half life = half a game.

[shadowprophet]

You are playing all FPS you compare on a high end PC yeah?
FPS belong on a PC with a mouse n KB, playing them on a console with a joypad is just wrong.

Each to their own man, personally I never saw what people like so much about halo (any of them). It was a really average shooter, on a console, that didn't really bring anything new at all.
Even when it came to the PC I still didn't get all the hype.

Quake 1 (with +mlook, still remember playing online with the KB before someone told me to try the mouse with that cmnd) will probably always be my favourite FPS just because that was when I first really got into PC games when I was 13 or something. Q95 then Quakeworld, rocket jumps, users 'trying to put the pin back in' or 'becoming bored with life'. Good times.

More recently, i really liked prey, still play BF2 a bit.


Dont forget Hovertank 3d (ID) and other similar games of that time. Wolfenstein popularised the genre, but it was an evolution of an existing idea not the first ever 'FPS'.

I wouldn't call HL2 or any modern FPS a clone of wolfenstein, just the continuing evolution of the genre.

Like many people, My first video game experience was with a gamepad. I was never able to play even pc shooters with the mouse and keyboard, it just felt wrong for me to play a heavy action type game like a shooter on anything other then a controller, I was always using a pc gamepad controller even in the early days of shooting. I mean controlling movment with the right hand on the arrow keys and aiming shooting with the mouse thats completely backwards to a gamepad. I could never get used to it

Rts games like Aoe or the original warcrafts, those felt natural on the old kayboard/mouse. But I only played one shooter on the kb/mouse combo that was duke 3d and only once. No way man, not for me

[bah]

Hrms, so you find it easier to move around in windows quickly with an analogue stick rather than a mouse?

Personally I find if u set the sticks sensitivity high then I can move around as fast as a mouse, but then cant stop in time and getting the cursor to the icon quickly becomes difficult, If i set the sensitivity low then I can easily stop on the icon but moving around the screen is really slow.

Where as with a mouse, the cursor moves directly proportional to how I move my hand, I can flick it fast to get from one side of the screen to the other then easily slow down and get fine aim when close.

I'm sure that's why a mouse is the standard input device for a GUI.

My point being: what is the difference between moving a cursor across a screen and clicking an icon efficiently and doing a 180 degree turn, moving a crosshair to an enemy really fast, then slowing slightly to get a nice head shot?

No matter how much you practice on a joypad, putting in the same amount of time learning to use the mouse will always give better results. It's why console games almost always either have a lock-on method or some kind of aim assistance but PC games don't.


Its obviously a lot more comfortable to use a joypad when sitting back on a couch, which Is why I say FPS belong on a PC, not a PC or console with a mouse/KB.


I have some firm views on this topic, despite the complete uselessness of holding them. Call it my religion :P

EDIT:
I grew up with a BBC model B so it was all KB or a homemade digital joystick me and my dad made. Then a 2600, Master system, megadrive and finally a PC. Mouse look wasn't even default in quake 1 (moving the mouse made you move not look I think). It's just I got sick of getting owned by ppl who were no better than me just because they could both turn faster and aim more accurately.

Your obviously completely entitled to like what you like, but once you get me ranting about something I believe in I wont stop till I'm done.

[shadowprophet]

Hrms, so you find it easier to move around in windows quickly with an analogue stick rather than a mouse?

Personally I find if u set the sticks sensitivity high then I can move around as fast as a mouse, but then cant stop in time and getting the cursor to the icon quickly becomes difficult, If i set the sensitivity low then I can easily stop on the icon but moving around the screen is really slow.

Where as with a mouse, the cursor moves directly proportional to how I move my hand, I can flick it fast to get from one side of the screen to the other then easily slow down and get fine aim when close.

I'm sure that's why a mouse is the standard input device for a GUI.

My point being: what is the difference between moving a cursor across a screen and clicking an icon efficiently and doing a 180 degree turn, moving a crosshair to an enemy really fast, then slowing slightly to get a nice head shot?

No matter how much you practice on a joypad, putting in the same amount of time learning to use the mouse will always give better results. It's why console games almost always either have a lock-on method or some kind of aim assistance but PC games don't.


Its obviously a lot more comfortable to use a joypad when sitting back on a couch, which Is why I say FPS belong on a PC, not a PC or console with a mouse/KB.


I have some firm views on this topic, despite the complete uselessness of holding them. Call it my religion :P

You make a good point but not an entirely valid one about the accuracy of mouse v.s analog stick. imagine moving your whole arm in motion compared to just moving a thumb. I mean. there are two sides to every story. And yeah. I feel for games at least analog sticks while maybe not as dead on at aiming as a mouse or as quick I will give you that point. but a game pad lends to a feel more familiar to the gamer, is less taxing on the wrist and arm and soulder for that matter. imagine playing a shooter for hours on a mouse. Then imagine it for hours on a controller which is less likely to to cause carpal tunnel.
I can see your point that both have their advantages and disadvantages. but allow a controller player to play a keyboard/ mouse player in any shooter. nine times out of ten. the controller guy is doing the owning. *nods

[bah]

I've played plenty of FPS for hours straight, the only thing that gets sore is my left little finger from using shift and ctrl. The mouse/Kb are supported and your hands rest on them.

A Mouse player vs a KB player, both on PC, both with no aim assistance, the same hit boxes etc?
If each player has used their respective control for the same amount of time and are roughly equally good at the game, the mouse player will own. Just as the person using a joypad in windows would be slower to do the same set of say 10-20 actions manipulating icons and drop down menus.

I cannot see how a joypad player can win 9 out of 10 unless the game gives mouse users a handicap to make up for the superior look/aim.

[shadowprophet]

I've played plenty of FPS for hours straight, the only thing that gets sore is my left little finger from using shift and ctrl. The mouse/Kb are supported and your hands rest on them.

A Mouse player vs a KB player, both on PC, both with no aim assistance, the same hit boxes etc?
If each player has used their respective control for the same amount of time and are roughly equally good at the game, the mouse player will own. Just as the person using a joypad in windows would be slower to do the same set of say 10-20 actions manipulating icons and drop down menus.

I cannot see how a joypad player can win 9 out of 10 unless the game gives mouse users a handicap to make up for the superior look/aim.

It's been my experience that games are simply more accurately and smoothly controlled on a gamepad then a mouse and keyboard combo. And from my observations it seems to be that way for most console gamers that migrate to pc games. I still back my point about gamepad v.s keyboard/mouse though. and id be willing to proove it on any pc game you choose. still ultimately the resulting matches would proove little win or lose for either of us. as a lot of the deciding factor for said game would come down to personal skill. I would bet through. Any console gamer worth his salt, would simply preform better in any pc shooter given a game pad. tis all im saying *nods

[bah]

More accurately and smoothly? A FPS with a joypad is just like I way saying with an icon and a mouse pointer controlled by an analogue stick. You stop short, go too far etc and end up spraying bullets somewhere at or near the enemy, how is that more smooth than the fluid action of using a mouse to move to a point perfectly?
In windows neither the icon nor your field of view is moving and it doesnt matter where you click on the icon, so in a game its even more important.

Modern games can have advanced hit detection where you can shoot their hand to drop a gun etc, fine aim counts.
CS with a mouse/kb vs a joypad, the joypad player is dead.


A console player would perform better with it because that's what he's used to, the pc gamer would perform better on a PC for the same reason.

My point is that with a completely equal playing field (everything in game and to do with player skill the same and just how you move the crosshair differing), the method that's better at moving to a point and clicking will win.

All the auto-aiming/simplified hit box stuff is there in console FPSs because you cannot aim as accurately and quickly (and making a game that wants you to do so will be really irritating), so with 2 people of equal skill and equally acquainted with their controls device, how could the one that has the ability to turn quicker and aim more accurately not win?

Your a good bloke shadow, but I dont think we will ever agree on this.

[shadowprophet]

More accurately and smoothly? A FPS with a joypad is just like I way saying with an icon and a mouse pointer controlled by an analogue stick. You stop short, go too far etc and end up spraying bullets somewhere at or near the enemy, how is that more smooth than the fluid action of using a mouse to move to a point perfectly?
In windows neither the icon nor your field of view is moving and it doesnt matter where you click on the icon, so in a game its even more important.

Modern games can have advanced hit detection where you can shoot their hand to drop a gun etc, fine aim counts.
CS with a mouse/kb vs a joypad, the joypad player is dead.


A console player would perform better with it because that's what he's used to, the pc gamer would perform better on a PC for the same reason.

My point is that with a completely equal playing field (everything in game and to do with player skill the same and just how you move the crosshair differing), the method that's better at moving to a point and clicking will win.

All the auto-aiming/simplified hit box stuff is there in console FPSs because you cannot aim as accurately and quickly (and making a game that wants you to do so will be really irritating), so with 2 people of equal skill and equally acquainted with their controls device, how could the one that has the ability to turn quicker and aim more accurately not win?

Your a good bloke shadow, but I dont think we will ever agree on this.

lol Yeah I love a debate. ANd while your on to something with the hit boxes. I recall something of a stir that was made about the console version of doom 3 and those hit boxes. It's never dawned upon me that it had to do with the controll scheme, as at the time I thought it had to do with system limitations.

I wasnt awear that all console shooting games used those hit box methods. You may be right. which could also lend to my beliefe that shooters are just plain eaiser on consoles still. I just like the feel of a controller better then a mouse and kb. To me. It always seemed like I was still at work working even while playing a game on the pc.

A little known secret about me. I've worked with pc's for over a decade and to be honest the machines have became a harsh feeling reminder of work. and I dont look to them for play. its kind of a personal preference for me. Still you have made some good points about the accuracy of the mouse, you've also impressed me that you stuck through the entire debate without giving up., as so many people tend to do,, So I will humbly give you this one. As a token of appreciation.
I submit and give you the win :thumbup:



I do so love a great debate

[bah]

Shadow 1,999,999: Bah 1.

I'll take my small victory while I can

[shadowprophet]

Shadow 1,999,999: Bah 1.

I'll take my small victory while I can

*nods. I wonder if console shooters would be extra easy with a mouse

I'd love to go online with halo 3 and just own

[bah]

I have a mouse/KB adaptor for my XBOX, the problem is the games are only coded to receive say 3 or so variations of each axis of an analogue (no joysticks these days are analogue, just many digital steps. Most games only use a cpl).

It adapts it (I guess) by translating different 'ranges' of mouse speed into one of the speed 'steps' its expecting from the joypad.

So the speed of movement of the on screen crosshair isn't really directly proportional to your hand movements, which makes it feel weird/not right.
Plus you add the hassle of a mouse/kb while trying to sit down (rather than sit up at a PC) and its not worth it.

I don't know about 360/PS3 (wasn't one of them supposed to have native mouse support for all games?), if they allow people using either to play each other without any handicapping there could be issues.

I remember reading something about it, and some comments about how they would go about balancing it for everyone so its fun for all.
When everyone is using one or the other there's no problems, when you mix them I don't know how they deal with it.

Joypads are certainly better for driving games, and most 3rd person games that dont require fine aiming or have auto aim (scarface is a great example of doing auto-aiming well, though it works much better for singleplayer than multiplayer as it takes the skill out of aiming) work really well too.
I've played farcry/black and some others on xbox and I can get used to it well enough to play them on higher difficulty, but FPS will always be a PC genre for me