AWAKENINGS '04

[Darksaviour69]

i was at the first Digital Games conference in ireland, Awakenings.

the speakers were:

Graeme Devine : Microsoft's Ensemble Studios
The 7th Guest, The 11th Hour, Quake III: Arena, Age of Empires & Age of Mythology

Markus Maki : Remedy Entertainment
Max Payne and The Fall of Max Payne.

Chris van der Kuyl: VIS Entertainment Ltd
State of Emergency

Jason Della Rocca: Program Director, IGDA

http://www.torcinteractive.com/awakenings/speakers.htm

it was a very interesting event.
more intesting was went we all when ddown to the pub and were drinking from 6pm to 2am (i was very drunk at the end, no dinner)

i was talking to Graeme Devine, he thought the DCscene was " very cool"

also i was taking to Jason Della Rocca, i explain about the dc scene, and even thought he thought it was cool too, he thinks its illegal! (the boot code being the problem)

i tried to explain in a drunken state how it was legal, but he was un covinced, but did think it was interesting (i told about FOF)

i give told him about dcemu.co.uk and said that he might look into it, from a legal prospective.

edit:

this got me thinking, it would be helpfull to the scene if we had a web page that simply explain why we think its legal (cause i don't think i sure i understand why)

edit 2:
i forgot, someone asked about the dc version of Max Payne, Markus Maki said "Well, as for the dreamcast version......I never saw any Max payne code running on the Dreamcast"


edit3:
near everyone i was talking to hear of the dc scene, but did not realise how developed it was. (neogeo cd, kos etc) Jason Della Rocca, seemed suprised about the release of feet of fury.

[Christuserloeser]

Pretty interesting. Sounds like a great evening

Jason Della Rocca is correct about the illegality of the boot code, but let's face it: Just because it's copyrighted SEGA code, it doesn't mean that SEGA hates us for using it :-*
IMO copyrights are aimed to prevent commercial use of ideas & concepts, that aren't yours - to prevent commercial exploitation of other peoples work. That just isn't the case if you take an existing idea and create something "new" out of it (Space Invaders - Galaga, Breakout - Arkanoid ) or if you create a game from scratch (Feet Of Fury) but need to use to "copyrighted" boot code by SEGA to get it working on SEGA's platform.

The same is with Beats Of Rage where SNK (Character arts), Yuzo Koshiro (Sound & Music) and SEGA ("Streets Of Rage&quot are involved with their copyrighted material, know about that, but actually love the product, as it's freeware and some kind of a "fan"-game PLUS of a very high quality... 8)

Copyrights however, do have something negative to it, as copyrights sometimes are misused by companies to stop others from getting their innovations sold, that's what happened when Sony stopped BLEEM! by carrying them to court, knowing that Sony would loose the case anyway, but BLEEM! would went bankrupt in the time beeing.

In Communism as it existed, there weren't any copyrights. Everything created was intended to be used for the good of the whole society without having any kind of repression or punishment when something's reproduced by others for others without personal profit.

On the other hand can't be bad to earn something special for something special that you've created ...and to get it protected
That's what made the whole "TETRIS" problem so weird... Nintendo made billions of dollars with selling probably the best game ever created, but Alexey Pajitnikov, for various reasons, never saw the money Nintendo should have paid him.

In Capitalism as it currently exists, there's also a similar interest in something like reproduction without certain restrictions when it comes to certain things like public education, but also applies for other sections of society.

If you have e.g. little record label, you might be interested in someone copying new releases (of a good quality) for his friends (non-commerial purpose), because it's a good advertisement and makes the product or even just the trademark/company known to a new/wider audience.
That certainly isn't the fact with already known companies/trademarks/etc and won't affect the general case of the existance of a 'copyright' itself nor shouldn't - no, can't! - be seen as a warez-promoting statement. Copyright still means copyright, that should especially be taken serious by a site like ours that is open to the general public and has interest in taking responsibility for creating an enviroment suitable for creative people to independently release commerical products for Dreamcast, even if the boot code itself still might be "illegal", seen from a certain point of view.

There was a case that Nintendo has lost, I think it was against Tengen, Wisdom Tree, Accolade, Color Dreams or....however it was to fight for the possibility to create and sell games without official Nintendo license but using the neccessary code to get the games/programs working (on a NES).

Chris

[Eric]

I dont think the homebrew scene is illegal. I do want to say something about gameshark and anyother coding hacking programs. They are made with official coding softwares for everysystem but here is the thing, its kinda like a homebrew game but there selling it and this is the reason why each and every game or atlease most have a warning signature saying not endorsed by so and so. How do they have the rights to sell such a product its like Dan making FoF with the official bin isnt it and he had to make a open source code for it in order to sell it and its also not endorsed by Sega which means they dont have rights am i right?

[Darksaviour69]

well what about products like blaze cheat disks! (this was what i was saying to Jason Della Rocca)
blaze have released lots of unofficall cheat, import disk and making profit for years.

also i remember Dan saying about a court case, i think it was sega vs accolade, not sure, back in the 90s. accolade released something they had made without a offical developement kit, but used the boot code. sega lost the case, with the court saying it was not just for them to copyright a line of code to stop anycode working on the system.

that might not be 100% right but i think that what it was..

[Christuserloeser]

Hehe, I just ment that I understand why Jason Della Rocca thinks that way, but I don't agree to the general term "Illegal!" for beeing forced to use a stupid boot code ;D

I think you are right with that Accoloade case...

[Mental2k]

Anyone think if we asked sega they'd licence us the boot code free?

[Kamjin]

[quote author=Darksaviour69 link=board=off;num=1098094994;start=0#0 date=10/18/04 at 05:23:14]


also i was taking to Jason Della Rocca, i explain about the dc scene, and even thought he thought it was cool too, he thinks its illegal! (the boot code being the problem)

i tried to explain in a drunken state how it was legal, but he was un covinced, but did think it was interesting (i told about FOF)

[/quote]
Jason is taking a cautious stand, especially about since his job is in the IGDA.. (In case Jason decides to visit.. Kudos on the Job!! Nice! 8) )

but for legality the sega vs. accolade is pretty much the rule, this is the basis of how bleem, and the gamesharks are released.

[MetaFox]

[quote author=Darksaviour69 link=board=off;num=1098094994;start=0#0 date=10/18/04 at 05:23:14]this got me thinking, it would be helpfull to the scene if we had a web page that simply explain why we think its legal (cause i don't think i sure i understand why)[/quote]Working on it. :P

I'm a sucker for the law.

I've written many a post in the past about why dreamcast development is illegal, why emulation is legal, etc.

I just have to group it all together. :P

The jist of it, just for fun:

On the IP.bin:
[quote author=MetaFox link=board=off;num=1098094994;start=0#7 date=10/19/04 at 13:32:16]The IP.bin contains 3 bootstraps, one of which must be present exactly as originally programmed in order for the machine to start a game - and that is the bootstrap which contains the Developed by or Licensed by Sega screen. We have a completely legal IP.bin, developed by Lienus, that replaces the other 2 bootstraps which can be modified.

There was a case that went to the United States Supreme court in which Sega sued Accolade for disassembling the boot sequence of the Genesis to release unlicensed software. The court ruled in favor of Accolade, making unlicensed independant software legal.

Here is the relevant quote from the case, Sega v. Accolade (1992)

"In light of the public policies underlying the Act, we conclude that, when the person seeking the understanding has a legitimate reason for doing so and when no other means of access to the unprotected elements exists, such disassembly is as a matter of law a fair use of the copyrighted work."[/quote]
On developing independent software for the Dreamcast:
[quote author=MetaFox link=board=off;num=1098094994;start=0#7 date=10/19/04 at 13:44:14]We use a development library (KallistiOS - formerly libdream) which uses no proprietary Sega code, and is completely developed from the ground up at hardware-level from years of dissasembly from dedicated coders, and graciously released for free under the KOS/BSD license. The other main development library (libronin) also is developed from disassembly, and contains no proprietary Sega code. This was released under a custom open-source license. And we compile it on free compilers (GCC - The GNU C Compiler, and GPP - The C++ varient of the GNU C Compiler) which have also been created through years of tedious disassembly, and have also been generously released for free under the GNU Public License.[/quote]
And on Sega's position on Dreamcast independant software:
[quote author=MetaFox link=board=DCGP2004;num=1096668276;start=0#10 date=10/03/04 at 01:17:35]The independant Dreamcast developers have been in contact with Sega since the beginning, and some of the employees who were in high standing at Sega have actually helped foster the community as we know it today. John Byrd, who was the head of Developer Tech Support of Sega at the time, provided alot of the technical information of the VMU to the independant community, and at one time, Sega was even offering official technicial support to unlicensed VMU developers. John Byrd also was closely involved in KOS, and urged Dan Potter to choose a BSD style license for KOS so that independant software created with the KallistiOS library did not clash with the official release license, and thus not only allowed unofficial independant software to be released commercially, but also opened up the possibility for independant software to be released officially.[/quote]

[Kamjin]

That pretty much sums it up, in essence the first part is all that's needed. The rest is just icing.

Although it would be nice if we'd formally ask for Sega's blessing..