ELSPA joins in fight against R4 copying device

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Originally Posted by spinal_cord

Homebrew does not seem to be the priority of the R4 (or most other cards for that matter)

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While I will give you that, and I don't doubt there are quite a few manufacturers who know full well that a good deal of revenue is coming from illegal uses, there are legitimate reasons for wanting commercial compatibility. Backups, sheer convenience of not having to risk losing multiple carts, and game mods for personal use.

Yes, I despise piracy, but I don't believe that attacking hardware also enjoyed by legitimate players is the way to do it. For that matter you don't even need *any* Nintendo hardware to pirate most DS games, anyway, you can do it on your PC. Nintendo would be wise to attack the ROM distributors instead. You can't stop them all any more than you can smash every R4, but when knowledge of Google is all you need to track them down, and Nintendo does nothing, you know where their priorities really are.

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if the card manufacturers stressed and indeed stuck to being 'homebrew devices' there would not be thses arguments in the first place.

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Now that, is not true. Nintendo already shut down Games N' Music, which has no commercial compatibility. That WAS advertised as (and is in hardware) an exclusively homebrew device, and they wanted it gone anyway. Nintendo does not want unlicensed developers on their consoles, period, don't let the piracy talk fool you. They will not accept any business for their consoles which was not authorized by them, so long as there's anything they can do about it. They have in the past attacked rentals, cheat devices, and imports (unsuccessful on the earlier two).

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Originally Posted by Hypershell

Nintendo already shut down Games N' Music, which has no commercial compatibility. That WAS advertised as (and is in hardware) an exclusively homebrew device, and they wanted it gone anyway.

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Because supposidly the Games N' Music card used code from nintendo without autherization, apperently to boot the card. It was direct software piracy in a "commercial" hardware product. They deserved that one for being so stupid about it.

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Originally Posted by Hypershell

Nintendo does not want unlicensed developers on their consoles, period, don't let the piracy talk fool you.

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This is closer to the truth, however not quite. As technically, it's still piracy. The Nintendo DS was designed to run software developed with Nintendo's Dev. tools, on Nintendo approved dev hardware, nothing else. Now, nintendo probrably dosen't care about homebrew, and with software sales as ungodly high as they are, the piracy threat probrably isn't scaring them as much as the mass media want you to think. However.

And this is where it gets tricky,

Big name devers, say for example, Activision, or Sega, or any big names that program for the DS, have official dev kits from nintendo, they have to in order to get that wonderful seal of approval (there are apperently flags in the code for this). Well, what about smaller game companies that might now have the expendeture for a Nintendo official kit? Well, typically, they can borrow one, for lack of better terms, from whomever does their publishing. This is of course assumeing whomever does their publishing has them. This is stuff designed with licenses to make money in mind, so of course it's going to be expensive beyond typical consumer costs. Hundereds to even Thousands of dollers depending on what your deving for. (anyone have a price point on DS dev kits? Just curious).

Now, however, we have these $40 flash carts. Nintendo's primary fear is that software companies, actuall companies, will put more money into these carts than the official dev kits. Thus, cutting into sales of the official dev software/hardware.

Why the R4DS is being singled out above newer/better cards is beyond me, however to say that piracy plays no part in this whould be incorrect, as technically, coding homebrew games is piracy in its own right. Of course since it's strictly non-profit non-commercial (almost always free), it dosen't cut into any of Nintendo's (or any other company's) profits, and thus, slips under the radar.

So THAT'S why I can't find any Games'n Music at my local Bestbuy. I didn't think Nintendo was going all out like that. hmm... This is why I bought an R4 a few nights ago XD

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Originally Posted by spinal_cord

Thats like saying you'd only consider movie piracy a problem if you could download movies using a DVD player. The fact that people are able to play downloaded games on hardware is the problem.

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But that's not what I said at all. I was simply pointing out their misleading propaganda in calling it a "game copying device."

It would indeed be similar to calling a DVD player a "movie copying device". There are devices that can be used for copying games (I can do it on my SuperCard, for one), but the R4 isn't one of them.

Of course R4s are used by pirates (just as DVD players and iPods are), but they're definitely not used FOR piracy. See the difference yet?

Ah, but imagine if you dvd player would play pirated movies better than it plays home movies... it would be recommended more to a pirate than to some guy who want to play his home movies.

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Originally Posted by spinal_cord

Ah, but imagine if you dvd player would play pirated movies better than it plays home movies... it would be recommended more to a pirate than to some guy who want to play his home movies.

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I can see the relevency to the piracy argument there, but what exactly does that have to do with the R4? Nothing ever gets better compatability than the official carts, since each one is nearly custom made per each game. Not litterally custom made mind you, they follow inderstry standards and such, but you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by Eyedunno

But that's not what I said at all. I was simply pointing out their misleading propaganda in calling it a "game copying device."

It would indeed be similar to calling a DVD player a "movie copying device". There are devices that can be used for copying games (I can do it on my SuperCard, for one), but the R4 isn't one of them.

Of course R4s are used by pirates (just as DVD players and iPods are), but they're definitely not used FOR piracy. See the difference yet?

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This puzzles me as well, i'm also puzzled as to why they are soley targeting the R4. There are cards out there that support the SDHC standard, and do a few other (some whould argue better) things, yet the R4 seems to be the sole target here. Here's something else, if, god (or insert local/personal diety here) forbid, they do ceise production of the R4 (and M3 simply by extention, they are made by the same manifactures), there will be 2 or more flash cart developers stepping up to fill the void. This could make thier nonexistant problem worse. I wonder if they realize, or even care...

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Originally Posted by Pilot_51

If anyone knows of a card that focuses on homebrew, I'd like to know.

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The Datel Games N' Music is strictly homebrew, though it has terribly slow loading times and no SDHC support... or rumble support... And DsLinux screws up because of the DLDI. Other than that it's pretty good. It's the only card I have and I don't have any more reason than those to complain.

What are you talking about, no rumble support? it is a slot 1 card, rumble is slot-2, it should have absolutly nothing to do with the slot-1 card is being used.

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Originally Posted by Hypershell

Nintendo already shut down Games N' Music, which has no commercial compatibility.

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I just bought a GnM from Wal-Mart in December of 2007. I was just there a few days ago and they still had them for sale, so I'm surprised to hear about this. When did this happen? Do you have more information or a link to an article about it?

On the lines of the DVD Player issue: What about all these DVD players that play Divx Videos? I've seen very good copies of movies on Divx, so this would fall into that category.

What about DVD Burners in PCs? Those will make copies of DVDs (with software support, no different than the R4's Firmware). No one flat out says "I use my DVD Burner for backups of my PC data", they are mainly for copying movies.

I make backups of my kids' DVDs, because at $20 a pop for a Disney flick, I can't afford to have them forgetting to put their movies back in the cases or whatever. Some people would say "Teach your kids to clean up after themselves", which they do for the most part, but they are, in the end, children. They aren't perfect & I never expect them to be.

Would this be considered Piracy? Some say yes because I am copying the disks. Others say No, since I legally purchased the DVD in the first place, but make backups for personal use, not for resale.