@ jman420:
where are ethics from?
and why are you still alive?
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@ jman420:
where are ethics from?
and why are you still alive?
jesus plays the wii.
on friday i will be :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n 1time
But i'll try to answer that, if it even has an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman420
in short this, is the million dollar question isnt it.
I belive its possible, That the whole idea of what happens to someone when they pass on is completely missunderstood, there may in fact be an infinite number of things that happens to different people once they pass on this mortal coil. and the whole idea of being tested, or evaulated or judged, is for those that follow a certain path. Thats not to say there isnt other options out there for other people. thats only to say, if one wants to go to the general idea of what christain heaven is, it might benifet them to concider christianity.
It sais the options for the non christians who choose not to accept this, is hell. but ive heard many christians explain hell as simply a an eternity simply outside heaven and devoid of God.
Honestly. Religion is confusing. it seems to limit free thinking, and free will for that matter. giveing believers few options. If all of this sounds negitive. its not ment to..
In truth, I believe the reasons one must be evaluated and judged is simply because the religion christianity has standerds that will not be broken, christianity will not abide by the things they concider sins, For instance J man, If you go to live somewhere forever.. its a hard concept i know, But im sure even you would have rules about the kind of people you would want excluded from this.
Just a thought.
If this isnt acceptible. Give me some time to wake up, get some cofee and get my brain switched on, I think it's still in sleep mode this morning..
In short, Christianity, is for christians, Why people that have no interest in christianity
think its unfair that they cant go to christian heaven. seems like a pointless topic to me really, I mean that whole process pretty much explains itself.
Some enlightening thoughts. For those that believe. It sais in the bible that the wisdom of man. is but foolishness to God.
Jman, Thats why, no one should ever depend on someone else for there information about God, No simple mortal man, is qualified to judge or guide ( your soul) Thats the most precious thing anyone has. And no other person has the wisdom or knowlage to guide you, especally not me.
Some of the questions you ask, are questions that no man can answer, and the only way to find those answers is to seek them out for yourself,
However, Any man that can deny the existance of God without giving Chritianity a try, seems to be limiting there own options,
It sais in the bible that christianity is the only way.. and for certain people, I would say it is the only way,. However, the jewish people, had there promise of salvation long before the gentiles, And I still believe there promise is very valid.
God being perfect, would not make a promise and then break it, All jewish laws and promise are still very much in the proper. To that, I can assure you..
Meaning of life is to reproduce, seriously without that nothing would exist. (oh oh heres where all the religion and human morals mumbo jumbo comes in)
to simply take the opposite option however, is no less constraining, and perhaps more so.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowprophet
It would seem no matter what options we take,Quote:
Originally Posted by accordian boy
that there are no options that do not in some way limit us. even those options which people would consider as devoid of all religious meaning, to choose them still limits us im some ways.
ultimately there is no such thing as true freedom.
Reminds me of a song I once heard, Don't remember the band.
Even if you choose not to decide, you have still made a choice.
Makes perfect since to me really.
However, that is exactly the problem non believers have with religion to begin with.
an idea or concept that even lays claim to them, even though they choose to be separate from it. I can even as a believer, almost understand there point of view...
to understand it from an atheists stand point, that some yahoo comes up to them and says, weather you believe or not, it still effects you.
yeah, I can understand there anger and confusion.
As for me, I have made peace with the fact, at least im my eyes. that I did not create myself.
and even though my parents had a lot to do with that. vicariously who created the original man.
Why are we so different from the animals?
why are we vastly more intelligent?
honesty, im an open minded person. But even from an non believers stand point.
The idea of evolution has its flaws.
Man is just to complicated to have sprang fourth from a puddle of ooze that got struck by lightning.
for that matter. of you take the time even as an atheist. to study the genome ( At all) you will see the vast differences between plants animals and humans. and how the many different forms of life on this planet are so dramatically different.
I Don't even understand how the theory of evolution hasn't been disproven,
Yes evolution happens. But never ever does it change from one gnu to another.
An evolved fish will still be a fish. no matter how evolved it becomes.
So if the theory of evolution is correct. then when that lightning hit that puddle of ooze, not only did it have to create life, but billions of different genus, and the corresponding opposite sex for each genus..
Hmm given the likely hood of it happening at all to begin with, what are the astronomical odds of it happening while providing all the different genus and sexes at that same time.
to me the only answer is some sort of intervention, be it devine, or just some aliens that decided to dump there crapper on our little hell hole of a planet.
Regardless of this, life exist's. weather we where created by an existing life force or not, a truly deep mind will ponder the origins of life in general. be it from this planet or another.
"The whole history of science has been the gradual realisation that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired."
Stephen Hawking
If you guys are interested in Christianity in a purely intelectual way, CS Lewis is probably the best author I've ever read on it. Mere Christianity and The problem of Pain both dissected a lot of what I considered to be contradictions in both Atheism and Christianity. The problem of Pain particularly explains the 'why does god allow suffering in the world, if he's all powerful and loves us, then surely we wouldn't suffer" and Mere Christianity just covers everything, he writes in a very understandable methodical way too.
please.. just respect the christian faith!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n 1time
that is blasfemi your ... ARGH!
stop it please!
@Acordian boy
AND YOU ALSO!
cs lewis is a great author except he basically makes jesus into a LION!!! blasphemy??
shadowprophet you are now my favorite member. the thing about these peoples questions only being able to be answered by them finding it out for them selves is the best thing you could have said. its incredibly true beyond what people my realize....
oh and the why does god allow suffering thing..... well i'll give it a go. without suffering we would have no knowledge of evil. jesus said "my people die for lack of knowledge." if everything was perfect we would all die and go to heaven in ignorance. something, i personally, do not like the idea of. also we are tested because god is infinitely holy and just as light and dark cannot mingle neither can god mingle with mankind. at least not until we're purified. he may be gad but he literally CAN NOT be with us physically. we are too evil. god is perfect we are not.
oh and shadowprophet evolution DOES NOT HAPPEN AT ALL! what does happen is adaptation. evolution means one species to another original species. adaptation is just the species physically adjusting to its surrounding. people even do that....
SP has been my favourite member for a long damn time. My wife thinks he's great too. He's such a great person to have a discussion with and he seems to be willing to look at both sides of the coin, unlike a lot of "this is my way and I'm sticking to it" attitudes out there.
Keep the thoughts flowing out of your head SP, because it gives us all something to think about.
he doesn't make Jesus unto a lion.
that's not the same??
yep thats what i try to do.. i mean be non-dogmatic and such. i will calmly and nicely disagree with other's but i wont force what i think down there throat... no matter how right i am.....
stump i have no clue what you mean but in the cs lewis books jesus is represented by a lion. a verse LITERALLY says DO NOT MAKE AN IMAGE OF YOU LORD JESUS CHRIST!!! or anything in heaven.... so what would you call what lewis did????
yeah, I'm accualy not asking for help here, I already know much more about religion then most people do.. but, I am simply adding to the arguement by posing my own questions, that at the same time put across the arguement for my side.. ie. dont you suppose that its possible that God doesent exist? because the main thing that he would do would be create humanity, throw us on this rock to test us, and hide from all of us...Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowprophet
but of course thats not how I asked it..
but the questiions that I ask, that no man can answer, is exactly the point... these are the things that I must know in order to be at peace with a God existing... without these questions answered, there is no God, there is not all powerful being that loves me, because of this issue of answering these important questions...
@Accordian boy
I think on a variety of ethics theories, all depends on the subject... but when your ethics theory is What Would Jesus Do?, your going to have some problems...
most of the time my theory of ethics consists of choosing the thing that is right, on a system of if it hurts noone, and brings yourself pleasure.. it is ethical.. if it hurts anyone, it is now unethical...
or sometimes, I will consider the pro's and con's so to speak...
and why am I still alive??? because I havent died yet....
i dont think you understood...Quote:
Originally Posted by jman420
where do ethics come from...originally?
and
what is your reason for existing?
like i said, i dont constrain my beliefs by cornering myself intentionaly, but i understand that i can never be pure and free of influence...so i no longer aspire to be.
my point is that: being controlled is not the problem, because it is impossible not to be. but believing you are unrestrained; is.
such a way of life is truly very green!
——————————
by the way did you get my P.M. Jman?
no, I fully understand, I think that you need to either take a philosophy class, or deal with not understanding ethics, or the so-called reason for existing..Quote:
Originally Posted by accordian boy
one of my favorite theories of ethics is the utilitarianism theory, by Jeremy Bentham. It consists of the rules of the priciple of utility. which says: act so that the concequnces maximize pleasure, and minimize pain for all affected. which basicly means you can do anything, aslong as the pleasure outweighs the pain's for all affected.... this is the theory I mentioned earlier...
but I guess in general, the philosophy of ethics is very broad, there is quite a few different theories... but still, they all answer to the best plan for humanity. all the theories come to an end where there is balance...
when you go into the divine command theory, you loose whats best for humanity, and tip the balance of the scales, to improve the life of christians only... you think that you will go to hell if you dont put money in the collection tray, because someone added that into the bible 500 years ago... so your scared, and of course give your money to the church.. then they get free money for lying to the crowd of people there for church, and then at the end of the day, pocket your hard earned cash...
this gives christiananity and all other religions, an upper hand when you consider divine command as your theory of ethics... you loose all ability to make your own choices.... and give up your ideas, to live for a figment, so that one day, you can die and go to heaven... it just doesent make any more sence then the priciple of utility...
now, onto reason for existing...
this is a question that I have pondered for many years.. and not yet found an answer for.. but at the same time, I think that is the reason that God has existed for 3000 years in the minds of humans... we are a very lost, confused group of animals, and we require things that will clarify these questions that there are no answers for.. that is why religion, and God were created... so we had the answer, for the question: why do we exist?
at the same time, religion can also answer many other questions that there may not be genuine answers for... such as, freak accedents, usualy blamed on God... people being sick, and getting better quickly, usualy blamed on God... the intire universe being so vast, usualy blamed on God... Earth circling Sol, was blamed on God... Luna circling Earth, was blamed on God... Sol rising in the east, and setting in the west, making the sky blue, and black depending, blamed on God at the time...
religion was created so long ago, to lie to us about the reality of the universre, and the way it works....
and thats just another thing that I would like to point out.. this was another thing I nonticed about religion...
God, is always favored over science... I have never seen any religious person say that science made more sence then their God's so-called creation... as I exampled above, Earth going around Sol once a year was blamed on God for a long ass time... untill it was discovered that it in fact was because of gravity, and of course, when they discovered that Sol was not going across the planar Earth..
but at the time, science was tossed aside, to make room for God to be master... and not just a bystander to this happening... it was not for a long time that anyone recognised the scientific applications of the universe... before they could honestly proove somthing, God was the answer for all phenomenon...
I look at our galaxy, and the millions of other galaxies in our universe.. and dont understand why I am the only one looking out, but I still find comfort knowing that there is other planets like ours, probobly with animals on them... but I still find it confusing that this is the planet with me on it, and how I exist only to do this... so I will always be confused about why I exist, but the answer to that question will never be answered (unless I take the lazy way, and go with God)
but there have been other theories, that I have rejected... ie. The Big Bang theory, it realy makes no sence how all this mass, and matter was created from nothing, doesent realy work out... granted, its better then creationism, its still flawed, there needs to be a better explaination...
another would be the theory of evolution, another very flawed theory, that never realy made sence... granted, all organisms can evolve, it doesent seem to make sence that humans evolved from mico-organisms, after the dinosaurs were distroyed...
maybe monkeys came to this planet from another, and started existing, and evolving from there, who knows...
but I guess in a generalization, I want to live in the now, in the 21st century, on the rock I call Earth, going around a ball of flaming gas called Sol, only accompanied by my fellow humans... without caring about this maniacal judging figment we all call God.. without worring about when I die, where will I go... I live in the now, and the now only...
__________________
ya, I got your PM, dont wana change my sig, I like it being freakishly long lol...
im athiest and i have a strong mind and moral :) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowprophet
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman420
such irony is indiginous to the green men who aspire to purple!
stop your half reading and open you eyes! "What" and "Why" are very different things.
surely you cannot be so blind to your directly mirrored fundamentalism...
also the use of "your " is most unwelcome to an [mostly] unsmudged figure!
you must not act so like a sponge if you are to grow strong!
a plant must be conservative and never greedy if it is to maintain structure!
I have to say. This thread has turned into a panicle of tolerance and understanding,
When I started this thread I never suspected it would last. Most usually a controversial topic such as religion ends in strife and and conflict.
Each and every one of you have practiced tolerance and reserve in your calm judgments,
it makes me proud to be a member of a place with such great people,
Just wanted to take the time to thank everyone for allowing me to learn something new. and even restoring some faith that I had lost in group discussions about serious topics.
Thank you everyone:thumbup:
wow, thats so negitive lol... thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by accordian boy
lol but seriously, my eye's are open, your eye's may be too, but the wool over them is imepeading your sight...
unsmudged face?! that doesent even make sence..
I will give ya props for the great metephor, nice...
an hey shadowprophet, I'm glad you dont think I'ma one sided fool lol,
kick ass thread, hands down!:thumbup:
your vision impaired? i wrote figure not face!!!
I see that, still doesent make any sence lol....
you are stained with ink
anyways, I would like to continue this conversation, without the assinine comments from accordian boy, that dont add anything lol....
so I brought this page back up to where people can see it lol
i think you brought it back up to use the word 'asinine' :PQuote:
Originally Posted by jman420
I just wanted to drop by the thread to let jayman know, yeah. id like to continue this conversation too:cool:
Just be patient with me jay, Ive been kinda sick today.
At first I thought it may be just an upset stomach,
its gotten quite a bit worse as the day went by.
Im actuelly concidering going to the hospital.
Anyway, yes please, leave a good opener for me, and ill be back later to help continue this conversation.
peace out Sp :cool:
dont know what to say man, you go ahead an strike up a subject..
This is the latest of my current topics, this topic has become stale. howeverQuote:
Originally Posted by jman420
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45996
should interest you :cool:
I'd happily start a subject...Quote:
Originally Posted by jman420
...if I was religious, but im not! lmao
we're not talking about religion in a positive manner, we were talking about the loss of ethics in athiests and innate ethics.. mostly..
I am not religious either, and I'm sure people can see that.. but, that doesent mean that someone couldnt bring up an arguement that I could agree with.. like shadowprophet's link above! lol....
circles are tiring... not religious... prove it.!!!
im a non-believer!Quote:
Originally Posted by accordian boy
I don't follow anyone elses so called words of wisdom, and last person who to preach to me got told to F_CK OFF
I also know that there is'nt religion, but rules and laws that are forced onto others by crappy storys... thou shalt NOT do this, thou shalt take a shit on the holy bible
im also a bible burner, cause the bible is full of shit anyway
and last and not least... the only book that has ever made any sense to me was written by Anton Szandor LaVey - the Satanic Bible, thou I don't go by it or anything with the word Bible in it
Vampirisim is cool thou!
dude, tho or though.. thou means you... i.e. "Thou shalt stick a plastic banana up ye bottom...."
anyway!
ya, well, you may think that way, and that is one way to argue, but at the same time, you have to realize that religion and the bible are ways of controlling humanity.. as I have said before, its an issue of ethics.. and you seem to have none.. where-as religious people generaly act a certin way, in order to maintain their social standing. but, its still the 'divine command" theory of ethics.. I prefer the other ethics theories.. which basicly state that you must only do things that harm nobody but yourself.. or the theory that states that you should do all you can to maximise pleasure, and minimize pain to all people involved in somthing...
I think that although religion may keep us under controll, I would never believe in somthing only because I felt as though I needed to in order to live past my normal life time...
I dont understand why I am here, but neither does anyone else.. and the God arguement for existance, doesent make any more sence then the theory that I am merely a idea in everyone elses mind... and that the reason that we as humans exist is because we are known to exist..
anyways, I will await another post for to argue with :p
are you talking to me???
if so, [and even if your not...] it would seem you are making hasty decisions on your subject
surely you can see that at the root of any belief [spiritual, deities , or otherwise] they are the same. your advocation of your own, is proof enough of such innerneed....
either way, when faced with a selection, who is to suppose the doors are one way only...? surely an understanding of all, is greater than being locked to one path
nope dont think I was... but the point still remains valid..
Not to sound like a dick or anything, but I believe holidays are now have little more meaning than a marketing scheme, this is mainly prevelant in the Christian holiday of Christmas.
as does mineQuote:
Originally Posted by jman420
so, now christmas is what.. a scheme to lure people to buy stuff? i do not think so.....
well now it is...a whole third of all UK purchases take place in the last 8 weeks of the year...either way, without christmas the world economy would collapse!
i wonder why.......:pQuote:
Originally Posted by accordian boy