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the cache will be critical in the attempt, the more you
have the better off you are. especially in the x86 case
to gain speed, you need to keep the heavy code
inside the cache.. which then inturn will get reduced
into "ucodes" inside the pipes. at this point as long
as you don't bounce out of the cache, and flush
the pipes. you'll have that boost that you're going to need.
[quote author=Kamjin link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=30#38 date=07/22/04 at 13:39:15]
To put it nicely... ____ you..
and next time don't use me as a reference unless
you actually know what I've done in the Elec./Comp.
Industry to date.
The point is you ARE trying to bash someone.. That's
right we do it for free.. I don't think you understand
that concept. unlike the other's I'm not here to make
an excuse for you.. If you want me to code an efficent
scatter/gather dma engine for the PVR, I'll do so
add the graphics people, main engine design guys
sure.. tommorow! but who's gonna pay the salaries?
my house doesn't pay itself? and I'm not going to loose
it just so you can play your pirated rom, on a great
emulator..
When you get old enough you'll understand.. do you
take your excess free time, and read the lastest
specs/etc.. so that you can excell at your job, or
do you make a game so that the odd teenager
can sit back and flame you for no appearant reason.
And if you disagree with me please post this on
other sites and ask the other coders what they
think of the subject.. even the Zsnes team.[/quote]
:round of applause:
One thing to note, unless you have the tools yourself to do emulators, homebrew ports etc, then really your opinions wont have much credence.
I myself respect massively those who have made and continue to make the dreamcast the greatest console ever.
::Takes a Bow, and get's off the soapbox::
Hola, Don't think I'm mad at you.. I'm just driving the
point real hard. Like Wraggster was saying if you aren't
doing it, then don't critisize it.
instead of being a couch critic get on the wagon
and simply help..
I mean if you can't code.. then offer help on drawing, music, testing, constructive critisism, writing reviews,
spreading news, co-ordinating.. the list is endless.
The whole point of this is to enjoy it. It's a hobby.
no-one rakes in money from this..
If you and to see a Zsknights team on the DC.. then
get going and start recruiting..
I've been wanting to code for the DC for the longest time and I know this is gonna sound stupid but the damn tool chain is so hard to setup compared to anything else I've worked with before. Hell the XDK setups no problem is no wonder people rather work on xbox its easier.
Yeah.. that's almost a given if you haven't had
enough unix background.. and it's probably the #1
deturent from coding on the DC, but it's almost a prereq.
to know your way around this stuff if you're gonna
work in more than just databases, sql, asp, iis etc..
Once you start toying around you'll see exactly what
we're up against.. in essence the DC to us is litteraly
an 80's computer with a really good blitter, there's
no easy API there.. but that's actually what makes
it interesting, if you need something.. you gotta
code it yourself..
also we're not blind.. the dc scene needs some
original new stuff to come out, the only way that's
gonna happen is if more people get involved in
some way.
Below are a bug or scripts/tuts.
I haven't tried any of these but I'm sure people
will jump in, with some good suggestions
Blue crab's install script w/mingw
this is pretty much a leave it all night
script, in the morning you can dev.
http://ljsdcdev.sunsite.dk/tools.php
Hanger11 step by step
http://www.hangar-eleven.de/en/devdc-index.html
Teeny Tutorial
http://www.consolevision.com/forums/...num=1033424733
and there's the DCFREEDEV as well from what I
understand just unzip it, and you're off..
[quote author=Hola link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=30#44 date=07/22/04 at 21:18:42]I've been wanting to code for the DC for the longest time and I know this is gonna sound stupid but the damn tool chain is so hard to setup compared to anything else I've worked with before. Hell the XDK setups no problem is no wonder people rather work on xbox its easier.[/quote]
People want to work on the Xbox because it is new and they have no want to be challanged. Why do something that is difficult when you could do something sloppy and get away with it? Its no technical achievement to get things like an SNES emu or Genesis emu or game playing fullspeed on the Xbox. The dreamcast however... now there is a challange.
Also, Hola. Just ask how to do it and we can tell you. Not only are there many tutorials for it, but there are many friendly coders willing to help you if you just ask. But if you give up on just getting the toolchain setup, frankly i dont see how you could learn how to use KOS. Â*I had trouble getting it setup at first and just went with one of the many alternative setups for DCdev out there. There are at least 4 different setups out there that are all different, and two of them have nice easy installers. AND they are all legal.
Oh yea, that is one thing that I cant recall being touched upon yet. Xbox dev usually uses the illegal toolkit which you shouldnt even be talking about using because its ILLEGAL. DC development is seen as a legitamate form of homebrew because it uses all free tools as opposed to xbox dev, where the xdk is used rampantly without and sort of regard towards its legality.
Edit: ooo 1 minute too late. Well, you didnt mention the Pern Projects DevkitDC. Although it is outdated and a bit buggy, for those used to devving with MSVS (as i was) this is the simplest way to start.
I dont think thats fair judgement. I think Xport has had to do assloads of work on some of those emus to get them working right. And this code is far from sloppy.
Actually that's a good point.. when you get the interview
with M$.. you can't tell them I did this real cool
homebrew for the moded XBOX using your XDK..
Only things like the newer Mame sets and NG emulators, N64 and such would go into that category. Anything that can be done on the DC is no problem on the xbox. Note how I used SNES and Genesis as examples instead of Mame and PS or something.
[quote author=Kamjin link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=45#48 date=07/22/04 at 21:44:55]Actually that's a good point.. when you get the interview
with M$.. you can't tell them I did this real cool
homebrew for the moded XBOX using your XDK..[/quote]
Hehe. yet you can say. ah i resisted temptation and did not use your WinCE toolkit in favor of kos =P.
I actually plan on applying for an intership/scholarship program MS has after my first year of college is over.
I've been there a few years ago..mainly for WHQL,
also got a few friends working there..
When you first see it.. you think
"Welcome to Microsoftville"
" Population 2000 caffinated coderz"
by the looks of it they work you to the bone, but
the benifits easily balance that out.. and the other
cool thing if you're into arcade games.. you'll
get a real kick out of the hallways..
It's well worth to do an internship there.. you
litterally will get thrown to the lions, but after you're
done you'll walk out with knowledge you didn't even
think was possible to retain..
It doesnt matter if there devolopement kits are illegal or not coding skill is still coding skill and getting psx to run on xbox was still hard and once DC is runing on Xbox I think you'd be a full to say thats not great coding.
[quote author=Kamjin link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=30#40 date=07/22/04 at 15:58:27]the cache will be critical in the attempt, the more you
have the better off you are. especially in the x86 case
to gain speed, you need to keep the heavy code
inside the cache.. which then inturn will get reduced
into "ucodes" inside the pipes. at this point as long
as you don't bounce out of the cache, and flush
the pipes. you'll have that boost that you're going to need.
[/quote]As I said, the reason I don't think it is relevant is because even if you had 256K of cache (which they don't), you still would have a serious problem getting a decent DC emulator working at all, let alone with sound. The AICA would kill any speed you had. So let's just say that I don't see myself using an Xbox for playing DC games in the forseeable future. (especially since I'd have to obtain images of games, legally or otherwise, if they can't get it to read GDs)
[quote author=Hola link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=45#52 date=07/23/04 at 01:08:54]It doesnt matter if there devolopement kits are illegal or not coding skill is still coding skill and getting psx to run on xbox was still hard and once DC is runing on Xbox I think you'd be a full to say thats not great coding.[/quote]
The day that happens I will sledgehammer a DC and buy an Xbox. No proper emulator of a DC will play fullspeed on an Xbox.
All i would like to say about this XBOX vs DC coders stuff. Â*Is we shouldnt be putting people down for there coding. Â*Everyone has there fair peice of work that is good. Â*Some maybe flop but some are good as i said. Â*As for games making it to the purchase point congrats to the coders who did it. Â*I think for xbox some of those ports and homebrews are amazing. Â*
All i have to say about this bashing thank god people are getting this stuff cause if it wasnt here I wouldnt be here right now or all the other people who download this stuff and come to these forums.
Thanks to all the coders who brought lovely games to both the dc and xbox scene its cause of you people buy more dreamcasts and xbox's and join these forums and give ideas to the coders for new games.
Eric
Not as long as their real names are unknown.. you seeQuote:
It doesnt matter if there devolopement kits are illegal or not coding skill is still coding skill
you can be the worlds best coder, but when you're
filling in your expierience on the resume, you can't
put down something like that. So it as though you've
never actually done it.
Eric,
We're not bashing, we just taking the other side and
discussing the merits, and possiblilty..
our arguements are that it's not possible to have an
exact emulation.. and the merits.. in which the majority
of users will turn it into a warez tool.. it would be nice
if the actually coders would post here as well so we
could have a descent debate..
[quote author=quzar link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=45#54 date=07/23/04 at 05:40:53]
The day that happens I will sledgehammer a DC and buy an Xbox. No proper emulator of a DC will play fullspeed on an Xbox.
[/quote]
Do you count underclocking and light frame skipping unproper?
Proper emulation = more or less exact clock speed, complete or mostly complete opcodes, emulation with the two previous prerequisites of all the processors, nothing faked out.
Improper emulation = incomplete opcode set, purposefully incorrect clock speed, any chip faked, any relatively major feature (noticeable feature) of the system faked or missing, less than 90% compatability with software and at least controller emulation as possible (controller, arcade stick, twinsticks).
Frameskipping applys only to speed, not to the full emulation. Considering light frameskipping would be necessary to only emulate the SH-4 on a 733 p3, I find anything short of heavy frameskipping impossible considering the complexity of the AICA hardware.
I think alot of it will be faked. Especially all of the sound and it will be underclocked for sure. I count good emulation as playable without being noticable.
W00t just got chankast workin on a 486. All I had to do was invert the windows 3.1 drivers then remove the motherboard and throw it out the window. Next I took a band new one, put in a P4 3.2GHz chip 512MB ram 80GB hard drive and a radeon 5700. Installed XP and bingo, it worked!
you probably all were hoping i was dead... BUT IM BACK.
and they first thing to catch my eye on this site was "Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour". Apparently, according to quazar (whom as far as i know, knows his stuff) The DC cannot fully be emulated on the Xbox due to lack of processing power, among other things. I am sure that the xbox has enough juice to do something with the emulator, but the question is, is it really worth it? I see no real point in doing it if its just going to be used by warez kiddies to *possibly* play some games. The chankast cant play many homebrews right now, and even if it could, what would the point of playing them in as bad of quallity as an emulator being ported during its alpha stage.
Nice to be back once again.
Hello & welcome back :)
xBox is too slow.
The SH4 with 200Mhz is comparable fast as the 700MHz x86 of the xBox.
But I'll believe it if someone releases a preview :D
Chris
lol. someone thinks i know something. w00t.
I hate this "OMG its gonna be used for warez" Guess what 95% of emulator users are using the emulators for warez. Get over it. It doesnt make it any less of a reason to make emulator for just warez. Getting a emulator working is still great feat anways.
If it can only be used for warez makes it very different from being able to read real media or not. Since there is obviously no moral or legal way i can appeal to you to understand why its bad for an emulator to only be able to use warez, suffice it to say that discussion of warez and warez related things is not allowed on this site and so we dont want to hear about it if some warez only thing is gonna exist.
but if it can run homebrew then it wont be entirely warez.
there are already DC emulators that can run homebrew.
I dont know if you were here when it first came out but there was a huge controversy because i didnt play homebrew. It would only play commercial games. Homebrew was somehow hacked into it afterwards. I seriously feel that this emulator works a lot off of HLEd stuff and is really then not an effort to document the hardware (the actual purpose of emulators, well most of them and legally) and it dosnt play a lot of homebrew.
[quote author=Hola link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=60#64 date=07/25/04 at 01:25:19]I hate this "OMG its gonna be used for warez" Guess what 95% of emulator users are using the emulators for warez. Get over it. It doesnt make it any less of a reason to make emulator for just warez. Getting a emulator working is still great feat anways.[/quote]
It's the intentions, the authors of mame had the intention, of creating something for the arcade hobbyist.
If you have a broken arcade PCB you could almost repair it just from the source and comments in mame, you also can have access to romsets/proms to get dead boards working again. it's an excellent reference for
jumper/dipswitch settings and lastly you could use your PC to play a game rather than risk having a precious boardset blown by a faulty powersupply. The romsets
were shared long before mame existed, this was mainly
becuase the companies themselves didn't actully have
copies of the the roms, and was done with a partial
blessing from most companies..
When you look at chankcast.. there is no source to assist people to code.. they've even got stuff working in there that no-one to date has figured out. If the mame
team had done a Naomi emulator, then the entire project would be out in the open
But then of course you get to the reason WHY the mame team dosnt do a Naomi emulator. Because of the commercial viability of such a thing. They avoid giving mame the capacity to play games that are still being sold so as to not harm the companies.
Chankast can already load Naomi games now tho. So soon enough people will be playing Naomi. And i'm pretty sure than Chankast will try emulator atomiswave games as they are 100% the same as DC games if you can emulate DC you are emulating Atomiswave.
And that means what? It only shows how much more their ethic deviates from that of the MAME team.
quzar, it may have escaped your notice but 99% of what mame runs is also warez. It doesn't make it excuseable just because some of these games are ancient. If MAME was solely for documenting hardware and didnt want to promote warez then whymake the games playable, why not just have it so it shows the game can run and be done with it?
Many of us also use games like beats of rage which contains a large amount of ripped sprites, how do you think they got these, by running warez roms in neoragex or kawaks. Fact of the matter is where you have emulation you have warez. If you say you aren't doing it for warez reasons then prove you can run them on your emulator, but dont let people play them. Otherwise don't complain about warez.
There are two types of warez. Those that may actually affect something commercially and those that cannot. The roms that mame can run have been held back to only those that are no longer made. This means that the company does not lose money due to mame while they are trying to sell their games. NAOMI and Atomiswave games are still made. There is a big difference between the two.
[quote author=Mental2k link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=60#72 date=07/26/04 at 15:32:53]quzar, it may have escaped your notice but 99% of what mame runs is also warez. It doesn't make it excuseable just because some of these games are ancient. If MAME was solely for documenting hardware and didnt want to promote warez then whymake the games playable, why not just have it so it shows the game can run and be done with it?
Many of us also use games like beats of rage which contains a large amount of ripped sprites, how do you think they got these, by running warez roms in neoragex or kawaks. Â*Fact of the matter is where you have emulation you have warez. If you say you aren't doing it for warez reasons then prove you can run them on your emulator, but dont let people play them. Otherwise don't complain about warez.[/quote]
While you might be correct, it does not mean we should take any part in it. Sprite ripping is very simple to do without an emulator, whos to say that beats of rage used an illegal method to get the sprites. The whole point of this website is for homebrew, development, and emulation. What is done with it really isnt any of our concern, but generaly it was most likely not the intention of the developer for the emulator to be used for illeagal proceadures. Anyway, what the mods of the site say goes, and they say no warez. Lets hope that the Chankast team feels the same way so this site will continue to give them support.
quzar, DC stuff is dead, and sega realy aren't makin that much money from it anymore.
1timeuser, the sprites are illegal regardless of whether they used an emu to get them, unless they are given express permission by say sega, or playmore, that was the point I was makin.
DC stuff isnt dead, people are still developing for it. If you felt it was dead, why do you come to this site?Quote:
quzar, DC stuff is dead, and sega realy aren't makin that much money from it anymore.
1timeuser, the sprites are illegal regardless of whether they used an emu to get them, unless they are given express permission by say sega, or playmore, that was the point I was makin.
That was not your point either, you clearly stated that they used emulators to rip the sprites. The whole conversation is based around emulators, not the legitament sprite ripping of games.
For mame its turned into less of a question of whats legit and whats not, and more into a question of ethics.
I dont think their is any problem with displaying copyrighted graphics as long as you dont claim to be the origonal creator of them. If that were true then the internet would be shut down by now.
Just because the company is no longer making money on it, does not really mean its right to use warezed roms.
[quote author=Mental2k link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=75#75 date=07/26/04 at 17:03:24]1timeuser, the sprites are illegal regardless of whether they used an emu to get them, unless they are given express permission by say sega, or playmore, that was the point I was makin.[/quote]
thats not true. the sprites are covered under fair use. The product is not being sold and is completely free, therefor can use copyrighted stuff like that.
Would you like I post pics.. here's page 1 of a 4 page document called PCBlist.xls which is currentlyQuote:
quzar, it may have escaped your notice but 99% of what mame runs is also warez.
in need of serious additions..
You were saying something about mame and warez?
2x BagMan Stern Vert
1x King Boxer Wood Place Vert
2x Super Qix Tatio Vert
2x Main Event Horiz
3x Gyruss Konami Vert
1x Tiger Heli ? Vert Char Problem
2x Scramble Bootleg Vert
1x Popeye Nintendo Horiz Minor Sprite prob
1x Traverse USA ? Vert
1x Bank Panic Horiz
1x Exed Exes Vert
2x Frogger Sega/Gremlin Vert
1x Phoenix Vert
2x Tutankhamn Vert
1x Scramble Stern Vert
1x WonderBoy Monster Sega Horiz
1x Space Pilot Vert
1x Terra Cresta Vert
1x Juno First Vert
1x Championship Golf Horiz
1x Espial Orca Horiz
1x Storming Party Horiz Bad Audio Amp
1x Q-Bert Vert
1x Centipede Vert
3x Galaxian Midway Vert
1x Zaxxon Sega Vert
2x Altered Beast Sega Horiz
1x Shinobi Sega Horiz No Audio
1x Golden Axe Sega Horiz
1x KungFU Master Irem Horiz
1x Bomb Jack Horiz
1x Scrambled Eggs Vert
2x Time Pilot Vert
2x Pengo Sega Vert
1x Mortal Kombat Midway Horiz
4x Moon Patrol Horiz
1x Moon Ranger Horiz
1x Ghost ‘n Goblins Horiz
1x Tetris Bootleg Horiz
5x Tron Bally Vert
1x Journey Bally Vert
1x TMNT Horiz
1x Quiz n Dragons Horiz
3x Pole Position Atari Horiz
1x Top Racer Konami Horiz
5x Gorf Midway Vert
1x Wizard of Wor Midway Vert
1x Donkey Kong Jr Nintendo Vert
he wont have any clue as to what that is. to enlighten you, that is a list of the arcade boards that kamijin owns.
btw that is an awsome looking collection.