The Spirituality Thread

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April 16th, 2007, 02:14
tactful mcbee

Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas, Greek δόγμα, plural δόγματα) is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion
Infallibility, from Latin origin (in, not + fallere, to deceive), is a term with a variety of meanings related to knowing truth with certainty.

wow glad you cleared that up
April 16th, 2007, 02:31
Kaiser

Quote:

Originally Posted by tactful mcbee

Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas, Greek δόγμα, plural δόγματα) is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion
Infallibility, from Latin origin (in, not + fallere, to deceive), is a term with a variety of meanings related to knowing truth with certainty.

wow glad you cleared that up

I should have said Catholic Dogma. Catholic Dogma is simply a belief that is so certain that it cannot be changed. Catholic Doctrine however is a belief/policy that can be changed.

ex:

The Catholic church does not support gay marriage right now. This is simply doctrine and the possibility of change is still there.

Trinitarianism is Catholic dogma however. Their is no possibility that this belief will change in the church.

Personally I completely agree with the Catholic Church's Dogmatic teachings but I disagree with certain doctrines. This is perfectly acceptable.
April 16th, 2007, 02:40
ICE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

Perhaps I'm approaching this wrong.

Indeed saying I'm wrong does not make it so either. Nether does pointing to a website. We'll move away from that to though.

your the first person who ive ever met thats denied any of this. i went to school with tons of catholics and thats what they all believed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

No, again your completely misunderstanding (or blindly ignoring) what I said. I said don't take it literally. Catholics believe your interpretation is wrong. Deal with it. You have no way of proving yourself right and neither do we. Accept the difference.

FINALLY. they're different accept it. christians believe your's is wrong. get over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

The Pope will only claim infallability on dogma not doctrine. Get your facts straight. Infallability doesn't mean "the pope is always right" it means that certain statements by the pope with support of dogmatic teachings are the true teachings of Christ (at least according to Catholic beliefs).

Again you don't have to accept this. Just deal with it. It doesn't make us heathens.

that entire statement is wrong by definition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

Of course they do, all churches claim they're different from others. Otherwise we'd all be in the same exact church. Despite our differences though we are still Christian and accept the core beliefs of chrisitanity. See the Nicene Creed. However I'm sure the Vatican would try to distance itself from certain evangelical churches. The pope would, and I would, obviously see that as heresy.

catholics dont accept our core beliefs. thats the point of this. your personal church might but the CCC doesnt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

We should be able to live with those differences.

i can live with differences. i cant live with false cailms.

EDIT: so doctrine is just the little things that are changeable? first off with correct interpretaion of the bible you dont have to change anything. if your church is continually changing its teaching that should tell you something..

the vatican recently decided that mary is now co-redeemer and equal with jesus. so the status of jesus and mary is a little thing that can be changed?
April 16th, 2007, 02:49
Kaiser

Quote:

catholics dont accept our core beliefs. thats the point of this. your personal church might but the CCC doesnt.

Who is "our" when you say this? The Nicene Creed is one of the few things christians can agree with.

Quote:

i can live with differences. i cant live with false cailms.

Who are you to define what is false?

What/who the hell do you consider Christian?

Would you consider Orthodox, Oriental, Coptic or protestant followers as Christian? Who among these groups are actually Christian under your defination?
April 16th, 2007, 02:53
tactful mcbee

Quote:

Originally Posted by theICE_MAN

EDIT: so doctrine is just the little things that are changeable? first off with correct interpretaion of the bible you dont have to change anything. if your church is continually changing its teaching that should tell you something..

the vatican recently decided that mary is now co-redeemer and equal with jesus. so the status of jesus and mary is a little thing that can be changed?

by the way, you said Trinitarian theology is dogma, saying mary is co-equel is what we like to call a contridiction.
April 16th, 2007, 02:57
ICE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser

I've realised that arguing with you is pointless. You simply don't consider catholics as christian. There's no use arguing to someone so narrow minded.

Fixed.

i find it hard to believe that you dont see the overwhelming evidence around you. the fact you can brush all of that off and turn a closed ear to it is incredible.

as for me being close minded that was an uncalled for comment. you dont know me or my actions. close minded would be accepting my christian church as right and everything else is wrong. instead i have studied religion for years to find the truth.

after studying them all i found what was right and what was wrong.

the only closed minded person here is you. i was an atheist for until i was 15 or so parading around like i was a christian so i didnt get yelled at by my parents and yet im close minded.

EDIT: i dont determine what false. the bible does. who are christians? people who accept jesus by faith.

EDIT2x: kaiser i dont wanna hear these sarcastic questions. i answered you already. the BIBLE says to accept jesus by faith and you will be saved.
April 16th, 2007, 03:13
Kaiser

Quote:

Originally Posted by theICE_MAN

i find it hard to believe that you dont see the overwhelming evidence around you. the fact you can brush all of that off and turn a closed ear to it is incredible.

Its fine to not believe the same as me. All you've been doing is disagreeing with my beliefs. You haven't proved them wrong.

Quote:

the only closed minded person here is you. i was an atheist for until i was 15 or so parading around like i was a christian so i didnt get yelled at by my parents and yet im close minded.

I'm tolerant to many different religous beliefs ( I am Canadian after all). I'm open minded in the sense that I'm willing to tolerate all religions. I am open minded in the sense that I don't insult others faith. I am open minded in that I don't try to push my beliefs on others that might have a different outlook.

Quote:

EDIT: i dont determine what false. the bible does. who are christians? people who accept jesus by faith.

EDIT2x: kaiser i dont wanna hear these sarcastic questions. i answered you already. the BIBLE says to accept jesus by faith and you will be saved.

Catholics accept Jesus and interpretting the bible differently doesn't automatically mean your right.
April 16th, 2007, 03:20
ICE

excerpts from the catechism--

1. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
2. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
3. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
4. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both eternal and temporal.
5. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot be repeated.
6. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.
7. Baptism can be validly administered by anyone.
8. Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised.
9. The Baptism of young children is valid and licit.

the bold goes against the bible.
April 16th, 2007, 03:21
Kaiser

Quote:

Originally Posted by theICE_MAN

excerpts from the catechism--

1. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
2. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
3. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
4. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both eternal and temporal.
5. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot be repeated.
6. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.
7. Baptism can be validly administered by anyone.
8. Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised.
9. The Baptism of young children is valid and licit.

the bold goes against the bible.

It only go's against the bible under your interpretation. Accept that others may believe differently. I'm never asked you to accept the Catholic church or any other church for that matter. I'm just asking you to open your mind in the sense that others may have different beliefs.

Thats probably my argument at its purest.
April 16th, 2007, 03:23
ICE

not my interpretation. CHRISTIAN interpretation. catholics arent christians because of that.
EDIT: christian dogma on salvation-

1. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV).
2. "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4).
1. This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Gal. 3-5).
2. you cannot add to the work of God. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (NIV)
3. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
1. "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
2. "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law" (Gal. 3:21).

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