The Spirituality Thread

[Kaiser]

I really don't care what you believe in either Iceman. I'm no right-wing bible thumper. I just didn't like how you called the Catholic church non-christian. Thats just a very dumb comment to make.

I'm still interested to find out what church you belong to so I can get a better understanding of where your coming from.

[ICE]

I never said it wasn't required to be a Catholic. It is. Babies are baptized as a symbolic ceremony marking their entrance in to the church. it isn't anything more then that.

thats wrong according to catholic.com.

*sigh
I know what your trying to do here. Priests are usually called fathers while higher ranked officials are usually addressed differently. The pope for instance is usually addressed as "your holiness" or "Holy Father." Try not to delve to deep into this either. Its simply a sign of respect.

you do realized that jesus said that no man is good and holy right? calling the pope holy is directly in defiance of that. john 8:41 says we have but one father. addressing the pope as father is declaring him as god and thats an title the pope has never declined.

I'm still waiting for you to argue against my significant points.

you havent made any.

i'll link you to a page that will explain to you that catholics dont even think they're the same as us! the call US wrong constantly! catholic salvation

EDIT:

But I will say one thing in regards to ice_mans point about not taking the entire bible literally. The only problem with that is where to draw the line. Could the whole bible not be meant to be taken literally?

um i find it very easy to see where the line is. anyone who cant maybe should leave the studying to the people who can.

[Kaiser]

thats wrong according to catholic.com.

According to Catholic catechisms, Baptism is the symbolic entry into the church. It is the acceptance of Christ and the first part of being a Christian (let alone a catholic).

Most Christian churches accept the ritual of baptism.

you do realized that jesus said that no man is good and holy right? calling the pope holy is directly in defiance of that. john 8:41 says we have but one father. addressing the pope as father is declaring him as god and thats an title the pope has never declined.

I knew what you were planning to do from the start. IT IS NOT ADDRESSING HIM AS GOD. No real Catholic worships the Pope. Do not take the bible so damn literally. Jesus simply meant not to take another man as divine and to worship them. This is simple christian doctrine you have interpretted wrongly to make a point.

I like how you completely ingnored my statement of not delving to deep into it.

I'd still like to find out what church you belong to.

[tactful mcbee]

Comparison of Beliefs
* Taken from Roman Catholicism: Scripture vs. Tradition
The Doctrine of Jesus
The Bible
(New American Standard Bible)
The Roman Catholic Church
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)
Jesus the Savior:
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. RCC teaches that “by His death and resurrection, Jesus Christ has ‘opened’ heaven to us” (1026). Each person attains his own salvation by grace and by the Holy Spirit, good works (1477).



Jesus the Redeemer:
1 Peter 1:17-19
And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. RCC teaches that Mary is the sinless co- Redeemer. “Without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and work of her son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with Him…being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race" (494).

Jesus the Redeemer: Jesus our Advocate and only Mediator:
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; RCC teaches that Mary “did not lay aside [her] saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.” She “is ...Advocate… and Mediatrix” (969).

Jesus, Head of the Church:
Ephesians 1:22-23
And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. RCC teaches that the Pope, “by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has Full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise un-hindered” (882). He exercises infallibility when “he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals” (891).

Jesus the soon-coming King:
Acts 1:11
and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” RCC denies this by teaching that Jesus returns daily to the altars of Catholic churches to be worshipped: “The body and blood…soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ…is truly, really and substantially contained" in the Eucharist (1374-1378)

Christ's Work
Jesus is the propitiation for our sin
1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. RCC teaches that sins are expiated (forgiven) in purgatory through “a cleansing fire” and that we “must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace" (1030, 31; 1472-75)

Jesus finished the work of redemption
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Hebrews 7:27-28
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. RCC denies it is finished. “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice…the same Christ who offered Himself once in bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner" (1367). “Every time this mystery is celebrated the work of our redemption is carried on" (1405). The sacrifice is “offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead" (1414)

His life, death, and resurrection provide the only way to be saved
Acts 4:12
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.” RCC denies this by claiming the Catholic Church “is necessary for salvation" (846) and claiming “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims" (841).

His shed blood is the only remission for sins
Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hebrews 10:18
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. RCC teaches “an indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose Guilt has already been forgiven, which…may be applied to the living or the dead" (1471).

Jesus cleanses us from sin
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— RCC teaches that “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (1030).

Doctrine of Salvation
Salvation is proclaimed in the Gospel
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. RCC preaches a different gospel by demanding additional requirements for salvation, including: the Sacraments (1129), meritorious masses (1405), church membership (846), purgatory (1030), indulgences (1498), and baptism (1256).

Salvation is of God, not man
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation— having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
John 1:13
who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. RCC teaches “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration ... without which no one can enter the Kingdom of God" (1213, 1215)

Salvation is through faith, not works
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Psalms 49:7-8
No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to God a ransom for him— For the redemption of his soul is costly, and he should cease trying forever— RCC teaches salvation through faith plus works. People can obtain their own salvation and at the same time cooperate in saving their brothers through good works and indulgences (1477, 1479).

Salvation is by grace, not merit
Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. RCC denies justifying grace is undeserved: “We can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life” (2027)

Salvation rejected is Hell
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, RCC teaches that “Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer…eternal fire" (1035)


The Doctrine of Justification
Justification, what is it? - The act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal

Romans 5:18 says:
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches a different doctrine on justification compared to that of Biblical Christianity.

Biblical Doctrine Roman Catholic Doctrine
Justification is God’s act of declaring a sinner righteous by faith
Justification is God’s act of making man righteous by good works and obedience

Christ’s imputed righteousness makes the believer acceptable to God
Infused sanctifying grace through the sacraments makes the believer acceptable to God

Justification is received by faith alone
Justification is achieved by faith plus good works

Justification enables God to see the sinner as if he were just
Justification is granted the sinner when he is actually made just

Justification cannot increase since the ground is the perfect righteousness of Christ
Justification can be increased by receiving more sacraments

Justification is a permanent verdict and is not affected by sin
Justification is affected by sin

Justification comes at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ
Final justification is not determined until death

Emphasis is on God’s verdict
Emphasis is on the sacraments





Dogmas Declared by the
Roman Catholic Church

Here are some Doctrines or Dogmas declared by the Roman Catholic Church. These Dogmas violate the teaching of Scripture.

Year Statement

437 Proclamation that infant baptism regenerates the soul


500 The Mass instituted as a re-sacrifice of Jesus for the remission of sins


593 Declaration that sins need to be purged, established by Pope Gregory I


600 Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints, and angels


786 Worship of cross, images, and relics authorized


995 Canonization of dead people as saints initiated by Pope John XV


1000 Attendance at Mass made mandatory under the penalty of mortal sin


1079 Celibacy of priesthood, decreed by Pope Gregory VII


1090 Rosary, repetitious praying with beads, invented by Peter the Hermit


1184 The Inquisition, instituted by the Council of Verona


1190 The sale of Indulgences established to reduce time in Purgatory


1215 Transubstantiation, proclaimed by Pope Innocent III


1215 Confession of sins to priests, instituted by Pope Innocent III


1229 Bible placed on Index of Forbidden Books in Toulouse


1438 Purgatory elevated from doctrine to dogma by Council of Florence


1545 Tradition claimed equal in authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent


1546 Apocryphal Books declared cannon by Council of Trent


1854 Immaculate Conception of Mary, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX


1870 Infallibility of the Pope, proclaimed by Vatican Council


1922 Virgin Mary proclaimed co-redeemer with Jesus by Pope Benedict XV

[Kaiser]

I'm sorry but a bunch of copy and pasted "information" (and I use that word loosely) is not an argument. Thats a bunch of evangalical bible-thumping if you ask me. Your obviously interpretting the bible differently. The Catholic church has made many mistakes in the past. But most of the stuff your pointing at in that list is either irrelavent or simply incorrect.


Can we accept that and move on?


I'm not trying to get you to accept Catholic doctrine. You might have different beliefs and thats fine by me. Early Christianity thrived on diversity. I'm just asking for you to open your mind a bit and ackowledge that the Catholic church is a Christian one. Its really simple.

[ICE]

According to Catholic catechisms, Baptism is the symbolic entry into the church. It is the acceptance of Christ and the first part of being a Christian (let alone a catholic).

Most Christian churches accept the ritual of baptism.

again thats wrong. read the above post by tactful. thats not catholic doctrine and saying it is dosent make it so.

I knew what you were planning to do from the start. IT IS NOT ADDRESSING HIM AS GOD. No real Catholic worships the Pope. Do not take the bible so damn literally. Jesus simply meant not to take another man as divine and to worship them. This is simple christian doctrine you have interpretted wrongly to make a point.

lol your counter point is dont take that verse so literally? read like the very last line on tactful's post. the vatican calls the pope infallible.

I like how you completely ingnored my statement of not delving to deep into it.

I'd still like to find out what church you belong to.

i ignored it because thats the wrong approach to the topic and im not part of a church currently.

I'm just asking for you to open your mind a bit and ackowledge that the Catholic church is a Christian one. Its really simple.

but its a lie. the vatican even says they're different.

yes we have different beliefs. the vatican says mary is co-redeemer with christ. i disagree. the vatican say the pope is infallible. i disagree. the vatican says to pray to mary and angles and dead prophets. i disagree.

heres an idea. google "are catholics christians" and see what the masses think. almost the entire first page says no.

[SSaxdude]

um i find it very easy to see where the line is. anyone who cant maybe should leave the studying to the people who can.

Could you maybe answer my question instead of trying to flame me?

Well homework time for me.

[ICE]

Could you maybe answer my question instead of trying to flame me?

Well homework time for me.

your question was a what if kinda question. i suppose if you want to think its a analogies you could but that would be wrong. if you look at the context in the hebrew its very clear whats what but if you cant do that and your not sure guessing is not your best option ever. i wasnt flaming. stop being so sensitive... im a very sarcastic guy and sarcasm doesnt translate well through typed word so sorry..

[tactful mcbee]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, or CCC, is an official exposition of the teachings of the Catholic Church, first published in French in 1992 by the authority of Pope John Paul II

that means this is the catholic churches current beliefs therefore its critical information of the catholic belief system. if you are a catholic this "evangalical bible-thumping" should be rebuked, if you can.

if you want me to type your belief system its going to take a while

and these are not mistakes of the catholic church its doctrine

[Kaiser]

Perhaps I'm approaching this wrong.

again thats wrong. read the above post by tactful. thats not catholic doctrine and saying it is dosent make it so.

Indeed saying I'm wrong does not make it so either. Nether does pointing to a website. We'll move away from that to though.

lol your counter point is dont take that verse so literally? read like the very last line on tactful's post. the vatican calls the pope infallible.

No, again your completely misunderstanding (or blindly ignoring) what I said. I said don't take it literally. Catholics believe your interpretation is wrong. Deal with it. You have no way of proving yourself right and neither do we. Accept the difference.

The Pope will only claim infallability on dogma not doctrine. Get your facts straight. Infallability doesn't mean "the pope is always right" it means that certain statements by the pope with support of dogmatic teachings are the true teachings of Christ (at least according to Catholic beliefs).

Again you don't have to accept this. Just deal with it. It doesn't make us heathens.

but its a lie. the vatican even says they're different.

Of course they do, all churches claim they're different from others. Otherwise we'd all be in the same exact church. Despite our differences though we are still Christian and accept the core beliefs of chrisitanity. See the Nicene Creed. However I'm sure the Vatican would try to distance itself from certain evangelical churches. The pope would, and I would, obviously see that as heresy.

yes we have different beliefs. the vatican says mary is co-redeemer with christ. i disagree. the vatican say the pope is infallible. i disagree. the vatican says to pray to mary and angles and dead prophets. i disagree.

We should be able to live with those differences.