Project DS Announced

News from Scherzo:[br][br] I feel it's kinda retarded on my part to keep this project a mystery. Retarded, selfish... whatever... [br][br]nakamichi and jtnewman pretty much nailed the intent of the project. I intend to make development of homebrew easier for people without much experience in programming. People who use this will also avoid having to setup a unix-ish environment and cross compiler. [br][br]DS stands for DreamScript. I have ported the KJS JavaScript engine found in KDE's web browser, Knoquerer, with promising results. So far, I have implemented objects for video, images, controllers, and mice and I've done a some simple tests. [br][br]I've always liked JavaScript. It has a nice syntax similar to C/C++, useful core objects, and is very flexible. The way I see it, it's a perfect candidate for a scripting language on DC. A good number of you have probably done web development which involved writing some JavaScript. So it's syntax and behavior should be well known. [br][br]Using a scripting language provides that extra layer that will allow me to write a PC based application that duplicates what would happen on the DC. So instead of constantly uploading your new script to the DC, you can test right on your PC until you are ready. And KJS easily makes true step-by-step debugging possible. So I will defintely write a cross platform IDE for DreamScript. Maybe in Java? [br][br]So far I only have 2D homebrew in mind. I'm not sure if the extra overhead of the script engine will allow for complex 3D games. I still have to find out the limits of scripting 2D. [br][br]If I keep the API generic enough, it could conceivably be ported to other systems in the future. [br][br]It's far from complete. I need some functionality for VMU at least. I'm thinking about re-writing the menus and other functionality of NesterDC SE using DreamScript. Maybe I won't because I do want to finish that soon. [br][br]That covers it for now. I welcome any input. [br][br]another great bit of news :)

java for dreamcast :)

what a great news day

its not java its javascript. anyone who has done both knows there is a HUGE difference. Basically Java allows you to create anything, just like C or C++. Javascript however allows you to basically make a the scripting engine do what you want it to.

Jeese! I say the DS and i thought someone had already started work on a Nintendo DS emulator. That sounds dumb, but remember GBAemu? :P

Java and Java script have huge differances, but it is still very cool news!

shows what i know eh :P

u would use java script for web pages. i did some for my course, but i don't know if there is much demand for slide shows, rollover buttons, and crap like that, (thats all i know)

;D

I love this guy everything he does is always of such high quality.

[quote author=Hola link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=0#6 date=07/26/04 at 21:49:21]I love this guy everything he does is always of such high quality.[/quote]

True dat.

Would it be possible to do it with flash instead, like port across flash player.

Then we could build games in flash. And have one flash file for each level in a game ( for instance). Then write a program in windows that can create code to join all the animations, and tell the dc which one to load where. Then we could have massive games in flash. Which is a far better platform to build games, (I say this because I can sorta use actionscript, but v. little javascript) only an idea, it it makes sense to anyone!

I'm not quite sure what we would be able to do with Javascript either, but I do know that scherzo said he might move on to PHP next. Here is what he had to say when Ender asked him about PHP:

Quote:

---

I won't argue that PHP is the best there is right now in fast and affordable server side scripting. I suppose I could have looked into PHP but I just dig JavaScript. One reason, although superficial, is that I don't like writing dollar signs before my variables. But you certainly have me thinking though. From what I understand, the PHP interpreter is quite fast. I might go peaking around the PHP source in the next few days. I wonder how easily I can get just the interpreter without the core library functions.

---

Although, I'm not quite sure what we'd do with PHP either (especially without any real way to use SQL databases on the DC). It is interesting, though, that someone is willing to try to port these things to the DC.

flash can not be ported because there is no source code.

i like this idea, if all u have to know is simple javescript to get some sort of out put i will have a go at it....

here is a great wee site with lots of javascript stuff http://javaboutique.internet.com/
hall of fame http://javaboutique.internet.com/stats/halloffame.html

I've been working on more-or-less the same thing, but using BASIC instead of JavaScript. Once finished, it looks like the two projects will be pretty evenly matched in terms of capability and (relative) ease of use, so the only major difference is the programming language it's tied to. There are a lot of people who know one of the two languages, and neither are particularly difficult to learn.

I think KJS (the JavaScript engine in DS) is a bit faster than wxBasic (the BASIC interpreter I'm using), but since the Dreamcast's 3D hardware is doing most of the work, I don't think that'll matter too much.

I was thinking the same thing about flash... I wish that could come to dreamcast as so much great media exists for flash.

Basic running slower than java script? That sounds just a little bit werid.

[quote author=BlackAura link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=0#11 date=07/28/04 at 01:37:38]I've been working on more-or-less the same thing, but using BASIC instead of JavaScript. Once finished, it looks like the two projects will be pretty evenly matched in terms of capability and (relative) ease of use, so the only major difference is the programming language it's tied to. There are a lot of people who know one of the two languages, and neither are particularly difficult to learn.

I think KJS (the JavaScript engine in DS) is a bit faster than wxBasic (the BASIC interpreter I'm using), but since the Dreamcast's 3D hardware is doing most of the work, I don't think that'll matter too much.[/quote]

Yeah - I was getting ready to mention that. I am very intrigued by this project. The thought of being able to run BASIC on the Dreamcast simply blows my mind.

I am no brainer with Java Script but if it has anything to do with upping the graphics a bit to homebrew,emulation and other such projects then way to go

I'm about to email macromedia, see if we cant get the source for flashy player, I think once they realise we don't want to use it for comercial purposes they might let us have the source.

[quote author=1timeuser link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=0#12 date=07/28/04 at 08:27:56]Basic running slower than java script? That sounds just a little bit werid.[/quote]

Well, the JavaScript engine Scherzo is using was designed to be portable, modular, small, and fast. The BASIC interpreter I'm using was not intended to be any of those things.

[quote author=Mental2k link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=15#15 date=07/28/04 at 15:32:43]I'm about to email macromedia, see if we cant get the source for flashy player, I think once they realise we don't want to use it for comercial purposes they might let us have the source.[/quote]

Feel free to try, but I don't think they'll cooperate. Typically, they're more than happy to allow other tools to create Flash files, but they're not too happy when someone tries to write a player.

They have provided me with an application form to apply for permission to access to the flash player SDK and will review my application.

Here's hopin like hell this works!

They turned down the application on account of it costing too much for the SDK. Â*Though if anyone is interested in persuing this further, here is the email that macromedia sent me,

Quote:

---

Dear Alexander Orr,

Thank you for your interest in the Flash Player SDK program. The minimum, upfront cost to license the Flash Player Software Development Kit is quite significant. Based on the annual revenue that you mentioned in your submission, we do not feel that our solution would fit into your budget.

If you want us to consider negotiating a License Agreement with you, please send email to ![email protected] with complete information including your company's URL, details regarding its annual revenue and an extended description of your intended use of the SDK.

In the meantime, we will keep your information on file. Should we develop a product in the future that might be of interest to you, we will contact you at that time. We appreciate your continued interest in Macromedia products.

Sincerely,
Elaine Connolly

---

Maybe if one of the more experienced members of the scene would like to negotiate a deal with them. It might just be possible, but out of my grasp I fear, I dont have the knowledge. Though someone please pursue this!

there are open source flash players around, why not port one of those...? I would absolutely love this... imagine having all of the strongbad episodes on one cd... watchable on a tv... fatastic. especially if you made a dream inducer image with an mp3 player and stick all of his songs on it too.... "Alllright for toooniiiight"

I dunno, i cant do SH-4 coding, hence me wanting flash, souLLy wat are these players? and can they cope with games?

http://www.openswf.org that has loads of info on the file format, i cant find any links to players right now, and theyve disappeared from my favourites over time... im sure other people know of them.

I found a current open source one, which is currently being built, and in C\C++ I think, this would be our perfect candidate, now we just need someone to port each version to the DC, any takers? http://gplflash.sourceforge.net/

DS is gonna be one of the best things to happen to the DC in a long time. I've already got some projects planned for now that I know some of the features its supporting.

Hola here is where your wrong we have many better things then Java Script i am not dissing it is a great project but not as good as Neo Geo Cd emu.

Eric

[quote author=Eric link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=15#24 date=07/30/04 at 22:37:04]Hola here is where your wrong we have many better things then Java Script i am not dissing it is a great project but not as good as Neo Geo Cd emu.

Eric[/quote]Thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard.
Neogeo CD has such a limited amount of games. Less than 100 and less than 20 worth play. I'm not trashing the emulator at all i'm trashing the system. Neogeo cart was a good system Neogeo CD wasnt hence why it died and the cart lived on. Java script isnt a emulator either is a programing langauge. This will mean more people can program things for DC. Which mean you get more things on DC. How is this not good? It's like comparing apples and oranges. They're just arent the same.

[quote author=Eric link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=15#24 date=07/30/04 at 22:37:04]Hola here is where your wrong we have many better things then Java Script i am not dissing it is a great project but not as good as Neo Geo Cd emu.

Eric[/quote]

Err... Personally, I think it's the other way around. An emulator is really nothing special, because you can't really do a lot with it. From a technical point of view, they are interesting only because they are fairly challenging to create. However, once written, they will never be able to run anything that hasn't already been done.

This, on the other hand, will allow people who don't know C/C++, and who aren't necessarily that good at programming, to create new games for the Dreamcast.

Okay that is pretty interesting i think you put it a little easy on me on the other hand that Hola guy is really starting to piss me off

For us less able coders, it is the best thing so far. I have to learn javascript now. Dammit.

i personaly cant wait for the Basic project of Blackauras to come out too :)

yeah it should leave us with quite a back catalogue of games that we can already play. And give me an excuse to actually lean a language, instead of pickin up the basics and then gettin distracted by my next project.

[quote author=BlackAura link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=15#26 date=07/30/04 at 23:41:01]

This, on the other hand, will allow people who don't know C/C++, and who aren't necessarily that good at programming, to create new games for the Dreamcast.[/quote]

Blitz, Hisoft basic.. and all the others were a great thing
that spawned many good games and applications.. plus
when writing dos dools, I still use basic to prototype
out bizarre functions, since it can be done the quickest
there.

I'm no coder but just as a matter of interest would a generic basic interpreter be able to interpret all forms of basic?

I was actually thinking about that the other day. Basic on Dreamcast?! That brings back some old memories.... from when i was 4 and i discovered how to make really annoying pulsating sounds on my atari computer. Ah, thoes were the days... Basic would be great for dreamcast! I could do my math homework with my DC!!!


As for java scrip being a great thing for the dc................................................ ....................................

yah its pretty cool, but some of you need to realize you cant do a whole lot with java script as its not a programming language its A SCRIPT!!!! Thats not to say you cant make some pretty cool side scrollers or stuff like that. But you arnt going to make some complexed game or anything. You could probably make some cool menus with it though! And cute little mini games for disks like pheonix.

Its a great project, dont get me wrong, but i think some of you people sound like you are looking for a new full fledged dc dev tool, and that just isnt going to happen. If you want an example of some java games (and some of them are very cool) check out
www.freearcade.com

[quote author=Mental2k link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=30#32 date=07/31/04 at 07:10:17]I'm no coder but just as a matter of interest would a generic basic interpreter be able to interpret all forms of basic?[/quote]

not really.. depends how the person creates it..
BlackAura's is based on Wx so the syntax is is much
more along the lines of Qbasic, the one I had started
was using line numbers. There's also a plenititude
of commands that don't appear across all basics like
Inkey$,plot, locate, graphic, etc.. Even same basics
that have the simmilar revisions.. like AmigaBasic, and
Qbasic, are not entirely compatible, since each had
specific commands geared to the hardware they were
on. like mouse controlls which was "standard" on amigas.
but very scarce at the time on PC's
The idea is that all basicish languages are simmilar,
so the learning curve isn't as bad like moving from
cobol to C++, more like C++ to Java..

[quote author=1timeuser link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=30#33 date=07/31/04 at 08:04:02]yah its pretty cool, but some of you need to realize you cant do a whole lot with java script as its not a programming language its A SCRIPT!!!![/quote]
Actually, JavaScript is a language. It was designed for scripting, but scripting languages can be suprisingly powerful, but they can't interact directly with the system, only with the host program. As with all scripting languages, it's capabilities are determined entirely by the program it's connected to. In most cases that's a web browser, so it can really only do web browser related stuff. In the case of DS, it's obviously not a web browser - it's a system designed for doing 2D games.

In fact, the capabilities DS has are almost the same (a few minor differences here and there) as the ones I'm working on for a BASIC interpreter. The only real difference is the language you use to write the games. They will both supply you with a lot of stuff you can use to write 2D games with, including (obviously) controller access, sound, music, 2D graphics (which should be well beyond SNES-era systems), and probably some other stuff too.

Besides, on modern systems BASIC is considered to be a scripting language as well.

[quote author=Mental2k link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=30#32 date=07/31/04 at 07:10:17]I'm no coder but just as a matter of interest would a generic basic interpreter be able to interpret all forms of basic?[/quote]
Short answer: No
Long answer: Most dialects of BASIC are very different. Even the basic syntax of the language can differ quite a lot. JavaScript, on the other hand, is pretty well defined.

[quote author=Wraggster link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=15#29 date=07/31/04 at 06:23:28]i personaly cant wait for the Basic project of Blackauras to come out too :)[/quote]

Actually, I've made some progress on that today. I finally had a chance to do some decent work on the graphics system. I've got it to the stage where I can set up the video system on both a PC (using OpenGL) and on a Dreamcast, load textures, and draw them to the screen correctly, which means doing a hell of a lot of work on the PC side, and virtually no work at all on the Dreamcast side. The problem is that the Dreamcast version is virtually useless without the PC version, becuase you can't really develop stuff on the Dreamcast directly.

Having to un-twiddle all the textures and then convert them to a format I can use, then depth sort everything before drawing it is bad enough, but I've also had to port fairly large chunks of KOS itself over so I can use them. It made the rest of the job suprisingly easy though. Much of my texture loading code was a simply copy-and-paste from KOS.

BlackAura will this be windows compatable? and is it based on any particular form of BASIC so i can start learnin some, for when the interpreter comes out?

[quote author=Mental2k link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=30#36 date=08/01/04 at 07:03:55]BlackAura will this be windows compatable? and is it based on any particular form of BASIC so i can start learnin some, for when the interpreter comes out?[/quote]

If you mean "Does it run on Windows?", the answer is "probably". There is a PC version, but I'm developing on Linux, not Windows. It should work on Windows, but I've not tried it.

It's based on wxBasic, and uses the same syntax. wxBasic has a lot of stuff that I removed, almost all related to the GUI stuff that wxBasic has, but the core of the language is the same.

[quote author=BlackAura link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=30#37 date=08/01/04 at 08:08:41]

If you mean "Does it run on Windows?", the answer is "probably". There is a PC version, but I'm developing on Linux, not Windows. It should work on Windows, but I've not tried it.

It's based on wxBasic, and uses the same syntax. wxBasic has a lot of stuff that I removed, almost all related to the GUI stuff that wxBasic has, but the core of the language is the same.[/quote]

Now that would be the coolest part about the new DS and BASIC interpreter. We could create progs or games using BASIC or JS, and probably be able to test them on our PC's before we ever burned them on a disc for the DC.
Of course, for the BASIC interpreter (and possibly for DS), we would need to use the same interpreter on our PC's as we are using on the DC, but it would still be cool.

[quote author=curt_grymala link=board=Dev;num=1090864320;start=30#38 date=08/01/04 at 09:45:12]Of course, for the BASIC interpreter (and possibly for DS), we would need to use the same interpreter on our PC's as we are using on the DC, but it would still be cool.[/quote]

As long as you use the same version (if we added something, and you used it on the PC version, then tried it on an older version on the DC, it wouldn't work), it should be fine.

Hmm... I wonder if DS will work on Linux too, or will I have to steal someone else's machine to have a go at it?