ELSPA joins in fight against R4 copying device

[Shrygue]

via Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/02/08/elspa-joins-in-fight-against-r4-copying-device/)


We already know that Nintendo alone can't smash all the R4 devices that allow for easy downloading and piracy of DS games. But could the aid of Europe's ELSPA help Nintendo complete its total smashing plan? Probably not, but that hasn't stopped the European trade organization from lending its help to Nintendo in battling the widely available device.

How exactly they'll help isn't yet clear, though. In a cryptically vague statement to MCV, ELSPA said they were "evaluating the R4 game copying device" and "working closely with [Nintendo] to consider the next step in the UK." While that statement doesn't reveal any concrete plans, it also doesn't rule out any potential "next step." S.W.A.T. team raids, tanks in the streets, nuclear strikes --they're all potential piracy-battling strategies that aren't eliminated by this statement. Pirates, start digging your fallout shelters ... NOW!

[Pilot_51]

The R4 isn't a "game copying device" and it's not the source of piracy. They need to go for the devices that actually do copy licensed games, not the devices that help fuel the homebrew community. But of course, Nintendo could care less about the homebrew community and they want to snuff out the pirates even if it means snuffing out legal homebrewers with them. I don't blame Nintendo for their actions, I blame pirates and I think they deserve all the punishment Nintendo throws at them.

[williew705]

I am sure they don't mind shutting down the homebrew community either. Some people are developing original games and ideas that bury the current line of Nintedo's offerings.

[____anders____]

hehe, i'm gonna hide in my bombshelter for the rest of my life with my ds lite and r4 ;P

[spinal_cord]

The R4 isn't a "game copying device" and it's not the source of piracy. They need to go for the devices that actually do copy licensed games, not the devices that help fuel the homebrew community

You say that, but R4 has far better commercial compatibility that it does homebrew computability hens the name AAARRRRGGGHHHH4!
Homebrew does not seem to be the priority of the R4 (or most other cards for that matter), if the card manufacturers stressed and indeed stuck to being 'homebrew devices' there would not be thses arguments in the first place.

[Eyedunno]

I was just going to say pretty much what Pilot_51 said. I challenge them to copy some games with just an R4, and then we'll talk. Or how about downloading some games with an R4? Either one would be interesting.

[spinal_cord]

how about downloading some games with an R4? Either one would be interesting.

Thats like saying you'd only consider movie piracy a problem if you could download movies using a DVD player. The fact that people are able to play downloaded games on hardware is the problem.

[Pilot_51]

Some people are developing original games and ideas that bury the current line of Nintedo's offerings.So true. I've almost completely stopped playing my licensed games once I got my R4. I do however still want some official games and I got Phantom Hourglass for Christmas (it was on my wish list), but once I get bored of those games I go back to the homebrew and rarely look back. It's sort of a shame but in the end I think the homebrew community will come out strong and become separated from piracy and Nintendo will find a way to get along with the homebrew community without ripping people off (I hope).


You say that, but R4 has far better commercial compatibility that it does homebrew computability hens the name AAARRRRGGGHHHH4!
Homebrew does not seem to be the priority of the R4 (or most other cards for that matter), if the card manufacturers stressed and indeed stuck to being 'homebrew devices' there would not be thses arguments in the first place.That's why I'm not going to promote the R4 any more. I mean the last 4 firmware updates only added support for commercial games and I'm still waiting for the SDHC support that they promised 4 versions ago.
If anyone knows of a card that focuses on homebrew, I'd like to know.


Thats like saying you'd only consider movie piracy a problem if you could download movies using a DVD player. The fact that people are able to play downloaded games on hardware is the problem.I think he's getting at what's being attacked rather than what's causing the problem. DVD players work just like an R4 and they can play pirated movies, but nobody is attacking the DVD players because of piracy.

[Spidery_Yoda]

If they take my R4, they'll take my jEnesisDS :(.

If they had any sense, they'd go after the sites/people who upload their games onto the internet if they want to stop piracy. Not incredibly handy pieces of hardware like the R4.

[williew705]

I like my R4, and my MMD. With a program a guy developed for the MMD, I was able to back up all of my commercial carts, and put them with save files on my R4. I can now take all of my games with me on one cart. That is handy, and convenient.

[Hypershell]

Homebrew does not seem to be the priority of the R4 (or most other cards for that matter)While I will give you that, and I don't doubt there are quite a few manufacturers who know full well that a good deal of revenue is coming from illegal uses, there are legitimate reasons for wanting commercial compatibility. Backups, sheer convenience of not having to risk losing multiple carts, and game mods for personal use.

Yes, I despise piracy, but I don't believe that attacking hardware also enjoyed by legitimate players is the way to do it. For that matter you don't even need *any* Nintendo hardware to pirate most DS games, anyway, you can do it on your PC. Nintendo would be wise to attack the ROM distributors instead. You can't stop them all any more than you can smash every R4, but when knowledge of Google is all you need to track them down, and Nintendo does nothing, you know where their priorities really are.


if the card manufacturers stressed and indeed stuck to being 'homebrew devices' there would not be thses arguments in the first place.Now that, is not true. Nintendo already shut down Games N' Music, which has no commercial compatibility. That WAS advertised as (and is in hardware) an exclusively homebrew device, and they wanted it gone anyway. Nintendo does not want unlicensed developers on their consoles, period, don't let the piracy talk fool you. They will not accept any business for their consoles which was not authorized by them, so long as there's anything they can do about it. They have in the past attacked rentals, cheat devices, and imports (unsuccessful on the earlier two).

[Seven7]

Nintendo already shut down Games N' Music, which has no commercial compatibility. That WAS advertised as (and is in hardware) an exclusively homebrew device, and they wanted it gone anyway.

Because supposidly the Games N' Music card used code from nintendo without autherization, apperently to boot the card. It was direct software piracy in a "commercial" hardware product. They deserved that one for being so stupid about it.


Nintendo does not want unlicensed developers on their consoles, period, don't let the piracy talk fool you.


This is closer to the truth, however not quite. As technically, it's still piracy. The Nintendo DS was designed to run software developed with Nintendo's Dev. tools, on Nintendo approved dev hardware, nothing else. Now, nintendo probrably dosen't care about homebrew, and with software sales as ungodly high as they are, the piracy threat probrably isn't scaring them as much as the mass media want you to think. However.

And this is where it gets tricky,

Big name devers, say for example, Activision, or Sega, or any big names that program for the DS, have official dev kits from nintendo, they have to in order to get that wonderful seal of approval (there are apperently flags in the code for this). Well, what about smaller game companies that might now have the expendeture for a Nintendo official kit? Well, typically, they can borrow one, for lack of better terms, from whomever does their publishing. This is of course assumeing whomever does their publishing has them. This is stuff designed with licenses to make money in mind, so of course it's going to be expensive beyond typical consumer costs. Hundereds to even Thousands of dollers depending on what your deving for. (anyone have a price point on DS dev kits? Just curious).

Now, however, we have these $40 flash carts. Nintendo's primary fear is that software companies, actuall companies, will put more money into these carts than the official dev kits. Thus, cutting into sales of the official dev software/hardware.

Why the R4DS is being singled out above newer/better cards is beyond me, however to say that piracy plays no part in this whould be incorrect, as technically, coding homebrew games is piracy in its own right. Of course since it's strictly non-profit non-commercial (almost always free), it dosen't cut into any of Nintendo's (or any other company's) profits, and thus, slips under the radar.

[ChaoticanarchyX]

So THAT'S why I can't find any Games'n Music at my local Bestbuy. I didn't think Nintendo was going all out like that. hmm... This is why I bought an R4 a few nights ago XD

[Eyedunno]

Thats like saying you'd only consider movie piracy a problem if you could download movies using a DVD player. The fact that people are able to play downloaded games on hardware is the problem.
But that's not what I said at all. I was simply pointing out their misleading propaganda in calling it a "game copying device."

It would indeed be similar to calling a DVD player a "movie copying device". There are devices that can be used for copying games (I can do it on my SuperCard, for one), but the R4 isn't one of them.

Of course R4s are used by pirates (just as DVD players and iPods are), but they're definitely not used FOR piracy. See the difference yet?

[spinal_cord]

Ah, but imagine if you dvd player would play pirated movies better than it plays home movies... it would be recommended more to a pirate than to some guy who want to play his home movies.

[Seven7]

Ah, but imagine if you dvd player would play pirated movies better than it plays home movies... it would be recommended more to a pirate than to some guy who want to play his home movies.

I can see the relevency to the piracy argument there, but what exactly does that have to do with the R4? Nothing ever gets better compatability than the official carts, since each one is nearly custom made per each game. Not litterally custom made mind you, they follow inderstry standards and such, but you get the idea.


But that's not what I said at all. I was simply pointing out their misleading propaganda in calling it a "game copying device."

It would indeed be similar to calling a DVD player a "movie copying device". There are devices that can be used for copying games (I can do it on my SuperCard, for one), but the R4 isn't one of them.

Of course R4s are used by pirates (just as DVD players and iPods are), but they're definitely not used FOR piracy. See the difference yet?

This puzzles me as well, i'm also puzzled as to why they are soley targeting the R4. There are cards out there that support the SDHC standard, and do a few other (some whould argue better) things, yet the R4 seems to be the sole target here. Here's something else, if, god (or insert local/personal diety here) forbid, they do ceise production of the R4 (and M3 simply by extention, they are made by the same manifactures), there will be 2 or more flash cart developers stepping up to fill the void. This could make thier nonexistant problem worse. I wonder if they realize, or even care...

[Rebrek]

If anyone knows of a card that focuses on homebrew, I'd like to know.

The Datel Games N' Music is strictly homebrew, though it has terribly slow loading times and no SDHC support... or rumble support... And DsLinux screws up because of the DLDI. Other than that it's pretty good. It's the only card I have and I don't have any more reason than those to complain.

[spinal_cord]

What are you talking about, no rumble support? it is a slot 1 card, rumble is slot-2, it should have absolutly nothing to do with the slot-1 card is being used.

[TechRat]

Nintendo already shut down Games N' Music, which has no commercial compatibility.

I just bought a GnM from Wal-Mart in December of 2007. I was just there a few days ago and they still had them for sale, so I'm surprised to hear about this. When did this happen? Do you have more information or a link to an article about it?

[Tegamal]

On the lines of the DVD Player issue: What about all these DVD players that play Divx Videos? I've seen very good copies of movies on Divx, so this would fall into that category.

What about DVD Burners in PCs? Those will make copies of DVDs (with software support, no different than the R4's Firmware). No one flat out says "I use my DVD Burner for backups of my PC data", they are mainly for copying movies.

I make backups of my kids' DVDs, because at $20 a pop for a Disney flick, I can't afford to have them forgetting to put their movies back in the cases or whatever. Some people would say "Teach your kids to clean up after themselves", which they do for the most part, but they are, in the end, children. They aren't perfect & I never expect them to be.

Would this be considered Piracy? Some say yes because I am copying the disks. Others say No, since I legally purchased the DVD in the first place, but make backups for personal use, not for resale.

[Pilot_51]

No one flat out says "I use my DVD Burner for backups of my PC data", they are mainly for copying movies.That's arguable. It may be the common use, but not everyone uses burners for copying movies or even remotely illegal activity.
I use my burner mostly for burning legal copies of software (e.g. Linux), music from the games that I own, or non-commercial movies (e.g. machinima). I don't even use my burner for backing up my data, especially since I heard that CD-R's aren't nearly as reliable as advertised (~2 years vs. 100 years). I'd say the most borderline thing I've used it for was to copy a few owned commercial movies so I could convert them into DPG format and watch them on my DS, but never to burn copies.