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http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22439742-2,00.html
News.com.au (a News limted [News corp aka fox]) is using the term 'police state'.
You can even hear kerry saying 'thats alright, I'll answer the question' as the guy is dragged away.
Something is wrong.
Who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by bah
But that's goodbye to Freedom of Speech, as the guy only asked questions.
That would be indicative of a police state only IF it were a state policy. From the pictures I've seen it looks more like the "police" involved were university security guards. On top of that, it doesn't really point to "freedom of speech" issues either as the participants of such events are usually made fully aware of the "acceptable" range of topics. Which, sure, sounds like censorship, but there are _A LOT_ of topics that are sure to trigger heated, passionate debates and flat-out physical fights. Establishing base-rules for any such forum, whether you believe it or not, _is_ done with the public's general safety in mind. It's hand-in-hand with the concept of having rules at schools, which is publicly acceptable even among other first-world nations.
I don't think they literally mean a police state, rather the actions taken resemble the norm in one.
If Kerry was willing to answer, why should be be dragged away, held down by like 6 cops/guards then tazered. All of them on 1 scrawny kid.
What is the point of questioning our leaders if its confined to 'how fantastically successful do you think your term has been, extremely or just very?'.
America, now more than ever, needs passionate debates IMO.
was there ever anything right with america??
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295706,00.html
There are plenty of things wrong with america... and fox news isnt helping. Some of this may be reality, but more often then not fox... well.... makes shit up, alters reality, and does whatever they feel is necessary to create sensational bullshit to persuade people to support their idea of an ideal America (republican christians destroying free speech and starting wars for seemingly no reason). Dont believe everything you hear. Not from CNN, not from NBC and CERTAINLY not from fox news.
I dont like kerry that much, but there is most certainly more to the story than "he didnt like the guy so he had him shut his mouth." The dems are pussies with great ideas but an odd inability to get anything done... what was mentioned above would be a right wing tactic.
What it boils down to is that this individual was being obviously disruptive and disorderly. Just look at what you wrote: "held down by like 6 cops/guards then tazered. All of them on 1 scrawny kid". If the person was asking a serious question looking for a serious answer and conducting himself in a respectable manner, I'm sure it would've never resulted in such "police action".
My only point is that this situation happens in every free country on a semi-regular basis. America is an obvious target for criticism being the dominant world power. Just because the US took military action in Iraq, news organizations are using that as justification for accusing the US of becoming facist and blowing situations like this out of proportion. In reality, America on whole strongly hates taking international military action (America is, by nature, insular) and you can only muster the kind of public support that the military action in Iraq garnered after the US feels like "it's hand has been pushed". This is why you need to take a closer look at "criticisms" such as these, because even if the US had taken no military action in Iraq, such overly sensational, unrealistically critical articles would still be published and circulated. There's always something to criticize, and there's always some measure of legitimacy to criticisms. That doesn't mean that you should take all of them seriously, you just need to take them with a grain of salt. 1time hit the nail on the head by pointing out that this article says more about Fox News then it does about America.
There are some serious issues currently facing the US, but all first world countries face the same issues. It's irresponsible to entirely shift the burden of dealing with those issues on America's shoulders.
The guy was an idiot. He should have shouted but not resisted. Freedom of speech does not apply because it is not a public forum, that's like asking why you can't start screaming "f*ck!!!" at the top of your lungs in a McDonalds and not be escorted out.
This is going to go nowhere because any debate that could be made for the kid being removed without cause is going to be rebuffed by the fact that he acted like an ass and resisted arrest (then cried from the tazering).
He had multiple people on him only once he protested being removed for asking a question someone didn't like, Kerry was even answering as they started dragging him away.
The issue is not just the overreaction by security (I wouldn't be happy about being removed for asking a question, would probably cry from a tazering too), but why he was being removed and the disturbing culture of only asking nice questions.
He asked questions regarding elections and the incredibly close links that many politicians from both sides of politics (including bush and kerry) seem to have from an early age.
No matter what you feel about either side of politics, I don't see how these question can be dismissed as not serious or respectable.
These are internal issues, not related to the mess that is iraq.
When we're living in a time with a president who is so obviously having his strings pulled by some group of people, who acts against the popular will of the country and dismisses all opposition as being 'against the country', there is really a need for all sorts of questions to be asked and answered.
Even if all you get out of a politician is spin, a nugget of truth may just slip out and onto the record that may at some later point contradict their future spin. Perhaps at that point someone may put 1 and 1 together and be able to dig deeper into an issue.
If no one is asking tough questions then how many more liberties are people there going to loose in the name of 'patriotism'.
Thats what I took from it, I'm not saying its the most important story in the world, just seeing what people think. Personally I feel its more than someone shouting **** repeatedly in mcdonalds.
EDIT: The main reason I pointed out the article was on news.com.au which is news ltd, which is news corp, who also own fox, is because of the angle they took on the story and how it seemed out of place considering their regular (vehemently conservative) position. Here is a US fox news site's report, doesn't anyone find it odd that the same company takes 2 totally different stances considering they are supposed to be reporting the facts on the same event (which goes to what Cap'n 1time was saying).
Considering kerry is saying 'thats alright, let me answer his question' and also refers to it as a 'very important question' it seems fair enough to let the guy hear the answer. I'd like to know who the guy behind the officers is, the one in the suit making the 'cut' (slicing throat) gesture then backing off the second before they pull him away.
If nothing else, tazers are meant to be used when officers feel themselves in danger, he was on the floor with several ppl on top of him.
That was one of the most rediculous videos ever. He asked a question which Kerry was quite willing to answer. Completely unreasonable force was used when the person was willing to co-operate and leave peacefully. In Britain that would never happen, we have common sense and a police force who are trained to actually deal with the public instead of doing what those cops did. America needs to reform it's political system, constitution and many many other things.
That's insane...
That guy did appear to be a jackass, but the police force used was a bit much.
dis is wat we al quieda in iraq hate abaut amerika!
stupihd amerikans. we whill kill you all!
Death too AMERIKA.
seriously though, that s*** is f***ed up.
How do you figure he was willing to leave? He was resisting arrest, which (iirc) is a crime regardless of the basis of the arrest. I'm not saying it's right that they should be able to take him out for asking questions, but his reaction was totally wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshboy
As for this never happening in Britain, I recall an incident somewhere between 1 and 3 years ago where an elderly man (70-85) was forcibly removed from some sort of political occurance and it caused a large commotion. If anyone else remembers this, please help me with details.
edit: found it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4291388.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4293502.stm
Now that I reread it, I find it wasn't what I remembered, and doesn't say anything about the way in which the police treat the person, but it does to a large extent show how in both America and Britain, you don't have free speech in political assemblies. By the way, he wasn't asked to leave just because he was interrupting, as evidenced by the fact that after being escorted out, he was held for some time by the police under the Terrorism Act.
America is a f@#%ed up place now adays. 20 years ago, things weren't so bad, but now I'm afraid to bring any kids into this awful world.
---
America has been corrupted already this is just something minor showing how come it is corrupted. Wow that video totally violates the right to freedom of speech.
It is corrupted (which that guy was violated by his country), and all I can sadly say yet again is...Quote:
Originally Posted by steve520
...John Titor.
http://www.johntitor.strategicbrains.com/
i have to agree with quzar on this one, although the cops shouldn't have acted entirely the way they did, he reacted the wrong way....
The words "What did i do?" were thrown about like a 12 year old, seriously, you accuse a political leader of corruption your not gonna get a good response, if hes dumb enough not to know why they were attempting to arrest him then he probably belongs in something like prison which removes stupid people from the general public...
The decent thing for John Kerry to do would've been answering the question, and lie when he answered (cause that's what politicians do) because this is going to be a hot topic for some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by XioN980
oh my god. that makes me wonder wtf is wrong with America too. all though he probably could of went with them peacefully and not resisted arrest, there was no reason for them to do that to him. i hope that those cops get fired at the very least.
They probably got promoted, that's how corrupt things in America are thesedays.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLZKLLME0080
I've read (i cant hear the video because my alsa sound driver seems to be ****ed up) that he did attempt to answer the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by VampDude
This has nothing to do with Kerry, he was just a bystander like the rest in the crowed. The issue is between the police and the annoying guy.
I also understand it wasnt so much of a question so much as a rant which ultimately served no purpose. The kid was being a dumb shit, and the cops over reacted. Dont let the media trick you into thinking anyone else was involved. Use your common sense.
Freedom of speech is great. Being a jack ass and claiming you have the right to do so is not.
Still, the tazer was used illegally. The right thing to do would have been just to escort him outside if he was causing a disruption.
amercia gone crazy these days that why i moved but on that video that gone abit too far there was no need for taser is only question wot dont tell me they are afraid of a few question to answer and all
If they said they would tazer me if I didn't STFU I would stop. That guy is an idiot, but at the same time he did nothing.
I bet your glad your Canadian, I'm glad in so many ways that I'm not American :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SnesR0X
If you really believe that then you do not understand what freedom of speech is supposed to protect. Freedom of speech protects the person he is talking about against police reaction for publishing his book. It protects this dumbass kid if he wants to tell anyone he wants these things. It does not protect you from saying whatever you want when you are told you are being allowed to ask a speaker one question and you ramble on. After I saw this newer longer video it's even more apparent how much he deserved to be removed. While he was rambling on, the person who had let him ask a question was telling him that he needed to ask a question and that he shouldn't be asking 3 questions and giving his own little tirade. When you go into things like this, you are asked to obey certain rules, such as: you can be asked to leave for whatever reason they want. This kind of thing has gone on forever and has in no way hampered freedom of speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve520
What really gets me is that at the end someone(or multiple people?) is heard saying "Rodney King!" and it just goes to show how spoiled and white the crowd was to think that this is ANYTHING like that ( for those of you who have never seen it it requires that you confirm to being 18 or older because it's that ridiculously violent).
edit: Also, apparently the story was that the dude barged in with all the cops following him "demanding" to ask his question, which wasn't allowed because the event had been planned, but he made such a fuss that kerry said that he would answer his question. Anyone who thinks this is a violation of his freedom of speech must not have a concept of how a society without freedom of speech works.
God I HATE PEOPLE FROM FLORIDA! I hope I never meet anyone from there. Especially Floridian programmers... demons, the lot of them.
And the video evidence shows otherwise (hopefully more is released), the police were around but not really near the guy. Also, he stated that Kerry recommended a book earlier on in that conference, which he must of been there a good while without causing any trouble to of of known what the book was before recommending a book to Kerry (which Kerry replied that he had already read it). They only got pissed off with him when he clearly stated that Kerry won the 2004 elections and that there were 5million voters and that the voting counters were counting backwards, then he goes on about Kerry being against Iran/Iraq and whatnot then goes on to say about Bill Clinton's sex scandal in very little words as to a ******* and then 3 seconds after the cops move in and grab him...Quote:
Originally Posted by quzar
...I don't see that there was anything wrong with what the guy did, or with what he said because he was speaking the truth.
A friend of mine replied to it with a simple yet extremely true statement: "getting to ask a question to a visiting speaker is a priviledge, not a right"
as for my previous edit, it was based on info posted alongside a youtube video that someone who was there took, so it's firsthand hearsay. It could be that he barged in a half hour earlier and they waited until Kerry was finished before letting him ask his question, but it is clear that the entire time the cops are DIRECTLY behind him and start getting on his case after he doesn't just ask a question.
reminds me of the ucla taser incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_Taser_incident
I see it as it was that guys own fault and brought it upon himself, he clearly said may i have "one" question, and it was about that book, yet after the question was answered he kept rambling on trying to provoke kerry. same with the ucla student, he didn't have his id he had no reason to be inside the library, he gets mad starts claims of racial profiling blah blah gets out of hand and zap.
as for the UF student
University spokesman Steve Orlando explains: "He apparently asked several questions - he went on for quite awhile - then he was asked to stop."
"He had used his allotted time. His microphone was cut off, then he became upset."
source:http://www.postchronicle.com/news/or...12104340.shtml
Isn't there FREEDOM of Rights in America, like there was FREEDOM of Speech a good while ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by quzar
The cops are behind him, but they're a good distance away thou. If they saw that he was a potential threat they wouldn't of let him in if he supposedly barged in, they would've removed him there and then.Quote:
Originally Posted by quzar
He did have his freedom of speech.He had his right taken away after disobeying the officers.
Its kinda like when you are at school and you have the right to say F**k yet u get in trouble if said in class because of school rules. so you see we have freedom of speech its just kinda fails under social rules.
btw im not some smart ass scholar or w/e but its kinda common sense. feel free to attack me its freedom of speech right? yet its regulated by the forum rules. :)
Freedom of speech allows you to speak what you want, if you cannot say F**k at school then theres an example of the persons freedom of speech and rights being taken away from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by pibster
Since when are private functions governed by the same principles? If we didn't have freedom of speech, nobody in America would be seeing this video (it's not like youtube is much of an underground freedom center). In a private function like that, someone can be ejected for whatever reason the people hosting the function want. He did something they didn't want him to do, they asked him to leave, he refused.Quote:
Originally Posted by VampDude
If he had gotten up and said "is it true that you eat poop?" the same thing would have happened.
Freedom of Speech doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want whenever you want and damn the consequences. What it means it specifically (read the bill of rights) that the government will not pass laws that limit your freedom of speech. If whoever was running the even told the police to eject the person, for whatever reason, it does not infringe upon his freedom of speech.
I can understand your misconception though, most people do for some reason think freedom of speech is universal. I can't count the number of times I've had people respond to infractions about spam, insults, profanity or warez with: "hey I have a freedom of speech, so I can write whatever I want".
exactly, the guy refused the officers demands and theres a law on that i believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by quzar
5924.90 Assault - willfully disobeying an officer.
that makes him a criminal lol his rights are taken away
vamp don't you feel your rights violated since you weren't able to say F**k in your last post?
First of all, the first analogy was faulty because minors aren't entitled to the same rights as adults, and freedom of speech has clear exceptions for profanity and other such things (such as child pornography, advertisement, and things like protecting people's intellectual property).Quote:
Originally Posted by VampDude
Second of all, in the example his freedom of speech was never taken away, he was asked to leave because he used more time than they allowed, then he got all pissed off and faught against them.
You get those too huh? You see, everyone has freedom of speech, however we create rules and regulations. Because martin owns this site, hosts the site, and gives wraggster permission to do as he pleases (no doubt with his own set of regulations) He then has the right to limit what you can and cant talk about on DCemu.Quote:
Originally Posted by quzar
SKIP THIS PART UNLESS YOU ARE INTERESTED IN SITE POLITICS!
Wraggster, of course pretty much lets us choose how to run the site and we mostly do things the Majority Rules way. This system would normally fail, however all the mods like (or at the very least get along with) each other. Very rarely do we have to vote or argue points since our site policy covers pretty much everything (though its still FAR from perfect) but it seems like at least once every couple of months some complicated issue comes along that we have to sort out.
There are no battles for power between the staff because everyone pretty much has an equal say with a very few exceptions. Anyway, no one wants to hear about site politics :P.
Continue Reading!
Much like martin and wraggster can limit what you can and cant do on our site, The school running that open forum has its own set of rules. The idea behind these policies is to prevent conflict, not limit free speech.
This kid is an example of what happens when people ignore the rules. Things become uncomfortable, and law enforcement steps in as a last resort to prevent conflict.
Sadly, this is an example of law enforcement ****ing up. You cant taser an unarmed guy (regardless of how annoying they are) who doesnt exactly seem to be a physical threat to anyone. They have their own rules and regulations regarding how they can enforce the law and when they chose to ignore those rules things become uncomfortable and create even more conflict.
One final thought. Dont mess with your teachers, do what they say. You are still a little idiot in highschool... and you will continue to be on through college (if you are anything like me... and most of the population of teenage to young adult males). Your concerns should be Doing well in school, meeting babes, having safe sex, and just having fun. DO NOT ARGUE WITH THE SCHOOL SYSTEM REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU THINK YOU ARE CORRECT AND THEY ARE WRONG. Trust me, I did my fair share of this. Once you start paying your way through college you begin to see the world quite differently.
Please dont ever try to compare school government to national government again... That is absolutely ridiculous.