My opinion on cracking FW

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Originally Posted by robotdevil

I'm still against piracy. And if all you care about is homebrew why bother to update in the first place? I run a 2.00 PSP because I can't give up my NesterJ. I'd like to play things like Mega Man X, but it's just not worth it to upgrade. Secondly, you don't OWN your PSP, you lease the rights to use it. Read your EULA (End User License Agreement) in the back of your manual and you'll see. Sony, for all legal purposes, still owns the PSP unit and all software involved. Any use of the system outside it's intended purposes can carry civil and/or criminal penalties. As does modifying the code. There are a number of threads about this very thing. I personally think it sucks, but I also understand the companies desire to maintain control of their 2 billion dollar investment (Yes Sony spends alot of money in R&D).

So while I will keep looking for ways around Sony's control, I'm also not going to bitch about them updating their product. Fight the system, don't just bitch about it.

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you've made some good points, but I do have to ask..

what manual are you looking at? I bought PSP with firmware v2.0, and after your statement that we're basically "just leasing" the device from sony, I decided to check the manual.

and nowhere in the entire book is an ELUA..not at the end of the english section, and not at the end of the manual...only a warranty.

now I'm not saying that modding/hacking your psp won't violate the warranty...that's pretty much a given. but as to it being illegal? I have serious doubts about that claim.

based off of already documented laws, the only thing that would be illegal is sharing, or providing code (including the OS) copyrighted by Sony. that means that it would be illegal to publish orignal or modified source code, or original or modified OS files.

it is your legal right to do whatever you please with your PSP..mod it, hack it, throw it across the room..use it to control a nuclear reactor..it doesn't matter. as long as you're not infringing on sony's copyrights (or using it for illegal purposes obviously) there's nothing Sony or the law can do about it. however if you provide (for free or at a cost) software or hardware copyrighted by Sony..then they can take legal action.

and if what you say is indeed true...I seriously think that Sony is living in a dream land, because there's absolutely no basis for this belief of theirs.

EDIT: I think I've found where you got your ideas from...EULA counts for the PSP online, and (where you got your idea for "leasing") ELUA for the 'Public Beta Test Program' where this kind of 'leasing' idea would make sense...

I agree. I think it is just plain wrong to be sued by a company for taking the faceplate off of a piece of equipment I payed cold, hard cash for.

Stepping back into this hot potato, I can clarify that by removing any part of the PSP or any other piece of equipment produced under licence is not actually illegal.

You will immediately void your warranty, which is the only legal obligation that any manufacturer holds with the customer in terms of ensuring that their equipment remains operational for a specific period of time.

I believe that this is different in the US, however in Europe the warranty automatically covers most items for 2 yrs, but only 1 yr in the UK (European laws are under review to be brought into the UK shortly).

Taking the face plate, off (as you put it) or infact completely disassembling would not be considered illegal.

As soon as you begin to 'engineer' the unit in terms of modification or enhancement with any product that is not licensed by a manufacturer triggers the section of law you mentioned in relation to backward engineering or rendering hardware/software.

It is illegal to adapt or modify the equipment - period! The rights of the manufacture & design remain with the manufacturer, which I personally think is what our previous poster was saying about 'leasing'. You don't actually lease the equipment as it is owned by the purchaser, yet the rights remain fully owned by the manufacturer, who obviously go to extreme lengths to protect them.

Other than the cost of development equipment & possibly being considered a legitimate developer and the notion that any disgarded or under-developed software is fair game, nobody has really provided a reasonable explination as to why they feel their actions are valid?

If you are on a website sharing your ideas, posting your findings, asking others for their input, then I think any manufacturer would reasonably consider your (or anyone looking at your ideas) as potentially a threat to their coyright as I have already seen people on this website posting their updates for anyone to download. That's precisely the kind of activity I think the manufacturer should be allowed to discourage and stop if necessary as it's distribution.

I particularly like the arguement that once you purchase an item it is yours to do whatever you like with it, as frankly that really isn't the case. It is clearly understood that if an end user uses any product for illegal purposes that they violate the terms of use.

It's a little like the premise that if you own a gun, you can store it in your own home, must ensure (in most countries) that you have a license and only use the gun in sporting situations (such as firing ranges). The moment you wander into the steet waving your Magnum at little ol' shop keepers face, you have violated those conditions and face criminal proceedings.

Take your PSP to bits, start messing around with it's guts and engineering mechanisms and I hate to inform you that you will indeed face criminal proceedings if caught. Getting caught just messing around at home is highly unlikely. It's only when you start to demonstrate your developments that anyone would be interested.

Just how closely certain bodies protect their interests is quite interesting. I found out on eBay when I tried to sell a PS2 with an internal harddrive. I started to get emails from the likes of FACT asking whether there were any software titles on the harddrive.

You might like to know that I used to work very closely with copyrighting issues for a the recording industry. I am no lawyer, but I do know what is legal under certain conditions as I was responsible for ensuring that as a business we never broke copyright.

Okay, leaving this arguement aside as I think we are looking at the same thing from a different perspective.

Can you really imagine discovering a loophole in a piece of OS or firmware and NOT posting your findings for other homebrew developers to use?

Is that not the purpose of this website? To share ideas and provide support?

In which case your arguement that it's only illegal activity if you 'spread the word' and it is no longer just for your own pleasure doesn't hold.

Personally, if I was angry with the likes of Sony and felt that they had under developed their product or were disregarding the feelings of an entire underground movement of homebrew developers, then I would possibly feel a great sense of justice in finding a mistake they had made, an error or loophole that could be exploited to assist your fellow developers.

Would you (or I) really keep that information to yourself? Can you really say, hand on heart that it wouldn't just appear as some freeware download somewhere, like millions of other hacked software titles or OS?

I would argue that some people may feel that this is a crusade against the conglomerates who dominate and control a market that 'should' by more open and available (like in the good old computer days) and in doing so they feel justified in posting their findings and opening up the possibility of others hacking / developing the systems.

Look at the famous Xbox hack, it took a matter of weeks if I remember rightly. Suddenly the impregnable, over protected bastion of console technology (an easy target with Bill Gates at the helm) was wide open!

Is it not just a bit of back patting? A means of self gratification and sticking your fingers up to the manufacturers who make wild claims of how robust and secure their technology is?

If not, can I then ask what precisely the homebrew & developing scene actually adds to the gaming market place? I've never even seen a homebrew title for my Dreamcast, Xbox, PS2 or 360 (obviously).

Still playing devil's advocate here, but genuinely interested as I also saw another thread on this site entitled "Homebrew - slowing the development of consoles or not?" which is possibly where I should have posted this query.

Thanks for replying!

Okay, from the thread responses I can see that there is a division between those who feel that piracy is justifiable and those who feel that it is an illegal activity and the law should be upheld.

Asking yet another potentially naive question in that case, is it possible for homebrew developers to produce software titles (be it games or otherwise) that will safely, automatically and effectively run as smoothly on the systems (in this case games consoles) without resorting to the use of illegal practices?

In other words, can you just piece together software titles that would run like any other piece of mass produced software, or do you need to manipulate either existing OS / firmware in order that the games console recognises the homebrew software?

I only ask because I know that in the past it was possible to just stick anything into most units and it would work. With the advent of the likes of cartridge readers etc that must have changed as you would need to produce a chip and have the cartridge PCB available.

As time has progressed I understand that manufacturers have increased the level of protection to avoid any 'unauthorised' coding being potentially loaded into their products.

If the answer to my query is yes, we are required to subvert the product / firmware or OS to use titles you are producing, then I can see some reasoning behind your arguement that manufacturers are locking you out of being able to produce material.

Can perhaps someone clarify? Thanks!

Mostly what I was talking about was not technically illegal, but could carry heavy penalties in civil court. And I'm speaking ONLY of the US. And I'll admit, to say that we only lease the PSP was a bit of a streatch, I was going for a bit of exaggeration to get the point across. Parris put it more correctly by saying that the manufacturers still own the rights to the hardware and we are not allowed to engineer modifications for it. We can take it apart, but to what purpose if we can't do anything? Personally I like engineering new things for stuff, but I still respect the manufacturers rights and keep it to myself (mostly). Anyway, just thought I'd clarify that. And thanks to Parris for taking the time to write a more precise anser to that.

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Originally Posted by robotdevil

thanks to Parris for taking the time to write a more precise answer to that.

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You are more than welcome, although if it was clearer & more precise then it was by accident as you guys are far more technically adapt and skilled than I am.

I posted a very similar query relating to copyright and people's views on it on one of the Xbox forums to find out what general users & gamers think rather than those potentially involved in developing homebrew material.

You may be interested to read some of those comments, but I don't want to fill up yet more of this threads space as I realise I am piggy backing and changing the subject.

The thread is still running and currently has over 500 readers, 5 pages of responses and counting!

To say it is a hot topic would be an understatement.

Most users seem to accept copyright infrigement as part and parcel of modern living. The internet blew it wide open and means anything is fair game.

The general concencus is that the gaming (or other entertainment industries) are not really damaged by the piracy as those copying material never had any intention of purchasing the title in the first case.

It's also suggested that the industry makes enough money from legitimate users to sustain itself regardless.

Homebrew is seen (whether rightly or wrongly) as an essential aspect of gaming as it opens up possibilities that the manufacturers have either failed to develop or refuse to develop for various reasons.

Several PSP users suggested that as a standard model the PSP was a waste of money, but by using homebrew software they can effectively use it for streaming TV, Video and playing emulations of various other manufacturers material. I.E. Nintendo games in this instance.

It was also suggested that the manufacturers and the industry benefits from additional sales created by piracy. The try before you buy option, which leads to users purchasing the software titles they enjoy and want to spend money on.

On the otherside there was a very long debate contradicting practically all of the above.

The cost of DEV kits and locking out independent software & hardware developers was also touched on.

Ultimately there are two camps. Those who feel that copyright infringement is completely illegal, has no benefits and is costing the industry & consumer very dearly.

It was suggested that without having to tackle piracy that the entertainment industries would have a larger profit margin to use in successful R&D and therefore produce material of better quality more often.

The bulk of replies relating to copyright felt that certain forms of copyright infringement were inevitable and really the fault of the manufacture through the cost of hardware and software, letting the consumer down (i.e. raising expectations and producing rubbish) and restricting end users use of a particular product.

Again the 'it's mine, I can do what I like with it' was often suggested.

There is no clear answer. The industry wants us to adhere to their rules and regulations and frankly I fully appreciate why.

As I stated when discussing with someone their joy of being able to use Nintendo games on their PSP, surely Nintendo already produce a handheld, therefore not only does Nintendo lose out on the retail value of that person purchasing a console, but also the value of the software.

I still maintain my own impression that I appreciate why homebrew occurs. The fact that piracy is rife is a serious worry to both the industry and the legal purchasers of hardware & software as ultimately the honest user pays the penalty in hiked prices.

Over the course of the discussions however I have come to understand the frustrations of a seriously talented bunch of technically minded people who 2 decades ago would potentially have been industry leaders rather than illegal outsiders.

There was a time that software houses were more common than chip shops and that has been possibly controlled and damaged too much by piracy and the industry itself. If as you say DEV kits are outwith the budget of anyone other than the industry itself, then over course too many talents people are locked out and look to breaking the hardware to gain entry.

Perhaps it would be of greater benefit to the manufacturers to consider cheaper development kits?

Instead of tackling the issue of piracy and homebrew, it appears (in my limited capacity and knowledge) that the industry is currently targetting the wrong end of the piracy chain. It is surely too late by the time the discs are being fired off a production line or the firmware / OS or software has been placed on the Internet.

For an $11billion industry, piracy may actually seem like mere chicken feed, yet I get the impression that it hits them harder than they admit rather than it being less (as many responders suggested).

This led to a more general discussion on piracy and touched on the obvious damage caused to the music industry over the last few years. Having been involved (at a very marginal position) in the music industry I have experience of just how damaging loss of earning can be to such an industry.

The trouble with piracy is that the manufacturers place their trust in the end user to utilise their product within the guidelines and legal framework stated in the terms and conditions. Knowing full well that a certain percentage will immeditately toss the legal aspects to one side and attempt to backwards engineer the software / hardware, the industry further protects itself by trying to ensure that it is as difficult as they can possibly make it to break their codes etc.

It is a perpetual battle of wills and one which is clearly here to stay.

There appears to be a great deal of satisfaction gained on either side of the camp from those who create the unbreakable and those who destroy the barriers and prove that the lock can be picked.

It's really just a game in itself, existing only to serve curiosity in the minds of those talented enough to break the locks. After the lock is broken however, the floodgate opens and no matter how innocent the initial intention to just 'teach the manufacturer a lesson' may seem in the lock pickers mind, there are thousand willing to open that lock and use it for far less legal means.

The net result is that the lock picker can face stiff legal challenges and the industry knows that they have to redesign the locks. A costly piece of development I am sure you will agree.

Sony may be large enough to withstand the leakage caused by open coding, but I wonder how many manufacturers (such as Sega) just couldn't withstand the continual onslaught.

Personally I miss Sega as a hardware developer and I hate to think of all the software manufacturers who went to the wall for no real reason.

Worth thinking about perhaps - yet I can understand the fascination in the mind of the lock picker and they will always exist no matter how hard the industry tries to stop them.

Who pays however?

I do believe wholeheartedly that the manufacturers need to reliquish a certain amount of control as far as independent developers go in order to legalise the actions of a vast army of people who have the talent to bring a lot of positive development to the industry.