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Thread: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

                  
   
  1. #31
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    I know for a fact the P3 has 256k of cache, the celeron has 128k and as does the XBOX CPU. The latest 32bit CPUs have 512k of cache (for example, the AthlonXP Thoroughbreds only have 256k of cache, where as the Barton core has 512k)

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    I'm just saying we don't have no Zsknights of the DC scene or anything.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    hi

    Hola wrote:
    I hate people always say the DC scene has great coders when we have average coders. Most DC coders are very new to coding and dont have any professional experence. The reason you dont see great scale projects is simply because DC doesnt have as nearly trained coders as those who works on PC emulators. Take pagefault for example. He's not even a great coder but I think he could out code anyone that works on the DC at the current moment. I'm not trying to bash any coders but dc coders have less pratice and can always fall back on the "Hey we do this for fun and we do it for free" however if any pc coder gave the excuse ever they'd be constantly flamed and hated.
    i will only answer this:
    How many Xbox coders know about sh4 coding. They are PC x86 coders and as you may know Xbox is x86. But Dreamcast is not. And if you know how to code for a PC you can code for Xbox. Most of the time that doesn't work with DreamCast you need to know more then just coding/compiling for PC/Xbox. And not to say what more them 90% of the Xbox coders use the leaked oficial Xbox SDK and not a free open-source ~SDK~ like KOS, Libronin or the old LibDream. And that is equal to warez coding. And one more thing i didn't saw any Xbox homebrew going comercial, do you?

    (anyway i don't know much about the Xbox scene just what i read from time to time )

    -Mekanaizer-
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    Don't dream, play DreamCast!!!

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    I always hated the warez excuse because I for one could care less if your using warez to devolope with. Also I wouldnt call of the DC games that have went comerical a suggeces. FoF barly broke even and that was the biggest of the comerical releases.

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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    [quote author=Pedro link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=30#30 date=07/21/04 at 17:54:59]I know for a fact the P3 has 256k of cache, the celeron has 128k and as does the XBOX CPU. The latest 32bit CPUs have 512k of cache (for example, the AthlonXP Thoroughbreds only have 256k of cache, where as the Barton core has 512k)[/quote]

    Many P3s had 512kb of L2 cache. The Xbox CPU has a 133Mhz fsb and celerons did not. The best thing it has been compared to is a mobile celeron.
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  6. #36
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    hi

    Hola don't talk like that about things that Xbox doesn't have (and never will, cos with the way things are going Xbox coders will use the M$ SDK til Xbox is dead). The Xbox scene ISN'T half the DreamCast scene. Is just warez nothing more. Only some stuff is good to have (like that Apple emu), the ones that are no warez. Which is less then 10% of it. I end my Xbox talk here.

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  7. #37
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    Hola - there's one massive difference between Dreamcast stuff and PC/Xbox stuff, and it is actually related to experience. However, it's not what you think.

    The problem is that a PC and Xbox both use an x86 CPU, which is extremely well known, well suited to general purpose calculations although poorly suited to 3D math, has a host of very mature development tools, uses a well specified set of programming interfaces to communicate with the hardware, and so on. The platform is extremely well known, and it's fairly easy to write good code on it.

    There are other systems which are similar. For example, a modern Mac uses a processor which is different to the x86 series used in PCs, but many of the same things work, it has excellent tools, and the same kind of well understood programming interfaces.

    Contrast that with the Dreamcast. It uses a 200MHz SH-4. How many other devices do you know that use an SH-4? Some of the older handheld PDA-alike machines do, and that's about it. It is a very different CPU to the x86, most of the well-known optimizations for x86 CPUs don't work on an SH-4, many of them are in fact detremental, the CPU itself works in a fundamentally different way, it's not that good at general purpose computation but it's very good at 3D math, it has a really crappy cache system which requires a completely different coding style to a PC, and frankly the compilers available for it suck.

    Specifically to the Dreamcast, the programming interfaces for accessing the hardware are nothing at all like those on a PC, because the hardware is nothing like a PC either.

    In other words, the problem is that the Dreamcast is a completely different machine to a PC. Of course we don't have that much experience with it - it's components are completely different to all common components we may have experience with, and they aren't really used in anything else. Additionally, it's designed for 3D gaming, not emulation. The architecture of the Dreamcast is totally unsuited to it - it's suited to 3D games, has specialised hardware for that, and that's all it was designed to be good at.

    Let me put it this way - very few of the prominent coders are complete amateurs. The only one that comes to mind at the moment is Ian Michael, who essentially knew no C or C++ when he started doing Dreamcast stuff, but he had done some programming before. Many of them do this kind of stuff (or something related) as a job, and others may be relatively inexperienced (like me, for example - I've really only been doing "proper" programming for four or five years, and I did programming in BASIC before that) but that doesn't mean they aren't any good.

    Admittedly, we have very few people with a lot of experience in SH-4 assembly, for example. When could we possibly have got experience with it, considering that virtually nothing else actually uses it? Compare that to a PC, where you have very large numbers of people who can write in x86 assembly. You also have many people who can write M68K assembly, Z80 assembly, 6502 assembly and so on, because they were all very popular CPUs. The SH-4 isn't, and never has been.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    Very well said. Only thing i want to add is the clarification that because the tools for x86 cpus are very well made and have matured over the years, it is relatively harder to write bad code for it. Unlike other consoles (like the DC) there really arnt that many things you can do beyond what the compiler does for you. Since gcc dosnt do well with code for the DC, structuring it properly and understanding the machine aides in the development for it, and can allow it to achieve things that would never happen on a comperable 200Mhz machine. Since the Xbox is just an x86 cpu, not unlike those sitting in most desktops, it will not be able to perform any better than its PC counterparts. One of the biggest reasons that an Xbox seems to be able to do much more graphics wise than a 733 p3 pc with a gf3 or whatever is because not only does it have barely any OS overhead (in compairison to a PC in which things are always running in the background [windows PC]) and because the directX interface and drivers are integrated. Since DirectX only has to understand how to do what that GPU can do, it is made to more directly interface with the hardware. A standard PC works with many interchangeable parts that plugin (im talking software here, OS, Drivers, etc) and those will always be less efficeint than one large part designed for all three. That however is just in relation to the graphics system, and the Processing power compared to a PC when overhead is taken into account.
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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    [quote author=Hola link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=15#28 date=07/21/04 at 15:37:26]
    I hate people always say the DC scene has great coders when we have average coders. Most DC coders are very new to coding and dont have any professional experence. The reason you dont see great scale projects is simply because DC doesnt have as nearly trained coders as those who works on PC emulators. Take pagefault for example. He's not even a great coder but I think he could out code anyone that works on the DC at the current moment. I'm not trying to bash any coders but dc coders have less pratice and can always fall back on the "Hey we do this for fun and we do it for free" however if any pc coder gave the excuse ever they'd be constantly flamed and hated.
    [/quote]

    To put it nicely... ____ you..
    and next time don't use me as a reference unless
    you actually know what I've done in the Elec./Comp.
    Industry to date.

    The point is you ARE trying to bash someone.. That's
    right we do it for free.. I don't think you understand
    that concept. unlike the other's I'm not here to make
    an excuse for you.. If you want me to code an efficent
    scatter/gather dma engine for the PVR, I'll do so
    add the graphics people, main engine design guys
    sure.. tommorow! but who's gonna pay the salaries?
    my house doesn't pay itself? and I'm not going to loose
    it just so you can play your pirated rom, on a great
    emulator..
    When you get old enough you'll understand.. do you
    take your excess free time, and read the lastest
    specs/etc.. so that you can excell at your job, or
    do you make a game so that the odd teenager
    can sit back and flame you for no appearant reason.
    And if you disagree with me please post this on
    other sites and ask the other coders what they
    think of the subject.. even the Zsnes team.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Chankast to Xbox Port Rumour

    [quote author=Pedro link=board=DCPCEmu;num=1090323867;start=30#30 date=07/21/04 at 17:54:59]I know for a fact the P3 has 256k of cache, the celeron has 128k and as does the XBOX CPU. The latest 32bit CPUs have 512k of cache (for example, the AthlonXP Thoroughbreds only have 256k of cache, where as the Barton core has 512k)[/quote]Since all the coders have handily taken care of the important topics, I'll take this. Pedro, have you taken a look at the newer P4s? They have a lot of cache. A jackload. But I don't see why the cache is all that relevant, since you still have all the other problems even if it had the full cache of a P3 and no overhead at all.

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