The Proof for Christ's Claims

[ICE]

there's a man in brum centre who screams of jesus and preaches to those who walk by in the monotony of life, not paying any attention simply continuing their cycles passed down to them by fathers past; the man returns on thursday, every week at 11am and returns to them the speech of last.

__________
you may continue mr ice

your point being????? that some people like to stand outside and preach?

[MasterMind]

NO ANSWERED MY QUESTION lol. If Jesus was a prophet of God according to Islam, and Muslims think that prophets can't lie. Jesus claimed to be the song of God, but Muslims don't believe this, so did Jesus lie?

You said Jesus is a Prophet in teachings of Islam...Yes. Jesus cannot Lie..Yes. But the people who corrupted the Bible and text and created different versions of Bible and they can Lie.

Let me quote the Bible.

Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God.

"And the devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, You are Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak; for they knew that he was Christ (Cristos = chosen one)."

and again "He [Jesus] said unto them [the disciples], But what do you say that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

So if Jesus the sone of God it says that Seth was son of Adam and he (Seth) was son of God
"Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"

The word trinity is not even in the Bible..It was MAN made idea.
The Bible statement "Hear Oh Isreal your Lord is One Lord." makes more sense to All including ME. That is why I chose Islam.

Even the Bible says "No ONE has SEEN God" ...How simple is that. True!!

Doesn't Jesus say in the Bible the Father is GREATER than I?

Doesn't Jesus say the Father has SENT me? If he was God or part of God he should have said I sent myself

Doesnt Jesus say in the Bible "My Father is greater than I"? Father means God in his time.

Didn't Jesus rebuke someone for calling him good and said He is not good there is one Good except God?

When stated in the Bible Jesus said "I and the Father are one." It is saying we are in agreement. For example if you say I don't want people to smoke in bathrooms...then I say me and you the same. That means you and I are in agreement.
Or an organization stands up for a cause they agree on they say lets stand up as ONE. God sent Jesus to preach the religion of monotheism and to worship one Creator.

I rest my case. I hope God guides those who are lost. I am not offended and I hope I did not offend anyone

Also...
Adam the First man our Father was made from his own image not from the image of God. The Quran says he was made from his own (Adam) image. Unique image. God's physical attributes are not like humans...meaning God has hands and feet and face but it is nothing like our hands, feet, or face.

[ICE]

You said Jesus is a Prophet in teachings of Islam...Yes. Jesus cannot Lie..Yes. But the people who corrupted the Bible and text and created different versions of Bible and they can Lie.

i am so sick of hearing that . the bible is not corrupted. if you disagree GIVE ME PROOF. i mean come on! there are different versions of the bible therefore its corrupt? wha? some versions may be a bit screwy but no one is forcing you to use those are they? the quaran is just as old as the bible so i could just as easily say that its corrupt. evidently no one needs any proof for the things they say around here...

as for jesus not claiming to be god-- No, Jesus never said the exact three words, "I am God". But Jesus also never said the exact four words, "I am a prophet" or the exact four words "I am a man," but we know he was both a prophet and a man. Jesus may not have said the exact sentence "I am God" but he did claim the divine name for himself (Exo. 3:14 with John 8:58) and he also received worship (Matt. 2:2; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38).
When Moses was up at the Mount speaking to God, Moses asked God what his name was. God said, "I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’” (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Right after this the Jews pick up stones to throw at him. Later, in John 10:30-33 Jesus claimed to be one with the Father and the Jews wanted to stone him again because they said to Jesus, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God." Jesus had claimed the divine name for his own in the Jews wanted to kill him for it. Therefore, from Jesus' own mouth we see that he was claiming to be God.

The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; that is, the Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. Each is fully God in nature. Each person is not a god in itself. Instead, the totality of all three persons comprises the one God. There are not three gods, but one. We believe there are no partners with God because we believe there is only one God in all existence.

At first, some may look at this teaching and be confused by it. How can God be three persons in one God? This is a good question because it is a bit difficult to grasp. But, that is what we would expect isn't it, when we encounter God? Would we not expect to find some things about God's Infinite nature a bit beyond our comprehension? This is not unreasonable. However, we must not make the mistake of saying something as ridiculous as, "It doesn't make sense. Therefore it is true."

the father, son, and holy spirit are all called god here respectively-- Phil. 1:2 John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9 Acts 5:3-4

each are called creater-- Isaiah 64:8; 44:24 John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17 Job 33:4; 26:13

each all knowing-- 1 John 3:20 John 16:30; 21:17 1 Cor. 2:10-11

EDIT: um as for all that "didnt jesus say blah blah blah" lol um the trinity is 3 separate beings existing as one. him saying my father is greater than i and what-not makes perfect sense when you understand the concept of the trinity which you clearly do not.
I REST MY CASE lol.

[tactful mcbee]

You said Jesus is a Prophet in teachings of Islam...Yes. Jesus cannot Lie..Yes. But the people who corrupted the Bible and text and created different versions of Bible and they can Lie.

Let me quote the Bible.

Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God.

"And the devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, You are Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak; for they knew that he was Christ (Cristos = chosen one)."

and again "He [Jesus] said unto them [the disciples], But what do you say that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

So if Jesus the sone of God it says that Seth was son of Adam and he (Seth) was son of God
"Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"

The word trinity is not even in the Bible..It was MAN made idea.
The Bible statement "Hear Oh Isreal your Lord is One Lord." makes more sense to All including ME. That is why I chose Islam.

Even the Bible says "No ONE has SEEN God" ...How simple is that. True!!

Doesn't Jesus say in the Bible the Father is GREATER than I?

Doesn't Jesus say the Father has SENT me? If he was God or part of God he should have said I sent myself

Doesnt Jesus say in the Bible "My Father is greater than I"? Father means God in his time.

Didn't Jesus rebuke someone for calling him good and said He is not good there is one Good except God?

When stated in the Bible Jesus said "I and the Father are one." It is saying we are in agreement. For example if you say I don't want people to smoke in bathrooms...then I say me and you the same. That means you and I are in agreement.
Or an organization stands up for a cause they agree on they say lets stand up as ONE. God sent Jesus to preach the religion of monotheism and to worship one Creator.

I rest my case. I hope God guides those who are lost. I am not offended and I hope I did not offend anyone

Also...
Adam the First man our Father was made from his own image not from the image of God. The Quran says he was made from his own (Adam) image. Unique image. God's physical attributes are not like humans...meaning God has hands and feet and face but it is nothing like our hands, feet, or face.

At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Exodus 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty, and at least Moses saw God, not in a vision or dream, as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible--which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.

greater than i quote is an easy one to answer. greater (meizon in greek) is a quantitive term descriptive of postion. but in hebrews jesus is said to be better (kreitton in greek) than the angels. better is a qualitative term desriptive of nature. example the president is greater than i am in position but not better in nature. jesus being in the flesh was in a lower position than the father.

you say the bible is corrupt, but that contridicts your own scriptures sura 4:47 & 54, 5:44-49, 10:95. the muslim may charge that jews and christians have mistranslated the bible, but the quran says that they only misinterpret and disbelieve it (sura 3:70-71). according to the quran, only jews have mistranslated scripture (sura 2:75-79; 4:46). textually, all variations of the quran were destroyed by caliph uthman (ruled 646-656) and his version is the only version in existence.

[ICE]

tactful!! high five!!!! *raises hand in anticipation*

[tactful mcbee]

i am not trying to attack muslims. the muslim zeal for god is admorable, but i believe you have been decieved and i'm trying to show you some of the evidence.

unlike the quran, the bible has fulfilled prophesies inorder to prove it is legit. Deuteronomy 5:1 (used by muslims!!!sura 61:6) said "and there arose not a prophet since in isreal like moses, whom the Lord knew face to face. muslims say this is muhammad, but muhammad had the quran revealed to him by the angel gabriel, not directly by God; and muhammad claims to be a descendant of ishmael not isreal.

jesus is the only prophet (my God) that fulfills this.

[MasterMind]

i am so sick of hearing that . the bible is not corrupted. if you disagree GIVE ME PROOF. i mean come on! there are different versions of the bible therefore its corrupt? wha? some versions may be a bit screwy but no one is forcing you to use those are they? the quaran is just as old as the bible so i could just as easily say that its corrupt. evidently no one needs any proof for the things they say around here...


I REST MY CASE lol.

Your OWN scholars say that the Bible has been changed from the original..If you don't believe me
Read the preface of King James Version of the Bible.
PREFACE page iii and iv:

Some parts reads:
""The King James Version has with good reason been termed 'the noblest monument of English prose.' Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration of 'its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of express... "

"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for a revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bibles was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901."

"Sometimes it is evident that the text has suffered in transmission, but none of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration. Here we can only follow the best judgment of competent scholars as to the most probable reconstruction of the original text."

"Many difficulties and obscurities, of course, remain."

I can type more because it is right in my face but I will not. I will let you read it and make your conclusions about the changed Bible.

As far as contradictions..There are so many for example just to mention a few contradictions the trinity:

Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God.
Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.
Isaiah 45:1 - "Anointed" does not mean "God".
Matthew 14:23, 19:13, 26:39, 27:46, 26:42-44 - Jesus prayed.
Matthew 24:36 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God had different wills.
Matthew 28:18 - All power was given to Jesus.
Mark 1:35, 6:46, 14:35-36 - Jesus prayed.
Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19 - Jesus denied divinity.Mark 12:28-29 - God is one.
Mark 13:32 - Jesus was not all-knowing.

It may seem that I am putting down your religion but I am only telling you the alternative is the true religion. If you take a Quran from different countries and/or continents you will see all are the same ...meaning in Arabic (original text) and no versions. The supposid contradictions you mentioned can be easily explained but I don't want to waste much more of my time because I don't think you are observing Islam objectively...You have to accept something you have is false before you begin to accept a truth. Or you can just not lie about a religion and say stop saying it has contradictions when it does not... If I were you I would study religions of the world objectively.

Oh and "Ice Man" ...We all know that in the world of MMA no one is unbeatable and styles makes fighsts...So there will be someone who will show Chuck what is up...I know who can beat him easily.

[ICE]

sura 16:61 "if god were to take mankind to task for their wrongoing, he would not leave here one living creature"

thought good works got you to heaven?

the quran cites its elegance as evidence for its inspiration in sura 17:88 -"If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."

the quran is right because its well written? interesting theory..

[tactful mcbee]

Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God.
read my past post

Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.
if jesus is god...no problem there

Isaiah 45:1 - "Anointed" does not mean "God".
emanuel means god with us

Matthew 14:23, 19:13, 26:39, 27:46, 26:42-44 - Jesus prayed.
he was our perfect example of how to make it in a ungodly world. thus he prayed for our example

Matthew 24:36 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
jesus gave up his divine power in order to become a perfect sacrifice. see phillipians 2

Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God had different wills.
Jesus did not ask to be killed. As a man, he did not want to go through the torturous ordeal of the crucifixion. What man would desire such a horrible death? The fact that Jesus did not want to go through it is proof enough that he was human. But it does not mean that he was not divine.

Matthew 28:18 - All power was given to Jesus.
paul explains in phillipians jesus gave up his power when he became man, but after that his power was restored. see phillipians 2
Mark 1:35, 6:46, 14:35-36 - Jesus prayed.
see above

Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19 - Jesus denied
divinity.
John 8:24,M “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (the word "he" is not in the original greek). John 8:58, " Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Those of the verses were Jesus claims divinity. You can call him a liar if you want. But I believe him

Mark 12:28-29 - God is one.
see definition of trinity. NOT TRIAD!!Basic Christian theology teaches that Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. In Heb. 2:9 that Jesus was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ." Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time.


Mark 13:32 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
see phillipians 2

by the way, translations in themselves are corrupt. thats why i study the biblia hebraica leningradensia( the hebrew bible)

[ICE]

Your OWN scholars say that the Bible has been changed from the original..If you don't believe me
Read the preface of King James Version of the Bible.
PREFACE page iii and iv:

are you saying that not one word on the quran is different than the original? .also what tactful said

"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for a revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bibles was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901."

after this "revision" did any of the core beliefs of christianity change? NO. i dont know who your quoting but they are trying to make a trivial revision sound like they re-wrote the bible. and/or what tactful said.

Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God.
Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.
Isaiah 45:1 - "Anointed" does not mean "God".
Matthew 14:23, 19:13, 26:39, 27:46, 26:42-44 - Jesus prayed.
Matthew 24:36 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God had different wills.
Matthew 28:18 - All power was given to Jesus.
Mark 1:35, 6:46, 14:35-36 - Jesus prayed.
Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19 - Jesus denied divinity.Mark 12:28-29 - God is one.
Mark 13:32 - Jesus was not all-knowing.

most of those can be immediately explained through a basic knowledge of the trinity. and the other one doesnt make sense at all. you just copied and pasted those with out checking them lol. i mean it says Do not praise and worship images. thats a core belief for us. thats what the verse confirms. nothing contradicts anything there or in any of the others.

fyi The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

* TORAH - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).
* PSALMS - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
* GOSPEL - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

so the quran says believe in the bible but you say you dont? hmm intersting..