Dirty Tactics ahoy

[wraggster]

The PSP Scene has for me been such an exciting scene from the moment the PSP was announced to the release of the console to Hello World to the Jap Coders to Eloaders and Custom Firmwares and the many great things in between.

But when the PSP Scene got big the sites who used to cover the Gamecube/PS2 Scenes jumped over to the PSP Scene to join in the fun.

Sadly shortly after a webmaster of a site that begins with M contacted several coders at DCEmu to jump ship to his forums and even offered money just so he could say it was an exclusive release. Needless to say that the webmaster of M wasnt the only one, other sites with Money behind them did the same but not as blatent as this person.

This buying off of coders or shall we say a very nice donation just for exclusives is the sad way for the PSP Scene at the moment. I personally think coders deserve all they get although dirty tactics are not needed. Im sure Brakken of tehskeen could guess who im pointing a finger at.

Im not going to name names because it would be easy for those to cover it up but regardless of what they have released the scene will be better without them. Sites who do these actions will not be linked to from DCEmu and banned permanently.

[fatcat04912]

Hmm is it Ma* Cons*e

[Bobtentpeg]

to get teh MAX out of your CONSOLES dont use that site

[DarthPaul]

Lol, thought so.

Great to know this, now I won't even type that url.

[Shadowblind]

I knew there was something wrong with them. I just thought they had a severe case of PS3 fanboy-itis(yes YKB, I got the -itis idea from you :p) after getting banned for saying the 360 is on par in power. If there was ever a site i can say acts worse then 2 year olds on crystal meth and steroids, it'd be one that pretends to max out the consoles.

Lets hear it for misleading names!

[unstoppable_96]

I Cant Believe I ever used That Site :( , i am ashamed

[Basil Zero]

wow never knew they would use such dirty tactics, now that I would care, since I never went to their site, nor do I plan to do so.

I only go to 2 sites, DCEmu being one of them, and I'm sure you all know what other one I go to ^___-.

[XxJU571NxX]

Wow I can't believe they did that. I'm quitting my moderator position there and leaving that site for ever. Maybe I'll start using DCEMU now!

[joesnose]

realy quite annoying, i use that site on a daily basis, still will, but i hate this kinda shit

[osgeld]

the 360 is on par in power.

i dont think it is, but since theres so few games on the ps3 that wasnt designed to be cross platforable the world may never know

anywho back on topic

as i get better and better with lua, open GL and understanding the psp i feel like im getting close to start making something worth a release

and when i do it will be on DCEMU, this place has been a awesome resource for everything psp

yes it might take some digging and poking sometimes but its always well worth it

rock on DCEMU rock on

[Shadowblind]

i dont think it is, but since theres so few games on the ps3 that wasnt designed to be cross platforable the world may never know

anywho back on topic

as i get better and better with lua, open GL and understanding the psp i feel like im getting close to start making something worth a release

and when i do it will be on DCEMU, this place has been a awesome resource for everything psp

yes it might take some digging and poking sometimes but its always well worth it

rock on DCEMU rock on

Thats great man, but....this is kinda the wrong topic to post it in, lol :o

Still, keep on keeping on and you'll get coding down ;)

[Sterist]

user since 05 and many more to come :thumbup:
<---

[3.40.Newbie]

I don't see the problem with this and I really don't see how it could be classed as a dirty trick.

If a site chooses to pony up some cash for developers where is the harm ? A lot of people put a lot of time and effort into making freely available homebrew, I think it's great that a site is prepared to throw some money their way.

1) Once the site doesn't charge for people to download the software, then your average PSP user is no worse off

2) Sites make money out of advertising links etc. so if they throw some money to the developers in exchange for exclusivity then it is a win-win situation. Developers get more incentive to code and the site gets more hits.

3) More incentive to code means more/better homebrew

4) After it is posted there is nothing stopping other sites linking, so it's not like anybody misses out

I know I'd spend more time coding if I thought I could make a few quid from it....

[Shadowblind]

Its called bribery.

they want to have projects made specifically for they're site for various reasons: they may be intending to CASH IN on a coders work, or to try and get members from another site to join they're site for the publicity. They would copyright the work to they're own site making it possibly illegal to have it on a different site.

Many developers release they're projects as FREEWARE, because they do what they love, or they want to help out the community. Usually not to EVER do they do it for commercial gain :(

I don't see it COULDN'T be a dirty trick, really...

[3.40.Newbie]

You are making assumptions about what they are going to do, but you don't know any of it for a fact.

Sure if they copyrighted the material for use only on their site then it would definitely be against the spirit of the homebrew scene. But if they are willing to put up some money on a proviso that maybe the code was released to them first or you had to link to their site or even display a splash screen, I would see it more along the lines of sponsorship as apposed to a dirty trick.

I have recently read a lot about developers quiting the scene, maybe they would be more inclined to stay if they had a little more to show for it.

Every time you click on one of these sites they make money (albeit not a lot of money), this site is giving some of it back.

[Veskgar]

Yeah, I use that site also. Mainly only because its the only site I've seen Dark_AleX, Mathieulh, and other coders post to frequently. Being involved with discussions on threads and then seeing Dark_AleX himself post, makes you feel like you are on a legitimate site. It was Dark_AleX himself who posted the release of 3.71 M33 on the "M" site.

Is this post hinting that the site that shall be known as "M" bought off Dark_AleX?

I'm not really getting this. Profiting from their work is a huge incentive as stated in an earlier post. And the more incentive, the more frequent the releases and better quality of homebrew.

There are very few people in the world willing to devote so much time & effort only to have their work devoured up by hundreds of thousands of people without any monetary gain via donations, incentives, etc.

I'm not saying I agree fully with these tactics, just looking for a better argument as to why it is such a horrible thing for the scene.

[mavsman4457]

Creating a thread just to point out that a certain site is full of crap? That sounds a little hypocritical. If you think about I'm sure you'll agree. I do favor DCemu over any other site though so don't think I'm a traitor or something.

[3.40.Newbie]

I don't spend lots of time surfing the web, and I mainly get all I need from this site so I'd never even been to this other site before now, but the original post has now put it on my radar....

[Shadowblind]

IDK, I heard most of the PSP coders kicked-out because of Sony threatening to sue or press charges against them, not because of getting nothing in return.

I don't know, I may be wrong.

Mavsman: it really doesn't matter whether or not you like this site more or less then another. If you like video games to any extent, your always welcome here! :D

[Zargon]

I have literally never heard of the site this particular thread is pertaining to. Went to their site just to see what they were like, but they have nothing good anyway, so whats the point?

[Gene]

This kind of stuff just disappoints me. I agree it is a very dirty tactic.

[3.40.Newbie]

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Look at is as a sort of sponsorship, not a bribe. Sponsorship is all over the place, even on this web site. Why do you think there are those links at the top of the page for the 'Success HK' store ? I'd imagine they have negotiated some sort of advertising space exclusivity.

Compare it to, for example motor racing. Mclaren is sponsored by Vodafone. Their drivers wear their logo and give them some exclusive interviews etc. In return Vodafone gives money to the Mclaren team. Vodafone pay to have their company profile associated with Mclaren, Mclaren use the money to build a better car and team. And Joe Bloggs gets to watch the race. If Vodafone stopped the sponsorship, the teams would still race, but without as much money for developement, the team wouldn't be able to reach it's full potential and ultimately Joe Bloggs loses because the end result is not as good.

The vast majority of developers do it because it is a passion not for the monetary gain, but that said if a site is willing to sponsor a developer, thus improving that developers output, in my mind it will benefit the whole community

[Sterist]

3.40 i think you're looking at a lot of things the wrong way, and any one of which does not need to be explained or pointed out to be identified.

mass-exclusive releases greatly limits publication, and increases tensions on site relations in more than one way. all for greater site traffic / money -- also known as Monetary Gain. sound fimiliar? hope so because i am not going to post again about this and i do hope that you cease any strong feelings you might have for what they're doing....

[Cap'n 1time]

long post.

While I am VERY sick of this drama and will probably be posting a nasty letter in staff about it in the near future, I disagree. Bribery is not the same thing as earnings through ad revenue. When that site bribes other programmers for exclusive content they begin to gain money based upon hits.

We dont bribe, nor will we ever bribe any coders in hopes they will join our network. They are here because they wish to be part of the DCemu network and no other reason. The money wraggster earns is justified by his constant news posting and free hosting for any major contributor to any scene (not limited to psp). He offers a service and receives something in return with minimal interference from ads (though we all hate the ads when they are posted on the main page as news).

When you bribe coders with a tiny sum of money then all news sources link to you, and some moron who provides little to no service makes money for his half assed network.

Thus far we've tried to steer the scene away from some sort of business (and sites like PSPU and MC have never helped with this). That will only damage the "scene". Weve been around far longer than either PSPU or MC and we would prefer to do things the way they've always been done... with as little drama and greedy ****ers as possible. It is certainly a dirty tactic.

IF M is so interested in making sure our coders get paid they can donate.... and so can all of you!

[pakkman781]

Oh, come on, this is FUD bullsh*t. I frequent DCEMU, QJ and MC, and they're all great sites. I'll believe it when I see proof.

[3.40.Newbie]

Of couse Monetary Gain sounds familiar, that's why these sites exist in the first place, this site included.

People get paid to do exclusive interviews in magazines and on TV. That's not a dirty trick that's competition. And provided this site doesn't limit the availability to the public then the issue comes back to the mighty $$$. Site M is making some money through advertising etc., from the work that developers in this community are doing and in order to maintain that revenue they are willing to put some of the money back in.

Provided the software remains free and readily available then only the competition suffers, not the end user.

Make no mistake all these sites exist to make money, if one of these sites comes up with an idea that benefits all those concerned (except the competition that is) what's the problem ?
It's not like they are restricting the downloads.

The developers can't possibly post on every PSP forum so if you can post on site A and get nothing or post on site B and get a few quid for it, then I think it'd be a pretty easy decision.

Let's face it the only real danger involved with paying developers is that they'll use the money to buy beer and maybe kill of some important brain cells....

[ish420ism]

I agree with 3.40.Newbie on this one.
Hate all you want. If this means I'll get a certain homebrew app from another site, because dcemu got butt hurt and won't link, I can always get it from the source site. It's not like I'm gonna stop coming to dcemu for my homebrew news. Although threatning to not link seems like a crybaby move.

[3.40.Newbie]

The money wraggster earns is justified by his constant news posting and free hosting for any major contributor to any scene (not limited to psp). He offers a service and receives something in return

Is free hosting considered a bribe :)

[akuma2000]

I tend to agree with 3.40 on this as I go to MC,QJ and DCEMU a lot. Although I started with this site way back when I first got into the whole homebrew scene with my Dreamcast. I like all three sites since they each have different news at different times. Some times MC gets the news first and sometimes dcemu does so it's all good.

I don't really understand all the hate, I mean aren't all websites (at least major ones) out to make money? And how do they do that? they offer things that others can't stuff that distinguishes them from the other 50 or so sites. If this means recruiting talent to their sites through monetary means then what's the problem? It's not like they are saying that other sites can't link to the files or even host them on their own sites. If one site offers the coders a little compensation what's the harm? Seems to me it would attract more coders to the scene, and with that everybody wins.

It's not enough that the coders are bickering amongst themselves now we have websites doing finger pointing of their own. The scene is starting to become like a bunch of teenage girls whining about what the others are doing and saying "Did you hear what so and so did? I am so not speaking to them anymore." Why can't everyone just get along so that we can all just enjoy our consoles and homebrew without all the teenage girlie drama?

[ficksucker]

Doesn't our media pay people for exclusives on a regular basis? To the point of shelling out big bucks to be the first to have pics of some famous douchebag's baby?

So if you accept that, how can you be critical of that site, arn't they doing the same thing? Isn't this site a form of news media?

I'm not speaking for or against it, I'm just saying that if you accept this going on in societey on a regular basis, why is it wrong all of a sudden when this site does it?

[brakken]

I find nothing wrong with developers being paid to either develop exclusive applications for a website or to release their work on a website.

What I find wrong is the fact that this certain website "M" participates in dubious tactics including plagiarism, not citing sources, excluding competitors releases from their news, promoting only their affiliates products while bashing others even if they are superior and their overall censorship of their forums.

So if you're associated with these type of operations you're not better then them. If you're telling yourself otherwise you're just in denial.

http://www.tehskeen.com/comments.php?mid=94aee02ed75a2b5479f133f6b

[3.40.Newbie]

I find nothing wrong with developers being paid to either develop exclusive applications for a website or to release their work on a website.

What I find wrong is the fact that this certain website "M" participates in dubious tactics including plagiarism, not citing sources, excluding competitors releases from their news, promoting only their affiliates products while bashing others even if they are superior and their overall censorship of their forums.


Now your are just trying to start a mud slinging competition.

This thread is to discuss the ethics of paying developers, if you have other issues maybe you should start a separate thread...

[Fanjita]

Whine whine whine. Doesn't it get old? My personal opinion is that the constant inter-site griping is far more damaging.

3.40.Newbie has done a great job of making almost all the points I wanted to make. There really is nothing odd, unusual or unfair about this.

Something that I would consider a dirty trick is the behaviour that various sites (including this) have shown, when failing to respect coders' requests for exclusivity of release (which generally just means asking that the download is hosted in just one place).

While I'm on a rant, it's probably worth questioning the ever-present "we're not about the money" claim here. How else do you explain the frequent front-paged affiliate ad-articles, and the digg-whoring?

To be fair, the digging has got better, but see the latest M33 firmware news for a sleazy example. Claiming that your digg is good because it includes a link to the original article is missing the point - if your article is fundamentally a simple cut and paste of the original post, then starting a new digg is simply robbing the original site of traffic, purely so that you can get more hits = more $$$. Why not post and publicise a digg for the original site? That to me would show much more clearly a genuine desire to help the scene in preference to helping your wallet.

For the record, I've been accused of site bias in the past, but these days I have no particular preference - all the sites have their flaws. But I will tend to stay away from the ones that carp ceaselessly about the others - it's just a waste of my time, and kills my buzz. I can't be the only one.

[brakken]

For the record, I've been accused of site bias in the past, but these days I have no particular preference - all the sites have their flaws. But I will tend to stay away from the ones that carp ceaselessly about the others - it's just a waste of my time, and kills my buzz. I can't be the only one.

People who post about not caring about drama care more then they tend to think. How is the mess about your leak of the Pandora going? I've narrowed it down to one of your group members :)

@ 3.40.Newbie

You couldn't be more wrong. The ethics involved directly relate to the "M" website in question. Their tactics are condoned by the coders that join them. I don't see a problem with a coder being paid for his services, but associating with scum makes it a problem.

[brakken]

Something that I would consider a dirty trick is the behaviour that various sites (including this) have shown, when failing to respect coders' requests for exclusivity of release (which generally just means asking that the download is hosted in just one place).

Depending on the license the software is released under the author might not have a right to say where it can be released at. Although, honoring a request due to respect would be not out of the question. Both sides of that argument.

[3.40.Newbie]

You couldn't be more wrong. The ethics involved directly relate to the "M" website in question. Their tactics are condoned by the coders that join them. I don't see a problem with a coder being paid for his services, but associating with scum makes it a problem.


Again more mud slinging, I don't know what these guys have done to you to get your feathers so ruffled. But I am sure they could start a thread on their site about how things here are.



Sites who do these actions will not be linked to from DCEmu and banned permanently.

Seeing that wraggster seems to be claiming the moral high ground does this mean that if a piece of code is released by a coder that is part of the M crew then it will not be mentioned/linked on this site. Directly after this thread was start wraggster lifted news about the latest M33 firmware from the same site he is bagging. You can't slam it then lift news from it.

But then again look at how many hits that thread has gotten, does this mean the site will be banned unless you reckon there is good $ to be made from hits about big news from it?

[Cap'n 1time]

Fanjita makes some fair points. If it were up to me, We wouldnt be digg whoring (though, on occasion things are worthy of being digged (dugg?)) and the ads on the front page make the throw up.

Still, requesting developers join another network for a small sum of money is a pretty asshole-ish thing to do. Running this thing like a business is pretty damn wrong in my opinion. If you havnt provided some sort of service then why should you be paid?

We all know wraggster has a few screws loose, and he seems to think he has us (his staff and admins) wrapped around his finger, but we love the bastard anyway. He actually does post more news and write more news than most people (that I've ever heard of) who arnt selling something. He deserves to make a little bit of cash for his effort in my opinion. Now, when some lard ass bribes some coders with a few bucks in hopes of getting a few more hits to his ad infested site and or forums (see qj for an example of this) that is terrible.

Still, we need to make quite a few changes.

[StoneCut]

Sorry, I don't have much to say other than that I find the current ad banner on this forum amusing in this thread context ...

[dcemusuckballs]

1. You have no evidence, apart from Brakkens creative writing website which will soon be renamed the "Im teh jealous of ********** site". Which makes up many lies and then says "well at least im man enough to admit im wrong". Just dont make up lies in the first place!

2. Hummkuvala booster and drak alex have all used ********** as their home since the begining, you never even used to report on custom firmware or loaders and now because they bring in more traffic you now post it.

3.You have lots of ads and ive even see you post your affiliate link to buy pspslim from success HK on **********s psp hacking item diggs.

4. ********** from what i can see never get involved in what you believe are scene politics, so they are purely your creaton. The only way there can be scene politics are with ridiculous lies such as these.

5. In any case even if what you say was true, its good for the scene and bad for mc because everyone gets the release anyway and can access it at the same time. They are not preventing it from being distributed by anybody.

[ExcruciationX]

I remember when the South Park script was leaked, and I had to go to Qj.net to tell them sorry. They were not the image I had in mind. They were nice, and very comical about the script.

I think DCEmu can't be any different then other homebrew sites honestly, but it has a thriving community (which is the only reason I'm on here).

I might join...
http://xs119.xs.to/xs119/07391/21410357.PNG
...just to piss people off.

[robocelot]

Why do you think there are those links at the top of the page for the 'Success HK' store ? I'd imagine they have negotiated some sort of advertising space exclusivity.

Hell, SuccessHK gets 'news' postings on slow news days -- it's almost akin to sanctioned spam. I remember when every time the Wii got any new accessories you would see 5-6 'news' posts in succession, in EVERY DCemu news forum. Sponsorship is one thing, but there's a fine line between sponsoring and shilling.

Back to the issue at hand. I personally feel uncomfortable with the exchange of money for 'freeware' in lieu of exclusivity. Once the genie is out of the bottle there is no putting it back in. When money is waved around like a carrot and developers flock to it, then it becomes only a matter of the size of the carrot and not who is dangling it.

It sets a very dangerous precident that could open the sites and homebrewers up to legal problems from the likes of Sony. It can be easily construed as money being used to fund piracy. Do you think sites like M** C** are going to stand behind the developers they have attracted if/when the lawyers come calling? I doubt it.

[qskint]

why shouldnt they offer money to get releases before other sites? its not like its illegal or really harming anyone, least the coders get something back, why shouldnt they get any money for the hard work they put in?

[jamotto]

Unless these programmers where tortured into accepting these payments , I don't see what the problem is.

[Cokemusic]

I'll probably never use Max Console anymore or reduce my usage of that site to minimal.

I hate webites purley driven by financial gain.

[qskint]

its called business

[Vega]

its called business

Coders, to my understanding, code to release a product to anyone who wants to download it. Why should a website try to monopolise open source pieces of work?
If a coder chooses to accept an offer from any website to exclusively release their work, then fine. After all, it is their work.
But what you have to understand is that these websites are not doing this for the coders, they are doing it to benefit themselves and hurt other PSP websites while they are doing it.

[qskint]

the original post is stating that a website has gone to coders and offered them money to give them exclusive releases, which there shouldn't be any problem with at all. these coders deserve to make a little money if people are willing to give it to them.

if the website is basically selling software without someones consent then that would be a problem.

[jools]

what kind of a world do we live in? :P

[Fanjita]

People who post about not caring about drama care more then they tend to think. How is the mess about your leak of the Pandora going? I've narrowed it down to one of your group members :)

Congrats, must have taken a lot of research... like reading the release post... ;) Incidentally, I don't consider that scene drama, but an issue amongst the people concerned, though the public was due an explanation as to the reasoning, and it was given.


I don't see a problem with a coder being paid for his services, but associating with scum makes it a problem.

Last I heard there was some sort of freedom to choose one's associates. Maybe things have changed since I was a lad, but back then it was a question of personal taste and perspective.

If we go with your principle here, then we'd have to condemn dcemu by association, for siding with the wacky slander that you seem to feel the need to post. But Wraggy is free to have his opinions, at least in my book. So are you, but I'd certainly prefer to see them posted as speculation rather than fact.

[Fanjita]

He deserves to make a little bit of cash for his effort in my opinion.

I'm all for that, but it ought to either be done openly and honestly, or without complaint about others who do the same.

[akuma2000]

So if I understand this right if news is posted on this oh so "evil" (in one person's opinion) website then it won't be posted here? I understand that this is Wraggster's website and he can do whatever he wants to but it seems like it will only hurt the site. That other site isn't going to give a rat's a$$ weather or not this site links to them or not. They will still get the visitors they get and run their site the same way nothing will change.

The average PSP homebrew user doesn't know or care about all this drama in the scene. All they care about is the games and programs to make their PSP great. This is a site dedicated to informing users of all the newest stuff for their PSP right, so shouldn't that be the main focus?

Anyway I know if I was a coder and one site was offering me money to release my stuff on their site and another wasn't I'd go with the money one. If that makes me a bad person then so be it. Most coders aren't in it for the money but if someone is going to offer it then what's the harm. It might encourage others to start coding and then everyone wins.

[ish420ism]

It seems like recently, DCEMU is on a counterproductive slope. I'm not diggin it very much. I've visit ********** every day now, knowing that I might get a chance to converse with my favorite coders in the scene. All this mud slinging coming from DCEMU is a real turnoff. Sounds like a bunch of whiny kids.
Censoring the word (MAX CONSOLE) like you do with cuss words is sooo weak. I wouldn't be surprised if FAJINTA and others were to abandon DCEMU with all this trash talk going on here

[Shadowblind]

I really don't care if Dark_Alex himself said this was ok, I will never think paying coders to release on one site and sustain from releasing on another for publicity can even remotely be right. Greedy, yes, right, no.

BTW: Your coding for a console made by SCE. You wanna sell it (legally) for a profit, you run it

yes, that is bribery. Thats what its called.

[Bestwick]

Wake up kiddies! It's called "capitalism"...ever heard of it?

The site in question is paying coders for the release exclusivity and not the coding service itself. I believe it to be fully within a site's right to pay to attract more visitors. Many sites, magazines, game companies, stores, etc do exactly the same thing.

It seems like recently, DCEMU is on a counterproductive slope. I'm not diggin it very much. I've visit ********** every day now, knowing that I might get a chance to converse with my favorite coders in the scene. All this mud slinging coming from DCEMU is a real turnoff. Sounds like a bunch of whiny kids.
Censoring the word (MAX CONSOLE) like you do with cuss words is sooo weak. I wouldn't be surprised if FAJINTA and others were to abandon DCEMU with all this trash talk going on here
I fully agree. I go to where the news is and to hell with anybody who tells me not to talk about/visit a site because they have a personal problem with a certain site's actions. I'm not involved in your silly little war so don't expect me to play along.

Wraggster, this is plea: How about providing us with the great news you guys have in the past and cut out the "piss-taking" of certain sites every time the chance presents itself? By making a policy of not posting news on any exclusives to the other site you are in essence encouraging people to visit that site to catch up on the news you would purposely leave out.

Disclaimer: I'm neither a part of Max Console nor a regular visitor to their site...just a DCemu fan tired of the shit flinging war on the news and PSP homebrew fronts.

[jonezybaby]

im no coder but if i were i love this site well loads that if i were 2 release sumthing, i would give all rights to DCEmu anyways without bein bribed.

[ish420ism]

I think this is enough of this thread.

[brakken]

@ fanjita ...

Heh, I've narrowed it down to the person responsible. He has a history of leaking stuff too ...