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (NIV)
3. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
1. "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
2. "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law" (Gal. 3:21).

Your argument just fell apart there. Your pointing out interpretations. Ever thought that other might interpret it differently?


if we use the same scripture but have different beliefs someone is wrong and someone is right. therefore it is not ok if we have different beliefs because what you say about our God is insulting


You basically just said that your intolerant and it is not okay that you have different beliefs. Who are you to say what is insulting? Perhaps I find your arguments insulting.

[ICE]

i am open that i may be wrong. if i wasnt i wouldnt be studying if i should eat pork or not. i thought it was okay but i may be wrong.

here's my issue. truth is NOT relative.<< logical opinion. if we disagree someones right someones wrong. i believe i am and therefore i want to show you where your wrong. i dont do this so i can say i won. i do this because i want to help you. i have given the proof that we are different so now its up to you to decide whos right and whos wrong.


Your argument just fell apart there. Your pointing out interpretations. Ever thought that other might interpret it differently?
um thats the entire point of this debate. we have different beliefs therefore one of us it wrong.


You basically just said that your intolerant and it is not okay that you have different beliefs.he never said that disagreeing with him was wrong. dont put words in his mouth. that was a petty comment. he just said that if 2 people look at the same thing and come to 2 different conclusions at least one of them is wrong. do you disagree?

[tactful mcbee]

You basically just said that your intolerant and it is not okay that you have different beliefs. Who are you to say what is insulting? Perhaps I find your arguments insulting.

and your point would be.
Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

the God you say you worship commands you not to tolerate the utterances of other gods. does that mean anything to you

[Kaiser]

i am open that i may be wrong. if i wasnt i wouldnt be studying if i should eat pork or not. i thought it was okay but i may be wrong.

Very glad to hear that. :)

I admitted a long time ago that I might be wrong to. The only way we will find the real truth is when we die. For God's truth is not refutable. :)


here's my issue. truth is NOT relative.<< logical opinion. if we disagree someones right someones wrong. i believe i am and therefore i want to show you where your wrong. i dont do this so i can say i won. i do this because i want to help you.

I don't want to hear it though. I don't want you to try and convert me to your beliefs. I just want you to tolerate my religion and not insult it. How simple of a demand is that?

Your doing this to gain a convert. I realize your not here for personal glory and I never said you were. I'm just saying that insulting someone else's beliefs is not the way to approach people.

Saying that Catholics aren't christian is insulting. All you had to say is that I don't believe that Catholic teachings are the proper teachings of Christ. I would have been fine with such a response. That doesn't come off insulting.


um thats the entire point of this debate. thats what youve been denying for the last hour or so. we are different therefore one of us it wrong.

The debate is whether you have the right to say which is right and which is wrong. I'm not here to say your beliefs are wrong. I'm simply saying that you should open up a bit and quit trying to insult my religous beliefs. Your claiming your right without even considering that others religious beliefs may be different.


he never said that disagreeing with him was wrong. dont put words in his mouth. that was a petty comment. he just said that if 2 people look at the same thing and come to 2 different conclusions at least one of them is wrong. do you disagree?

But he did say it was wrong to disagree.

He clearly said "it is not ok if we have different beliefs"

Thats a pretty straightforward answer. There is going to be a wrong answer and a right answer. But no one can be sure which is the right and which is the wrong answer. Saying that the bible can tell set the line straight is wrong as well. As who are you to say that your interpretation is right?


and your point would be.
Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

the God you say you worship commands you not to tolerate the utterances of other gods. does that mean anything to you

Yeah to me it means not to worship pagan dieties or to worship any other idol. Thats my interpretation, your free to take it another way.

Praying to Mary is not an act of worship IMO. Again your free to take it your way again.

[ICE]

Very glad to hear that. :)

I admitted a long time ago that I might be wrong to. The only way we will find the real truth is when we die. For God's truth is not refutable. :)



I don't want to hear it though. I don't want you to try and convert me to your beliefs. I just want you to tolerate my religion and not insult it. How simple of a demand is that?

Your doing this to gain a convert. I realize your not here for personal glory and I never said you were. I'm just saying that insulting someone else's beliefs is not the way to approach people.

Saying that Catholics aren't christian is insulting. All you had to say is that I don't believe that Catholic teachings are the proper teachings of Christ. I would have been fine with such a response. That doesn't come off insulting.



The debate is whether you have the right to say which is right and which is wrong. I'm not here to say your beliefs are wrong. I'm simply saying that you should open up a bit and quit trying to insult my religous beliefs. Your claiming your right without even considering that others religious beliefs may be different.



But he did say it was wrong to disagree.

He clearly said "it is not ok if we have different beliefs"

Thats a pretty straightforward answer. There is going to be a wrong answer and a right answer. But no one can be sure which is the right and which is the wrong answer. Saying that the bible can tell set the line straight is wrong as well. As who are you to say that your interpretation is right?



Yeah to me it means not to worship pagan dieties or to worship any other idol.

Praying to Mary is not an act of worship.

first off i never intended to insult anyone or anything.

i pray to deities not a women. fyi jesus called her women like 6 times. pretty sure he did that for a reason.

you still think catholics are christians i, and the fact that during the inquisition catholics killed an unbelievable amount of protestans lol, still disagree.

[tactful mcbee]

admitted a long time ago that I might be wrong to. The only way we will find the real truth is when we die. For God's truth is not refutable.

or read the bible.


Saying that Catholics aren't christian is insulting. All you had to say is that I don't believe that Catholic teachings are the proper teachings of Christ. I would have been fine with such a response. That doesn't come off insulting.

this is a debate. facts are facts, if you can't tolerate our arguments presentation you shouldn't debate. we don't beat around the bush. if you die and don't hear the gosple because we wouldn't come out and say it, then we are responsible for you soul.


Saying that the bible can tell set the line straight is wrong as well. As who are you to say that your interpretation is right?

who said we are right. we said you are wrong. your own beliefs contridict your own scripture. THAT IS THE DEBATE. not simple misinterpretation but contridictions of how you are to attain salvation.

thats whats on the line

[Kaiser]

or read the bible.

Believe me I've done it. :)




this is a debate. facts are facts, if you can't tolerate our arguments presentation you shouldn't debate. we don't beat around the bush. if you die and don't hear the gosple because we wouldn't come out and say it, then we are responsible for you soul.

Thats a very medieval thing to say. The bible is not a text book. I doubt Iceman would agree with your stance here. Do not impose your beliefs on me. I do not want you to. The bible is a book to be interpretted not a book to be taken literally. Fundamentalists have no place in this argument.



who said we are right. we said you are wrong. your own beliefs contridict your own scripture. THAT IS THE DEBATE.

It only contradicts our beliefs under your interpretation. The debate was never about what/who is right and what is wrong. I started this thread to explain to Iceman how insulted I felt. You simply jumped in and started bible thumping.


first off i never intended to insult anyone or anything.

i pray to deities not a women. fyi jesus called her women like 6 times. pretty sure he did that for a reason.

You obviously don't believe that Mary's a valid person to pray to. Thats fine, but my belief will differ.



you still think catholics are christians i, and the fact that during the inquisition catholics killed an unbelievable amount of protestans lol, still disagree.


Bringing up the Spanish inquisition is irrelavent. Catholics (and more specifically Spanish monarchs) are capable of doing terrible things just as much as the next guy. That was an attempt to take a shot at my church, yet again, but I can overlook it.


Can we all possibly agree to disagree then? :D

[SnesR0X]

or read the bible.

yes, because everything in the bible is completely true. (sarcasm)

[ICE]

You obviously don't believe that Mary's a valid person to pray to. Thats fine, but my belief will differ.



Bringing up the Spanish inquisition is irrelavent. Catholics (and more specifically Spanish monarchs) are capable of doing terrible things just as much as the next guy. That was an attempt to take a shot at my church, yet again, but I can overlook it.


Can we possibly agree to disagree then?

the inquisition comment wasnt meant to be taken seriously. that was what the "lol" thing was for. it was a joke. i havent taken any shots at your church. just its beliefs.

and no, praying to mary, a women, is about as valid as praying to my neighbor.

we disagree and im fine with that now that you have been presented with what i know as truth.


yes, because everything in the bible is completely true. (sarcasm)enough with the petty comments. if you have something valid to say say it. i dont want to hear your opinion if you have no facts to back it up.

[tactful mcbee]

yes, because everything in the bible is completely true. (sarcasm)

somebody has been studying lol

[Kaiser]

Okay then enough of this thread then. :D

The verdict: We agree to disagree.