The Proof for Christ's Claims

[ICE]

ok so ive noticed that some people have very little knowledge of actual Christianity. in this post i hope to explain some of the beliefs and hopefully answer some questions. i will cover the life death and resurrection of jesus in this post.

the first question that comes to mind is did jesus even claim to be deity?

during christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him point blank, "tell us if you are the christ, the son of god." and he said,

# "I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
# "Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
# "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)

ok moving on to the next question as that one seems pretty well answered.

many non believers may speculate that perhaps jesus wasnt actually dead but was unconscious only to awaken later to astound the 515 people he appeared to later. to disprove this belief i will explain to you in detail the flogging jesus took for you.

first he was beating severely with blunt objects and whips. the worst of which was the cat of nine tails. it was a whip with 9 strands of leather with jagged fish bones, pieces of glass and other things you wouldnt want to be hit with woven into each of the 9 ends. this initial beating was so severe that in a typical flogging of this nature it was common for the subjects tendons, muscles and internal organs to be exposed. such was the case with jesus as he was said to be indistinguishable from an animal.

next he was forced to carry his cross on the journey to the top of a hill just to be nailed to it. he was so weak from his injuries he couldnt complete this journey alone.

after he topped the hill he was nailed to the cross through the wrist and ankle not hand and feet as is often taught. after he hung there for hours his heart began to beat erratically as he lost the energy to push himself up to inhale. the cause of death was asphyxiation, something very hard to fake.

any doubt that he wasnt in fact dead is only in ignorance as even if he did by some miracle suvive he could have never gotten out of the borrowed tomb he was in as there was a boulder in the doorway.

there is something quite amazing in the manner of execution. it was predicted in the old testament that the messiah would be pierced in his hands and feet and his joints would be out of socket. the relevance is that this was predicted hundreds of years before crucifixion or any similar manner of execution was even invented!!

next many people may say that the body was simply stolen from the tomb. if his body was stolen who are the suspects?
the followers of jesus.

if the followers of jesus had stolen the body to fake his resurrection it seems odd that they later were tortured and KILLED for something that they knew was just a lie. would you willingly die for a something you knew to be a lie?

i find it interesting who found the empty tomb. TWO WOMEN!! in those times a women couldnt even be a witness in court!!! if this was all a lie then why would they say that women found the empty tomb if women WERE SIMPLY NOT CREDIBLE WITNESSES!?!?! the wouldnt.

next after the empty tomb was found jesus appeared to 515 people. these people were in groups of a few sometimes and sometimes they were all alone. he sat and ate and drank with them and even offered an non believer to put his finger in the nail holes. he appeared to his disciples but also to saul of taursus and his brother james who did not believe his brothers claim to deity. saul was a feared man among christians and persecuted them more than you can imagine but after he saw the resurrected jesus he changed his tune and became paul.

for those of you that think that he was just a great man and his legend built up to deity over time
it has been documented that it takes two generations to create a legend so its very interesting that the "legend" of jesus's resurrection took only a few weeks to be in full swing.

ok so ive shown that he claimed deity, he was killed, and 515 people within 40 days of his tomb being found empty would claim that they saw him in person AFTER he was crucified.

i sincerely hope you read this and and please ask any questions because you will be taken seriously and your question will be answered as best i can answer it.

[ExcruciationX]

Interesting acticle, IceMan...

I actually am baptized Christian, and know a lot about it. But I decided to renounce my "faith" for my own reasons.

So, anyway, good article! :)

[gdf]

hmm, not sure what point you are trying to prove. remember, all this "happened" 2000 years ago, it is unlikely that events weren't either created or changed over time.

[ICE]

ok so im not trying to prove any points. i am simply trying to inform people so that they can make there own decisions.

as for this just being folklore built up over time i will simply bring up this one fact. the bible is widely known as a reliable source of info on actual events in its time. until i came here i NEVER heard anyone adamantly say the bible was out and out wrong even though atheist scholars admit its historically accurate. they claim that the events may be exaggerated but as far as the historical events no one deserving respect as a scholar denounces it.

only days after the empty tomb was found a creed was spoken by john (i think) that LITERALLY said he died he rose and 515 of us saw him after he died walking around. in a recent study of normal life in bible times it was shown that a legend takes more than 2 generations to grow up NOT a week or so.

anyone who thinks that they can write off the bible because its old needs to seriously rethink his stance. i beg you please just research what your saying. the only translation errors were things like accent marks being left out and things like that.

its impossible to translate jesus was a nice guy into jesus rose from the dead.

[iniquitous_beast]

Remember, however, that the gospels were written decades after Jesus died. During that time, many of the original witnesses to the event died out. Christianity had grown as a religion during that time, and there were many different stories of Jesus in circulation. In reality, almost nobody had a clear recollection of what happened. Check out the Gospel of Judas for one such unique take. Only at the council of Nicea did they finally choose four books, (Matthew, Mark,Luke, and John) and mostly because they had some semblance to each other.

Religious leaders have always sought to control the masses. Jesus' preachings taught the masses that religion could be personal (in one book not in the bible, he even preached that God was a part of each of us. To find God, we needed only to look within ourselves). For his stance against organized religion, the religious leader of his time wanted him dead. Thus, the accusations of blasphemy (which he was technically guilty of, claims of godhood or not).

Iceman - your quotes from Matt, Mark, and Luke each hold one critical flaw. None of those three writers were actually present at the trial. The disciples scattered like sheep when the Romans hauled Jesus away at the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus' trial was swift, and none of the Disciples wanted to get caught up in that. the witnesses of the trial were the religious leaders, whom I have already established wanted Jesus to die. Whatever was said during the trial or during jesus questioning by Pilate was never heard by the writers of the Gospels.

As for the Bible having ties to actual historical events, OF COURSE IT DOES!!! The ancient Jews often recorded important historical events in their scriptures, since they believed that God had a hand in them. The Iliad by Homer detailed the Trojan War and the impact that the gods had on it. For a long time, scholars regarded it as an act of fiction, until one archaeologist used the info from the story to unearth the actual ancient city of Troy. Now, just because The Iliad was right about that, should we also believe that Achilles was also immortal or that the Greek gods slew the one man in Troy who was suspicious of the wooden horse? That's the thing about ancient texts, they often were based on historical events. You need to be wary though, archeology can prove that places and people existed, but it can rarely verify the exact details of their lives.

I've ranted long enough. If you haven't guessed, I was also baptized a Christian before giving up my faith in the face of the iffy origins of our moder Christianity.

[bullhead]

Why is it that you christians always feel you have to convince others that your god exists? Belive in your god all you like, but please just stop trying to convince others of it. Your incessant ramblings defending your religion is more harmful than the atheists non-belief in it.

You seem to spend more time defending your religion than we do criticising it. If you are so contented with your faith, then be quiet and appear to be as such.

Nietzsche said it well in this short aphorism; "What distinguishes us [scientists] from the pious and the believers is not the quality but the quantity of belief and piety; we are contented with less. But if the former should challenge us: then be contented and appear to be contented! - then we might easily reply: 'We are, indeed, not among the least contented. You, however, if your belief makes you blessed then appear to be blessed! Your faces have always been more injurious to your belief than our objections have! If these glad tidings of your Bible were written on your faces, you would not need to insist so obstinately on the authority of that book... As things are, however, all your apologies for Christianity have their roots in your lack of Christianity; with your defence plea you inscribe your own bill of indictment."

bull, x.

[ExcruciationX]

Your right, Bullhead, but I don't think he means to convince others he's right. Trust me, I've been around stuck-up assholes that are trying to be "the best" and be a member of "the coolest religion" until I can defend my point. :p

There was this one time in the chat room at my school (fairly recent) that I was joking everybody should discuss aliens again, since I knew they hate it (big suprise).

There was this one guy that said "You believe in aliens? I do too." and I was like "Are you serious?" and he says "Yes". So we start talking about it, and this girl shows up and says "You guys are stupid".

Needless to say, we totally uber pwned her and proved our point, while she could only sorta prove one. She was pathetic (she though the earth was only 2,000 years old, even though it's been proven otherwise, and that the universe is basically our solar system, LOL).

Remember when I got suspended for saying that all religions are equal? Well, I got an award (sort of like a principal's award thingy) for "Enriching the minds of our students". They said the guy was out-of-line (the one that gave me the suspension). :)

[gunntims0103]

the bible has been so screwded with, its hard to tell what really happened. i try not to take it literally word for word. I do however believe jesus existed.

What i find quite astonishing, is that musslims take there holy book, the Quran word for word as if there God wrote it.

[mexicansnake]

Nice points ice_man, the people should read this to learn about religions. Also I know alot about this but I can hardly translate it to english :p.

[ICE]

ok if you are here to poke fun and say the bible is inaccurate leave. if you are here to learn and ask questions please stay and ask away. my only intention is to educate and yet i get nothing but people telling me that the bible isnt credible.

the bible was translated 3 times in most cases ok? 3. not 456 to the point that its meaningless. 3. hebrew to greek to english.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE JESUS WAS A NICE GUY AND TRANSLATE IT TO JESUS WAS GOD AND HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD IN 3 TRANSLATIONS!!

as for the books being written years after the fact i will point AGAIN to one thing. IT TAKES MORE THE 120 YEARS TO BUILD LEGEND NOT THE 40 YEARS IN BETWEEN THE EVENTS AND WHEN THEY WERE WRITTEN ABOUT. TWO GENERATIONS IS WIDELY EXCEPTED AS THE LENGTH OF TIME NEEDED TO MAKE LEGEND!!! 40 YEARS CANT MAKE HE WAS NICE INTO HE WAS GOD EITHER!

so if you are here to learn and ask questions please do but dont try to make me look stupid with invalid points.

EDIT: by the way i never quoted matt mark or luke when i was talking about the trial.... so guy who said i was wrong when i did.. um i didnt..

[Jeremysr]

Why is it that you christians always feel you have to convince others that your god exists?

I think it is because Jesus told us to spread the news about him. And we're trying to save you.

theICE_MAN, I don't think anyone was flaming...

[AvengedSevenfold Fan]

We believe that if you don't accept Christ, you will burn in Hell. We do it because we care.

[ICE]

ah the christians have arrived!!! lol anywho i really dont want you guys to burn in hell so im simply giving you the facts so you can decide for yourself lol.

EDIT: i re-read what everyone said and they werent flaming so i edited my post earlier asking them not to. i just get a bit worked up with this stuff :D

[ExcruciationX]

Yeah, I'm not here to flame anybody. I'm on IceMan's side here. All he did was write a short article about Jesus, with the hope of educating Atheists, even though we know about it (atleast I do).

Guys, forums are here to relate, learn, and become friends with one another and discuss things with people from various backgrounds, cultures, and continents. We should listen to them, instead of blowing them off!

IceMan: I DO think Jesus existed. There are records of his execution from the Ancient Roman Government. Since I'm a freethinker, I'll accept anything if there is enough evidence.

[bullhead]

Refer to my previous point again; why is it that you still feel you need to defend your religion? If you are confident in its legitimacy, then stop speaking of it. I have heard the stories over and over, and im content with my rejection of these stories of how one should live, please can you be quiet and be content with your own beliefs.
We don't try and force the foundations of atheism upon yourselves, so why can you not satisfy yourselves with your own beliefs and be content in that (dead end)

bull, x.

[ICE]

Refer to my previous point again; why is it that you still feel you need to defend your religion? If you are confident in its legitimacy, then stop speaking of it. I have heard the stories over and over, and im content with my rejection of these stories of how one should live, please can you be quiet and be content with your own beliefs.
We don't try and force the foundations of atheism upon yourselves, so why can you not satisfy yourselves with your own beliefs and be content in that (dead end)

bull, x.

you are clearly not reading my posts. i am simply stating the facts.

if i am confident in my beliefs then dont speak of it!?!?! are you insane?? the whole point of christianity is to speak of it!!!

you just dont get it do you? if i were to believe in jesus's teachings and then just shut up about it do you realize what kind of person id be? id be someone who WANTS others to go to hell!!!

i didnt start this thread to defend anything its just here to teach!!! i am not forcing anything as you keep saying i am!!!

NO ONE IS MAKING YOU READ THIS.

EDIT: Ex-- it is widely excepted that jesus was indeed alive and was crucified as daniel predicted he would be(even crucifixion wasnt invented for another 200 years..)so it comes down to if he truly rose after 3 days.

if anyone can find me a WELL RESPECTED scholar who thinks jesus was fictional tell me lol.

[iniquitous_beast]

EDIT: by the way i never quoted matt mark or luke when i was talking about the trial.... so guy who said i was wrong when i did.. um i didnt..

Check your very first post. There, you indeed quote the books of Matt, Mark and Luke when they were detailing the trial of Jesus.

You keep mentioning the number of years that it takes for a fact to be warped into legend. You gave the number as roughly 140 years. I'd like to remind you that the New Testament, particularly the gospels, was not casually formed by the slow warping of a story. The gospels were abundant in the years after Jesus' death. People who had been following Jesus and hearing his sermons began trying to pass his teachings on to other people. However, the spread was uncontrolled, and hundreds of mis-interpretations arose. These false understandings often conflicted with each other. Hundreds of people had heard him speak, and many tried to put their interpretations into writing. This includes Christ's disciples who also disagreed over Christ's teachings.

The personal problem I have with Christianity is that even today, there are people who barely understand it but feel like they have to tell everyone else about it. There is no system by which the church decides if a member is qualified to tell others about Christ. Thus, here in America especially, we have many denominations of Christianity, some of which actively denounce each other as a "trickery of the devil, pathway to hell, etc.). Ideas spread like plagues without anyone stepping in to clarify peoples' misunderstandings. I have my qualms with Catholics, but at least they have that right - the Pope's word on a conflicted issue is final.

Since this is a video game forum after all, I will part with this thought: Jack Thompson claims to be a Christian, yet most Christians on this forum denounce him. Undoubtedly, he has also approached people and tried to convert them to Christ. Some of those people might have considered themselves Christians before meeting him, but they were not Christians in his eyes. This happens too frequently withing Christianity, so it is not a stretch. However, consider this: If Jack Thompson has converted others to Christianity, what messed-up beliefs are running unchecked in their minds now?

Thus ends my counter-sermon for tonight. Go now, my children, and be wary, for there is nothing in life that is not tainted by fallacy. Walk your paths with a deliberate foot, and view your surroundings with a discerning eye.

[bullhead]

Im sorry for my previous drunken input. Im going to wash my nails.

bull, x.

[mcvader]

I thought you were going to show us "The Proof for Christ's Claims", instead all we get is a few Bible quote's and nonsence about how long it takes to create a legend.

Jesus was an Alien - FACT, lol.

[ExcruciationX]

EDIT: Ex-- it is widely excepted that jesus was indeed alive and was crucified as daniel predicted he would be(even crucifixion wasnt invented for another 200 years..)so it comes down to if he truly rose after 3 days.
I believe that he walked the earth. But WHAT was he? That's my main question.

[SSaxdude]

Why believe in the bible and not the Torah or Quran? Why believe in the Judeo-Christian God and not Greek gods such as Zeus?

It's all because of the way you were raised.

[ICE]

ok i will say it once more because two or you arent readin it i guess. if you are here to politely ask questions and LEARN then do so. if your are here to tell me i only believe because its how i was raised or because jesus was an alien i would like for you to just simply keep these thoughts to yourself.

i apologize for saying i didnt quote matt mark etc in reference to his trial.. it was late and i was tired lol.

you say that the gospels were abundant right after his death but word-of-mouth destroyed their meaning. does that mean that those gospels are gone to us as well? no. they bloody found them in caves remember lol. just because 2000 years ago people may have gotten carried away doesnt mean im going to do the same..

as for unqualified people leading churches i agree its not right. the good part is you dont have to be a part of that church. for the last several years me and a few others have been desperately searching for a church thats real and truly christian. we have not it found it because the truth is the TRUE christian church is barely hanging on..

everyday you hear more about "christian" groups doing something hypocritical. it is to the point where everyone hates "christians" and by proxy me as well. i ask that you take into consideration that perhaps these individuals you see on tv arent christians..

the beliefs you here "we" have on tv is just as distorted as the personal perception of us. the concept of "just love each other and you in" or "whats right for may not be right for me but we're both right" goes totally against TRUE christianity. there is ONE truth ONE way and thats it. well at least thats what i believe.

i leave you with this. dont tell me how stupid christianity is based on your perception of it. find out the TRUE essence of christianity.

iniquitous_beast, you seem to know quite a bit but check your 3rd paragraph of your last post. there IS a system for determining who can lead a church its just not followed by the mainstream "christians"

however when you say that the many denominations bickering back and forth with no mediator you are correct. this time i mean it..

i will leave you with this: there is ONE true denomination of christianity. it IS NOT mainstream and most havent heard its name... in fact i might not have either.. but its out there and my goal is to find it. the church cannot be destroyed but it CAN be hidden by thousands of pseudo christian churches.

[iniquitous_beast]

I finally see our main point of contention. You believe that the Truth exists, and that it can be found. I believe that it is forever lost and choose to live contentedly without it.

You have strong beliefs. I do not. Thus, I can't really continue pressing my point. Still, it has been fun discussing this with you. You meant this thread to be for those who wanted to hear about Christ, so I won't interfere any further. See ya around!

[ICE]

no its good when people try to debate with me in an adult manner as you have. i think that throughout both of us made our points clear and neither of us came out sounding stupid. if anything calm debates like this do nothing but give credibility to both sides.

the truth and the real christian church is out there. the gates of hell can not prevail against it and i will continue in my search the real believers and what we were meant to do and believe, not what we are taught to do now.

the true church is not a building, it consists of the REAL believers out there who's only true desire is to find the truth. there's not many of use left but i can attest to you that we're not gone.

[Big Lou]

the only translation errors were things like accent marks being left out and things like that.
It sounds like YOU are the one who needs to do the research. Many words were horribly messed up when translated to modern languages. Things like "Red Sea" are actually correctly translated to "Reed Sea" meaning a completely different location than what most Bibles say today. How is this significant? Using geographic knowledge and science, it is known that a volcano erupted near the "actual" sea which most likely caused every single "plague" and the eventual parting of the sea (a tidal wave). There are many many errors similar to this one.

I'm an Atheist. I don't believe in God. Why do you generalize all Atheists in a way that makes us look like rambling bafoons. Watch a Richard Dawson video and truly see who doesn't do their research.

[ICE]

what i meant was for the most part it was simple errors. as i said before its very difficult to translate jesus was nice to jesus rose from the dead and was literally god.

i already know about a volcano causing the the 10 plagues. thanks for bringing it up :D. so you think that the jews were trying to get out of egypt and a volcano erupted by coincidence.. even though moses told them what would happen next in order? eh whatever floats your boat.

even though it was simply a geographic event its still a miracle. it was timed perfectly to free the jews.. i mean come on is that not cool?

just because i say god exists that doesnt mean i dont think science is real too.

god made the scientific laws that rule our world. its that simple. he doesnt do things through random flashy events. its all done in logical ways that dont break the laws he put in place.

EDIT: by the way im not writing off the errors. i know that they're there but i also know that they dont seem to destroy the basic points of the bible. my brother-in-law is in the process of learning hebrew so he can get around those errors.

NEXT :D j/k

EDIT x2: ok so when did i generalize all atheists as "babbling bafoons"? i dont think i did. because i didnt.

why is it that your trying to make me look stupid? do you have some sort of unfounded dislike for me? i have said nothing but the facts and yet time and time again i am attacked. i just dont understand why.

if your going to try and make me look stupid at least say something original. you know, something i havent already heard.

[ExcruciationX]

Um, Big Lou, isn't it "Richard Dawkins"? I'm Atheist too. :)

IceMan, you did kind of class all athiests as not knowing about Christianity, yet most do.

Also, who doesn't want to know "the truth"?

[ICE]

i want to make something clearer here. when i said that most atheists had a very basic knowledge of christianity that was a statement that was very true to my previous experiences. if you are and atheist who knows a lot on the topic i dont mean to offend you.

i apologize to anyone who took that the wrong way.

[ExcruciationX]

Hey, it's alright, man (I think you're talking to me too). :)

But, I don't get why you're trying to save everybody from Hell. Why do you care? It's impossible.

Why don't you just create a group of "true christian" people that you know. It might get big some day. ;)

[ICE]

Hey, it's alright, man (I think you're talking to me too). :)

But, I don't get why you're trying to save everybody from Hell. Why do you care? It's impossible .

lol where to begin.. knowledge is a very dangerous thing. with it there is responsibility. if what i know to be true is indeed true then to simply keep my mouth shut is ignoring the duty that comes with knowledge.

i realize i cannot help everyone find the truth but if i help one single person find their way i have not failed. an impossible task? maybe. but that will not stop me from carrying out my duty.

he suffered an unimaginable torture for me and also you. is it too much to ask that i simply tell people?


Why don't you just create a group of "true christian" people that you know. It might get big some day.

hmm yes that would be very nice for the six of us..

[ExcruciationX]

Well, I don't understand it. Why tell people something they've heard six hundred billion times and still won't convert? It's a waste of time.

[ICE]

well thats just it. someone here might not have heard it. what if i were to assume that everyone had heard and just kept my mouth shut but one person hadnt?

people may disagree with me and thats fine. i realize that by doing the things i do i am putting myself out there where everyone gets to try and poke fun but at do it for a reason.

none of you know me or what my life entails but i will tell you this. the idea of giving up religion as a whole and just saying "i dont care" is so enticing. every day i wake up and think about how easy it would be to just let go but i simply cant. none of you know me but i assure you, if you did, what i am doing would be taken a lot more seriously. if you only knew how easy it would be for me to just not care about anyone but me the fact that im reaching out to those who hunger for knowledge would not be taken so lightly.

[ExcruciationX]

Well, giving it up isn't easy because of your ego. You want to believe it, because you've heard it all your life, and you couldn't imagine your life without it.

I got past it, mostly because of my UFO sighting, and studying of secular ideas that I never heard of when I was at a private Christian school.

[ICE]

i didnt have it all my life. you dont know me. dont tell me about my life.

[ExcruciationX]

IceMan: I was talking about myself.

Sorry I didn't clarify. :o

[ICE]

i realize i said i was taking a break from dcemu but i cant. its the easiest most accessible manner of witnessing i have and i cant stop just because some people in here get their jollies pushing my buttons.

i have one thing to say PREPARE TO BE REBUKED! because i now have back-up!! hahahahaha just you wait...

[tactful mcbee]

for everybody thats mad and confused about iceman's reasoning in his claim, there is more to it than just he is concern about your souls. G-d requires us to proclaim the gospel of the messiah, or your (anyone who doesn't accept jesus) blood will be on our heads, meaning G-d will ask us why we allowed nonbelievers to die without hearing the gospel. thus we have a responsibility to give others the opportunity to repent of their sins so you may enjoy the grace of G-d. G-d wants everyone to recieve Jesus, who is a payment for our sins, in order to have fellowship with the true G-d who loves us dearly.

i used to be an agnostic, but when i weighed the evidence, it took more faith to stay an atheist than to become a christian.

[ExcruciationX]

I'm completely neutral. I'll see how this plays out, IceMan. ;)

[ICE]

ahh my backup has arrived... and for some reason he cant type god.. anyway i bet any question i cannot answer mcbee can lol.

[tactful mcbee]

It sounds like YOU are the one who needs to do the research. Many words were horribly messed up when translated to modern languages. Things like "Red Sea" are actually correctly translated to "Reed Sea" meaning a completely different location than what most Bibles say today. How is this significant? Using geographic knowledge and science, it is known that a volcano erupted near the "actual" sea which most likely caused every single "plague" and the eventual parting of the sea (a tidal wave). There are many many errors similar to this one.

I'm an Atheist. I don't believe in God. Why do you generalize all Atheists in a way that makes us look like rambling bafoons. Watch a Richard Dawson video and truly see who doesn't do their research.

when it comes to translation errors, you are right in a sense. the word is euwph in hebrew which does mean red. but since isreal lost its land it lost the right to name its neighboring sea, which was renamed the red sea. translators changed this since the "reed" sea doesn't exists by that name. translators changed it in order for its readers to understand what landmark the bible was talking about.

the fact that a tidal wave caused the red sea to be dry and walk on is laughable. isreal at the time consisted of about 300,000 people. that is some tidal wave. plus egypts army would have noticed the receding waters and wouldn't have charged straight in. by the way, the history channel is a little biased towards G-d.

[ExcruciationX]

My only question for you.

Why can't you say "GOD"? It's kind of weird.

[tactful mcbee]

God's name is treated with unusual care in Jewish tradition. The divine name, YHWH (spelled with the Hebrew letters yud, hey, vav, hey) is never pronounced. Traditionally, Jews read the word "Adonai" (often translated as "the Lord") whenever reading God's holiest name in Torah or in prayer. However, "Adonai" is not God's name.

also just wondered if anyone would notice

[Shadowblind]

the bible has been so screwded with, its hard to tell what really happened. i try not to take it literally word for word. I do however believe jesus existed.

Thats King James for you.

The only Bible I found that hasn't been rediculously altered is New World Translation. 'Found out NOTHING in it has a different meaning then the original Hebrew-Greek scriptures.(Except for the language, but that goes without saying.) They even mention Gods name the 7000 times it was taken out and replaced with "Lord" in King James.

YHWH translated as best as possible appears in English as Jehovah.

[tactful mcbee]

Thats King James for you.

The only Bible I found that hasn't been rediculously altered is New World Translation. 'Found out NOTHING in it has a different meaning then the original Hebrew-Greek scriptures.(Except for the language, but that goes without saying.) They even mention Gods name the 7000 times it was taken out and replaced with "Lord" in King James.

YHWH translated as best as possible appears in English as Jehovah.

actually the jews themselves use the word adonai. the new world translation is a rip off of the niv except they substitute jehovah for lord. besides there is no "j" sound in hebrew a yehovah is the best you might do

[ExcruciationX]

Tactful Mcbee, you should join the "True Christian Movement" suggested by Shane.

[tactful mcbee]

i don't know if thats a complement or sarcasm lol

[ExcruciationX]

No, I'm not joking.

He's trying to create the true Christian movement, and I think he can do it.

[tactful mcbee]

do i hear a potential conversion

[ExcruciationX]

Nope. I'm staying Atheist.

I actually think I have an idea as to what a "True Christian Movement" would believe in. Note this is only my opinion...

1. They are quiet and are not trying to enforce they're beliefs on others and they don't make a big deal about some T.V show's different beliefs all the time.

2. They accept gay and transgender people as part of they're church.

Let me think of somemore things the "movement" could support.

[tactful mcbee]

that can not be christian, because the world would accept christians if they were quiet. the church wasn't killed and hated by the world because they were passive on certain issues, they confronted people of their sins and the people hated them for it.

[ExcruciationX]

Accepting gay and transgender people would be pretty cool, though.

[tactful mcbee]

christians are suppose to accept all people, but not lifestyles that contridict God's law.

[ExcruciationX]

So, you're anti-gay?

I think they should be accepted as equal to anybody else, and be allowed to marry.

Put yourself in a homosexual person's shoes. You're just a little different then the rest of us and your told your possessed by the devil, and all of that other crap. Wouldn't it get old?

[tactful mcbee]

i didn't say i'm anti-gay. the bible is pretty clear on the subject i'm just stating its doctrine. gays are just like me... human. "possessed by devil" what kind of so called "christians" have you been talking too. everyone sins but repentence is the key to salvation

[ExcruciationX]

The assholes at my school...

[ICE]

So, you're anti-gay?

I think they should be accepted as equal to anybody else, and be allowed to marry.

Put yourself in a homosexual person's shoes. You're just a little different then the rest of us and your told your possessed by the devil, and all of that other crap. Wouldn't it get old?

again more misconceptions of what christians believe.... we never said the gays are possessed by the devil. its just a sin.. just like any other sin. repent and your golden.

gays are no less a person than anyone else living a sinful life. call me a gay basher if you want but thats simply how it is. im not sure why it would surprise anyone that an open christian thinks being gay is a sin... i mean come one this is first grade stuff here guys...

EDIT: Ex, anyone who tells you that gays are possessed by Satan is probably not someone you need to listen to and definitely not someone who should represent your definition of a christian.

[tactful mcbee]

i can tell you with confidence, they're not christians who have actually read the bible. i also doubt their salvation greatly the guys at school

[bullhead]

that guy that spoke of first grade; Your knowledge came from man. If someone told you they could break their bones and heal their wounds instantly, would you not want to see them cut themselves?
Why dont you question your beliefs? They come from man. Just like the man who heals himself. Hey look at that, a parable by bullhead, the parable of the blind sheep!

[ExcruciationX]

That's my problem, I don't think it's a sin.

LOL, the people at my school are the type that think the world is like 5,000 years old.

Bullhead, I was the one that made you realize the existence of aliens. Remember? Way back to the EmuForumz days, when Zion had his own forum? It got hacked by "Chakra" twice remember?

[tactful mcbee]

sin by biblical definition is transgression of the law of God, and the law is against that lifestyle. the bible was written over a span of 4000 years written by different people in different situations with no contredictions in its original language. the chances of this is astronomical to the point that only a supernatural divine influence is the only explaination.

the bible has been attacked more than any scripture and still has never been disproven.

leestrobel.com

[ICE]

that guy that spoke of first grade; Your knowledge came from man. If someone told you they could break their bones and heal their wounds instantly, would you not want to see them cut themselves?
Why dont you question your beliefs? They come from man. Just like the man who heals himself. Hey look at that, a parable by bullhead, the parable of the blind sheep!

you still dont get it. our "knowledge" was god inspired. written by god through man.

why dont we question our own beliefs? i didnt know that we hadnt... oh well guess bull know me better than i do...

bull dont just guess that we havent questioned and researched the beliefs we were taught. you have no right to try and point the finger at us for something we didnt do, and even if we had there's no way for you to know for sure.

[tactful mcbee]

hey bull how many times have you actually read the bible?

i have studied most mainstream religions and denominations. even the theory on raelians(aliens) yet i say the bible is the only one that makes since

[ExcruciationX]

Debating it isn't going to get us anywhere.

In the end, we'll still be stubborn headed, we'll still believe the same religion, and we'll still believe we're right. It's a waste.

[ICE]

Debating it isn't going to get us anywhere.

In the end, we'll still be stubborn headed, we'll still believe the same religion, and we'll still believe we're right. It's a waste.

i KNOW im right and thats why i will continue to scream it from the mountain tops as long as i have lungs capable of doing so.

[mexicansnake]

i KNOW im right and thats why i will continue to scream it from the mountain tops as long as i have lungs capable of doing so.

Thats the spirit!:thumbup: .

[kcajblue]

i KNOW im right and thats why i will continue to scream it from the mountain tops as long as i have lungs capable of doing so.you should seriously become a priest or something of the matter.

[ExcruciationX]

How do you know you're right?

Do you have proof of what you believe? Do you know why you believe? Do you think you see God's actions, when in reality you're just seeing coincidental events?

I'm not sure if I'm right, and I would love to be proved wrong. I would love to know some guy sits in the clouds, and after you die, you get to meet him and all the departed for all eternity. Who wouldn't? But, it just seems like a pipe dream to me.

[SSaxdude]

hey bull how many times have you actually read the bible?

i have studied most mainstream religions and denominations. even the theory on raelians(aliens) yet i say the bible is the only one that makes since

Really? I've heard the only surefire way to become an atheist is to read the bible (as said by Penn Jillette.)

Ok enough of off track ranting. I believe that religion only makes sense because it's point is to provide a better understanding of the universe. Knowing that a god created the world frees you from critically thinking about how we got here. Some people believe evolution is impossible or near impossible, and is why they buy into creation/intelligent design.

[ICE]

Really? I've heard the only surefire way to become an atheist is to read the bible (as said by Penn Jillette.)

Ok enough of off track ranting. I believe that religion only makes sense because it's point is to provide a better understanding of the universe. Knowing that a god created the world frees you from critically thinking about how we got here. Some people believe evolution is impossible or near impossible, and is why they buy into creation/intelligent design.

so essentially your saying the religion is for people who dont want to think? honestly man your perception of christians is so incredibly distorted that i shouldnt even dignify that with a reply...

evolution is too hard so we made god? my lord.... seriously are you even trying any more? no one here ever said evolution couldnt be true.. STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS.

Ex, how do i know im right? well this thread is kinda a big part of that. 7 pages of people trying to disprove it and not one person has given one single good counter besides the bible is for people who dont want to think.. honestly man...

i know im right because its obvious. the alternatives are simply stupid. everything is here by chance(i hear not very good ones too)? just because? no reason eh? and im the stupid one? all the matter in the universe compiled into a tiny ball which started to spin and then it exploded? no reason for that either? hmm and yet jesus is harder to believe?

atheism is simply mans attempt to not need god. no god means no responsibility, no recoil for the stuff you do. nothing matters at all so do as you please.

i know im right because honestly i havent heard one reason in all my life that holds ANY water that says im not.

EDIT: ssax, when you make remarks like that all your doing is showing a lack of ability to converse in an adult manner. Ex disagrees with me but he has not said anything blatantly rude or tried to get under my skin. he can converse like an adult. can you? (fyi just joking ssax)

[ExcruciationX]

Well, our ideas aren't stupid. What gets me, is that there is proof of what we believe in. We can explain what we think mathematically, scientifically, and physically and it's there.

But, religion doesn't seem able to be explained down here at our level. It seems like some of the higher up math and physics people are Atheist. They know their stuff. Don't you ask why?

That's my reason for being Atheist, like it or not. :p

IceMan: Yeah, I'm not here to get into fights, or to piss people off.

It's funny. I'm younger then most of you guys, yet I'm the most mature, free-thinking, and thoughtful person here.

[bah]

theICE_MAN: If you have a problem with others views, perhaps you shouldn't be preaching on a GAMING SITE!

Ill keep the rest of my thoughts to myself.

That is all.

[gdf]

i KNOW im right and thats why i will continue to scream it from the mountain tops as long as i have lungs capable of doing so.

there's a LOT more proof against the existence of a god than there is for one. individual accounts vs scientifically proven fact. no contest. to be honest chrisitanity is just a sect of judaism with slightly diffetent beleifs and values. anyway, people usually beleive what they are brought up to beleive, and thankfully for me religion wasn't forced on me, and i was bought up to be able to think for myself, not beleive something fo the hell of it.

[mcvader]

so essentially your saying the religion is for people who dont want to think? honestly man your perception of christians is so incredibly distorted that i shouldnt even dignify that with a reply...

If that was what he was saying I agree with him 100%.


evolution is too hard so we made god? my lord.... seriously are you even trying any more? no one here ever said evolution couldnt be true.. STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS.

No one here said that, but the book you so badly want to believe in makes it quite clear on it's theory of how humans came to be, or do you only believe the parts of the bible that you want to or that can't be disproven yet.


Ex, how do i know im right? well this thread is kinda a big part of that. 7 pages of people trying to disprove it and not one person has given one single good counter besides the bible is for people who dont want to think.. honestly man...

You havn't had a good counter?? well maybe you should make a good point first.


i know im right because its obvious. the alternatives are simply stupid. everything is here by chance(i hear not very good ones too)? just because? no reason eh? and im the stupid one? all the matter in the universe compiled into a tiny ball which started to spin and then it exploded? no reason for that either? hmm and yet jesus is harder to believe?

Let me get this right, you think the theory of the BIG BANG is stupid yet you believe that some dude (with a mental illness no doubt) was the son of god, had magical powers and then came back from the dead??????

Maybe the thought of life being meaningless is so scary to you that you feel the need to believe in fairy tales.


atheism is simply mans attempt to not need god. no god means no responsibility, no recoil for the stuff you do. nothing matters at all so do as you please.

So you're saying the only reason to be a good person is so you don't get punished by god??

Maybe people in the Dark Ages needed that kind of threat hanging over their heads to act right but I'd like to think that humanity has progressed past that point, and if not, we have REAL laws that actually relect TODAYS society to punish the trouble makers.


i know im right because honestly i havent heard one reason in all my life that holds ANY water that says im not.

You can't prove that i'm not Jesus, so by you're logic I must be (sweet, I'm gonna start selling wine).

We (humanity) havn't yet reached the point where we can prove or disprove things like this, we don't have all the answers yet, but we will.

I hope you see the light one day and stop wasting you're life on these stupid myth's I would try to help you find the way......but I don't push my beliefs on others and neither should you.

[gdf]

rep for that when i can mcv!

[tactful mcbee]

here is more uneducated rationalities
General info on the Bible
The Bible consists of 66 books: 39 in the OT and 27 in the new. The Bible took about 1600 years to write. It was written in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) by about 40 authors and is internally consistent throughout.
Reliability of the Bible
The Bible is 98 percent textually pure. Through all the copying of the Biblical manuscripts of the entire Bible, only 1% has any question about it. Nothing in all of the ancient writings of the entire world approaches the accuracy of the biblical documents.
The 1 percent that is in question does not affect doctrine. The areas of interest are called variants and they consist mainly in variations of wording and spelling.
The NT has over 5000 supporting Greek manuscripts existing today with another 20,000 manuscripts in other languages. Some of the manuscript evidence dates to within 100 years of the original writing. There is less than a 1% textual variation in the NT manuscripts.
Some of the supporting manuscripts of the NT are:
John Rylands MS written around 130 A.D., the oldest existing fragment of the gospel of John
Bodmer Papyrus II (150-200 A.D.)
Chester Beatty Papyri (200 A.D.), contains major portions of the NT
Codex Vaticanus (325-350 A.D.), contains nearly all the Bible.
Codex Sinaiticus (350 A.D.), contains almost all the NT and over half of the OT
When were the gospels written?
None of the gospels mention the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. This is significant because Jesus had prophesied its destruction when He said, "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down," (Luke 21:5, see also Matt. 24:1; Mark 13:1). If they were written after the 70AD destruction don't you think they would have included the event?
Matthew: The various dates most widely held as possible writing dates of the Gospel are between A.D. 40 - 140. But Ignatius died around 115 A.D. and he quoted Matthew. Therefore Matthew had to be written before he died. Nevertheless, it is generally believed that Matthew was written before A.D. 70 and as early as A.D. 50.
Mark: Mark (the disciple of Peter received his information from Peter) is said to be the earliest gospel with an authorship of between A.D. 55 to A.D. 70.
Luke: Luke was written before the book of Acts and Acts does not mention "Nero's persecution of the Christians in A.D. 64 or the deaths of James (A.D. 62), Paul (A.D. 64), and Peter (A.D. 65)."8 Therefore, we can conclude that Luke was written before A.D. 62.
John: The John Rylands papyrus fragment 52 of John's gospel dated in the year 125-135 contains portions of John 18, verses 31-33,37-38. This fragment was found in Egypt. It is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's.
An important note is the lack of mention of the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. But this is understandable since John was not focusing on historical events and was most probably written 20 or so years after the destruction of the Temple. John focused on the theological aspect of the person of Christ and listed His miracles and words that affirmed Christ's deity.
Book of Acts
Similarly, the book of Acts which was written after the gospel of Luke by Luke himself. Acts is a history of the Christian church right after Jesus' ascension. Acts also fails to mention the incredibly significant events of 70 A.D. which would have been extremely relevant and prophetically important yet it is not mentioned in Acts. Why? Because it was written pre-70 AD.
Acts does not include the accounts of "Nero's persecution of the Christians in A.D. 64 or the deaths of James (A.D. 62), Paul (A.D. 64), and Peter (A.D. 65),"1 and we have further evidence that it was written very early and not long after Jesus' ascension into heaven.
"At the earliest, Acts cannot have been written prior to the latest firm chronological marker recorded in the book Festus' appointment as procurator (Acts 24:27), which, on the basis of independent sources, appears to have occurred between A.D. 55 and 59."3
"It is increasingly admitted that the Logia [Q] was very early, before 50 A.D., and Mark likewise if Luke wrote the Acts while Paul was still alive. Luke's Gospel comes before the Acts (Acts 1:1). The date of Acts is still in dispute, but the early date (about A.D. 63) is gaining support constantly."4
If what is said of Acts is true, this would mean that Luke was written at least before A.D. 63 and possibly before 55 - 59 since Acts is the second in the series of writings by Luke. This means that the gospel of Luke was written within 30 years of Jesus' death.
Massacre of the babies
Bethlehem, as far as the Romans were concerned, was an insignificant and very small town located about five miles south of Jerusalem at around 2500 feet elevation. It probably had a population of no more than 500 - 600 people. Micah 5:2 it says, "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah..."
If there were as many as 600 people in Bethlehem, how many children would have been under the age of two? Ten, twenty, thirty? Whatever the number, it would not have been hundreds. It would have been relatively few. Add to this the fact that Herod was known for committing horrendous crimes against people and you could see why this event in an insignificant village in the Jewish area, might be ignored.
Jews wandering in the desert
it may be that the traditional site of Mt. Sinai is incorrect. Gal. 4:25 says "Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children." Present theories dealing with Mt. Sinai's location have it in the Sinai Peninsula, yet the Bible says it was in Arabia.
Darkness at Christ's death
"Circa AD 52, Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. This work itself has been lost and only fragments of it exist in the citations of others. One such scholar who knew and spoke of it was Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221...In speaking of Jesus crucifixion and the darkness that covered the land during this event, Africanus found a reference in the writings of Thallus that dealt with this cosmic report. Africanus asserts: 'On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.'"1
Prophecies of the Bible
Odds of Jesus filling the prophecies:
The odds of Jesus fulfilling 48 of the 61 major prophecies concerning Him are 1 in 10157; that is a one with 157 zeros behind it. By comparison, the estimated number of electrons in the entire known universe is about 1079; that is a one with 79 zeros behind it.
Prophecies of the Bible
Virgin Birth Prophecy
Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
Note: the Jews who translated the Septuagint (Greek Translation of the Hebrew Old Testament) translated Isaiah 7:14 as the word virgin, not young maiden.
att. 1:18,25, "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary...was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit... But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."
Born in Bethlehem
Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
Matt. 2:1, "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem."
Preceded by a messenger
Isaiah 40:3, "A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'"
Matt. 3:1-2, "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"
Side Pierced
Zech. 12:10, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one mourns for an only son."
John 19:34, "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water."
Crucifixion
Psalm 22:16-18, "a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."
Luke 23:33, "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals -- one on his right, the other on his left."
John 19:33, "But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs."
John 19:23-24, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes..they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it." This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, "They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." So this is what the soldiers did."
Scientific Accuracies in the Bible
The spherical shape of the earth(Isaiah 40:22).
The earth is suspended in nothing (Job. 26:7).
The stars are innumerable (Gen. 15:5).
The existence of valleys in the seas (2 Sam. 22:16).
The existence of springs and fountains in the sea (Gen.7:11; 8:2; Prov. 8:28).
The existence of water paths(ocean currents) in the seas (Psalm 8:8).
The water cycle (Job. 26:8; 36:27-28; 37:16; 38:25-27; Ps. 135:7; Ecc. 1:6-7).
The fact that all living things reproduce after their own kind (Gen. 1:21; 6:19).
The nature of health, sanitation, and sickness (Gen.17:9-14; Lev. 12-14).
The concept of entropy, that energy is running down (Psalm 102:26).

________________________
1. McDowell, Josh, A Ready Defense, Thomas Nelson Publishers; Nashville, Tenn., 1993, p. 80.
2. Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.
3. Mays, James Luther, Ph.D., Editor, Harpers Bible Commentary, (New York: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.) 1988.
4. Robertson, A.T., A Harmony of the Gospels, Harper & Row; New York` 1950. pp. 255-256.
5. Douglas, J. D., Comfort, Philip W. & Mitchell, Donald, Editors, Whos Who in Christian History, Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1992.
6. Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harpers Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985
7. Douglas, J. D., Comfort, Philip W. & Mitchell, Donald, Editors, Whos Who in Christian History, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1992.
8. McDowell, Josh, A Ready Defense, Thomas Nelson Publishers; Nashville, Tenn., 1993, p. 80.
9. Robertson, A.T., A Harmony of the Gospels, Harper & Row; New York` 1950. pp. 255-256.

p.s. hows that for a counter. Science looks at natural phenomena through measuring, weighing, seeing, etc. God, by definition, is not limited to the universe. Therefore, it would not be expected that physical detection of God would be found.

BY THE WAY THIS IS AN OFF TOPIC FORUM!!! MR. BAH or should i say captain obvious...

[ExcruciationX]

there's a LOT more proof against the existence of a god than there is for one. individual accounts vs scientifically proven fact. no contest. to be honest chrisitanity is just a sect of judaism with slightly diffetent beleifs and values. anyway, people usually beleive what they are brought up to beleive, and thankfully for me religion wasn't forced on me, and i was bought up to be able to think for myself, not beleive something fo the hell of it.
That's what I just said.

[tactful mcbee]

If you say that atheism needs no evidence or reason, then you are holding a position that has no evidence or rational basis? If so, then isn't that simply faith?
How do you account for the laws of logic in a universe without God? The Laws of logic are conceptual by nature and absolute. Being absolute they transcend space and time. They are not the properties of the physical universe (since they are conceptual) or of people (since people contradict each other, which would mean they weren't absolute). So, how do you account for them?

[bullhead]

oh well guess bull know me better than i do...



Yes, I think so.

"It's funny. I'm younger then most of you guys, yet I'm the most mature, free-thinking, and thoughtful person here."

PHOEY!

[tactful mcbee]

"It's funny. I'm younger then most of you guys, yet I'm the most mature, free-thinking, and thoughtful person here." ExcruciationX said that. not iceman

[bullhead]

yeah I know, I thought it was funny...

[tactful mcbee]

i doubt your much younger than me. lol

[bullhead]

Age has not much to do with anything....It never has.

[tactful mcbee]

with age comes wisdom, but i get what your going for

[bullhead]

Would you not agree, that, with experience comes wisdom?

[ExcruciationX]

i doubt your much younger than me. lol
How old are you?

yeah I know, I thought it was funny...

Why? I'm not arguing with anybody. I'm not making a fool of myself trying to disprove religious zeal.

[tactful mcbee]

depends on the person. some kids keep putting their fingers in sockets lol

22

[bullhead]

depends on the person. some kids keep putting their fingers in sockets lol

haha! What I mean is, there are many many people I have come accross, who have been on this planet much longer than myself, yet their minds are stone, and drawing any sence or opinion from them is like drawing blood from ice.

(dont worry EX im not being mean, you are a superb chap! :)

[ExcruciationX]

I'm 15. :)

[tactful mcbee]

7 years isn't bad... but i will say you are mature.

i've have ran into those people too there bull. i debate them for their hypocracy and their ignorant reasons for believeing. "christians" who can't defend their faith shouldn't be debating. granted they should share their faith, but blind arguments with no rooted reasoning won't convert most. me and iceman are trying to show that christianity is not some religion where science disproves it, but actually helps its authenticity as being absolute truth. the people you have talked to in the past accept what they hear and don't look into it.

[bullhead]

What it boils down to, for myself, is that I was told something, and I chose to reject it. Christianity doesnt comfort me, I studied it for at least ten years.

Thats not to say that I dont believe in a higher being. Infact, one of the most intelligent men in the planet(the funny looking on in the chair) said, "you would be a fool not to believe in a supreme being)
Im at a stage where I have rejected my faith, im out in the open, alone in a way, and im trying to grasp hold of some other meaning outside of religion.

[tactful mcbee]

no offence intended, but how can you say christianity doesn't comfort you. when simple faith and repentance is a guarantee for eternal bliss with the creator.

[bullhead]

I say that because I don't trust what people tell me. I dont believe either that an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful and loving being, would throw a soul to eternal damnation just because it didn't believe its fellow man.
I know you say its Gods word through man, but that in itself is told to us by man, so how can we know?
Faith right?
I'd rather live a full life, and take from it what I will to enjoy myself. So at the end, I can say, "wow, that was quite fun!" I dont think a compassionate being would condemn pleasure. I dont think a compassionate being would have me perpetuallay tortured for eternity for not listening to what he is told.
If God is this vengeful beast, then God is dead, then God and Satan are one in the same.

[tactful mcbee]

This question raises many issues. If God is all loving, why would He send people to hell? What is hell? Is it a place of eternal torment? Why create creatures knowing they will end up in an eternity of damnation? Is God helpless to save them all?
Often times, skeptics try and present an idea so that fairness and compassion necessitate that the Christian God cannot be real. For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. As one skeptic put it, "If God truly loves us (this sacrificial love you talk about) then he would simply say 'I do not want the child to be born'. He is in control and has that ability doesn't he? As I would not wish any of my children who I love to go through a life of agonizing pain." The main problem with such an approach is that it is overly simplistic and based on emotionalism, not scripture. So, let's look at what the Word of God says.
First of all, when God made Adam, He made him good. Adam had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey God. Adam is the one who rebelled. God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion. It would be like a parent having a child knowing that the child would eventually disobey the parent. Does this means that the parent is responsible for the child's rebellion when it occurs because the parent knew it would happen? Of course not. Furthermore, if the parent has more children, does he/she not know that some children may very well turn out good and others bad? Should the parents then not have children because some of them might turn out bad? The skeptic, if he is consistent, would urge parents not to have any children at all lest some of them turn out bad.
But the skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.
Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? If the critic says he only want those people born who go to heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?
Third, God could have reasons for sending people to hell that we cannot understand.
Fourth, God is just and always does what is right. Therefore, sending people to hell is the right thing to do, especially when we understand that God is eternally holy and those who sin against God incur an infinite offense because the infinite God is the one who is offended.
Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell. They go there because they are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Whether or not they are created or not does not effect the fact that sinners must be punished; otherwise, the holiness and righteousness of God mean nothing.

[bullhead]

Again, I believe that every point you have raised is based on things you have been told by man, you have been told how to think, and if you dont think like this, the bogey-man will get you. That is, in my experience, what it comes down to.

[ExcruciationX]

(dont worry EX im not being mean, you are a superb chap! :)
Thank you. :)

At the end of my life I will be happy, and will go back to non-existence. That seems like the best after-life to me.

[bullhead]

really? I couldnt imagine anything more terrifying than oblivion!

[ExcruciationX]

Well, you're at peace. And you can't think about it, since you don't have a brain. It doesn't bother me.

[bullhead]

wow

[tactful mcbee]

think of the price you will pay if your wrong. is it worth it

[ICE]

yeah there is some proof for atheism, however, there is more proof for christianity. actually if you look into it there are a large number of physicists who are christians.

saying that christianity is incapable of explaining everything in detail is, no offense, ignorant. i have spent more time studying "science"(ie. quantum physics and various other fields of science) than the actually bible... and guess what. THEY LINE UP PERFECTLY.

G-d made the laws of science. all of them. i, for one, believe that when jesus performed a miracle the was some logic behind it. when he healed someone it wasnt really just magic. there is literally one thing in the entire bible that requires "faith". everything else can be explained with logic and reason.

the one thing is the resurrection. there is ample proof for EVERYTHING surrounding the resurrection but that is the only science defying event in the bible. that is where faith comes in.

if the whole bible is backed by science(it is if you study it) except ONE event.. then well i honestly think it takes more blind faith to be atheist then to be a christian.

EDIT: mcvader, i dont even no where to start. your post was utterly shocking in its ignorance. and whats worse is someone agrees! i cannot believe that there are this many people here with that little knowledge and yet they insist on talking about it!!

mc, literally everything you said makes no sense. your blatantly lying out of ignorance. please until you actually have studied, NOT FROM A BIASED SOURCE AS MOST OF YOU CLEARLY HAVE, dont post here please.

EDIT x2: bull, yes the bible was written by people.. but what the crap man?? how do you think we got science? it fell from the sky? nope... um yeah people wrote those books and studied these things.

next time you want to disprove our beliefs then maybe try and come up something that doesn't apply TO NEARLY EVERYTHING!! lol

[tactful mcbee]

iceman has a point on the written science. maybe not the most tactful way of saying it, but a counter non-the-less

[ICE]

im sorry for being a rude... mcvader's post really got to me. it was literally him throwing every lame excuse and misconception at me. its so frustrating when we shoot down so many counters with logic and then one guy tries and uses all of them over all at once..

im sick and tired of hearing that the bible was written by man and is therefore not reliable!! when was the last time you read a book that wasnt by man!?!?! 98% textually pure!!! should we believe that?? uh... nah.

[bullhead]

Your posts seem unnecessarily long and seem to lack a point, you call mc vader ignorant, yet you dont really say why that is so.
Is it because he doesnt have the same beliefs as you?
All your posts are either obstinate defence or a recital of quotes of a popular belief system, that bear no relevance to the person you are conversing with. You would make a good politician I think.

[tactful mcbee]

bull, iceman's post were not intended to defend his faith. they were to inform others of reasons for christianity, which caused friction for some. after that it was pure defence, not forcing religion

got to go to work. ill be back tomarrow

[ExcruciationX]

This is getting interesting.

[ICE]

i lost my cool and i said i was sorry already for that. im human. when people attack me with things that are simply not true i get a little upset. i came here to simply tell you all the facts and i get attacked. i dont know what says about some of you but i think you can all figure it out.

[ExcruciationX]

Well, I think your zeal is what's making people mad (myself a little too).


when people attack me with things that are simply not true i get a little upset.

That's all I'll say.

BTW, you have a cute dog, IceMan. Cute picture too. :)


Tactful mcbee, are you actually going to use homebrew? This is a homebrew site.

[ICE]

Well, I think your zeal is what's making people mad (myself a little too).



That's all I'll say.

BTW, you have a cute dog, IceMan. Cute picture too. :)


Tactful mcbee, are you actually going to use homebrew? This is a homebrew site.

ah ha!! my backwards psychology has worked!!!! now you know how I feel about some of you guys!!! everyone here, but Ex, has done NOTHING but tell me that they KNOW that they're right and poke fun at me because of that!!

do you guys see what im saying?

fyi matt is on 3.03 OE-C with a fully customized XMB thanks to me.

[ExcruciationX]

Yeah, I'm pretty cool. :p

[ICE]

lol yep all i want is for everyone to do what we have. take what we "know" throw it out and start over.

if you do that and still disagree just say so(nicely) and thats fine with us. all we can do is tell you what we believe. plant the seed and walk away.

[ExcruciationX]

So is your dog a nice dog?

Is it nice to people?

[opiate81]

Wow..
and here I was believing that Lord Xenu had sucked my soul up in a soul vacuum cleaner.. stuffed mine as well as millions of other alien souls into a volcano where we were shot out to earth inhabiting these primal bodies.
thankyou for opening my eyes

maybe they should start up an athiest camp like the gay camps so you can "Pray the brain away"

[bullhead]

Omg M8 Ur So Gay! You Must Be Like Rly Dumb Or Sumthin! Wtf!? Are You Like Some Sort Of Dumbass? U Must Ave No Friends, Get A Real Job!

[ICE]

anyone who says something to me in a sarcastic or otherwise belligerent way will be ignored.

Ex- my dog, tactful's dog's sister, is nice to most people. she hates the local drunk though.. oh and she hates all other dogs..

[tactful mcbee]

Wow..
and here I was believing that Lord Xenu had sucked my soul up in a soul vacuum cleaner.. stuffed mine as well as millions of other alien souls into a volcano where we were shot out to earth inhabiting these primal bodies.
thankyou for opening my eyes

maybe they should start up an athiest camp like the gay camps so you can "Pray the brain away"

all i can say while being tactful at the same time is: .....WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. i sense the sarcasm, but the point of that post is beyond me.

[gdf]

anyone who says something to me in a sarcastic or otherwise belligerent way will be ignored.

Ex- my dog, tactful's dog's sister, is nice to most people. she hates the local drunk though.. oh and she hates all other dogs..

ANYWAY...dude you still religious?


its so frustrating when we shoot down so many counters with logic

also, WHAT LOGIC!!!!?!?!?!!?!?!??? the supposed "logic" of a dude coming back to life who cured the blind and shit and an all seeing thing in the sky that controls our lives. hmm...yes, pure logic there. THINK. HOW can all this bullshit be possible. sorry for getting a bit angry but it pisses ME off when christians speak shit that they think is the truth when it clearly is not.

[mcvader]

Wow, I'm glad my post got to theICE_MAN, seems I hit a nerve :)

As bull said you call me ignorant because you don't agree with me, my post made perfect sence and was to the point, I clearly took every point from you're post and shat on it. In return instead of countering my points (which I intentionally tried to make humorous) you call me ignorant (I've been called worse).

As you're clearly very passionate about this subject I wonder if you could counter the points I've made. In debating one side makes a point and the other counters that point and so on, if you have a counter for my ignorant post please share.

As you have said earlier "you don't know me, don't tell me about my life" and all that jazz, If I had as little knowledge as you claim I would'nt have bothered posting at all, the fact is I have looked up this crap and have spent a lot more time than I should have thinking about this subject and discussing it with my (brighter) friends.

None of the dogma you've been on about is new to me, I didn't just hear the story of christ in some cartoon and say "that's stupid, christians are stupid" no I came about my views myself from THINKING, no one has told me what to think, if they had I would be a good catholic.

I would LOVE to believe that there was an after life, that the people I have lost are looking down on me , protecting me, and if I follow the word of the bible I'd be going to sit by Gods side in the kingdom of heaven and be reunited with those gone, the problem is I don't and I don't see any way of forcing myself to believe something that reason and logic tell me is fantasy.

EDIT: theICE_MAN, My post wasn't just attacking you, I've got nothing against you personally, I was attacking the christian faith in general as every point you made was the generally accepted christian viewpoint. The fact that my post upset you is worrying, you need to be thicker skinned than that, the real world is alot harsher.

[tactful mcbee]

when iceman says your ignorant he isn't trying to insult you. you say your countering his beliefs by saying it is make believe or nonlogical, that is not a counter.

a good counter would be giving a reason to be atheist not by saying christianity doesn't make sense. give some evidence that christianity doesn't exist. something like contridiction in the bible or jesus' so called "tomb". if you can you would have a better response. so far, their really hasn't been any good couters.

f.y.i. no one said catholics were christian

edit: hey gdf, if you find better "logic" on the creation of the universe i'd like to hear. and matter suddenly coming to existence doesn't count.

[ICE]

mcvader, if you've heard this from catholics then.. well you havent.. catholics ARENT christians.

i prefer when people use real points against it not just statements like thats stupid or i could be jesus. no one has given a good counter that would hold up in a debate. not one person and yet WE'RE the ones who are stupid...

if you disagree great but dont post if you dont have a REAL counter point!!!

EDIT: mcvader:: on the evolution thing. the bible never says no evolution. traditional christian believe in an 8000 years old which makes evolution impossible. i dont so its not impossible. you assumed i was like every other christian.

you say jesus had a mental issue and that meaninglessness scares me. um yeah you got me there man... good point. its so good ive nothing to say.. jesus was a crazy guy. who thousands of eyewitnesses saw preform miracles.

you said i dont sin because im afraid of god's punishment. yep. you say the people in dark ages had that but we dont need that anymore. nope. the dark ages didnt have that. it was the DARK AGES. people DIDNT EVEN READ IN THE DARK AGES!!! last i check the bible is a book. someone needs to google the dark ages... lol another good point by vader!! wooo

you say that you might be jesus and i cant disprove that. :rofl: hahahaha thats just dumb. i wont even dignify that with a counter...

ok there vader countered your ignorance lol. happy now??? lol that was fun. rude but fun. dont be offended. i was keeping it light.

[Cap'n 1time]

mcvader, if you've heard this from catholics then.. well you havent.. catholics ARENT christians.


Uncalled for and ignorant. And could you please only make one Jesus thread and stick to it?

I will not lock this thread, but if it turns into a flame war I will. Infractions will be handed out also. Don't test the ban hammer, you've been warned.

[ICE]

sorry there cap'n catholics arent christians man. this isnt something im ignorant to. its not uncalled for either since lots of people seem to think its a christian denomination. if that offends you im sorry but im not changing my stance.

EDIT: by the way no ones flaming anyone. at least i know i wont and im not now.

also this may be a game website but the threads are in the off topic section..

EDTI x2: i have free time so i'll elaborate.
christians believe to get to heaven all you gotta do is accept jesus. he bought you a ticket so just take it. simple eh?

catholics believe that you have to be dunked in water. baptized. now christians do the whole baptized thing too but we accept it as what it is. a physical act. a work. the bible clearly says your saved by faith through grace NOT BY WORKS so that no man may boast.

catholics put WAY too much emphasis on mary. she was just a women just like jesus called her several times. if mary was equal to jesus as some catholics believe then why would jesus keep calling her WOMEN?

catholics attend mass(literally means death in latin or something) where they eat and drink jesus. christians have the lords supper where we simply meet to remember what he did for us. catholics do it every mass and believe that they are literally eating some jesus. no comment.

the pope (every pope to date) has either claimed to be god or as good as god. the ones that havent been quoted saying stuff like that still dont deny it.

im not going to go any farther unless im asked to. now let the yelling at iceman begin!!!!

[Cap'n 1time]

sorry there cap'n catholics arent christians man. this isnt something we're ignorant to. its not uncalled for either since lots of people seem to think its a christian denomination.

EDIT: by the way no ones flaming anyone. at least i know i wont and im not now.

also this may be a game website but the threads are in the off topic section..

I may have misunderstood the situation. sorry about that. Its just a warning, so no infractions were actually given.

This may be offtopic, but even off topic has to be clean. I dont like seeing 1000 threads about the same subject. I think the majority of people on DCemu find it a touch annoying as well.

[ICE]

the other thread is not about this. its completely different. maybe you should rep me too show how sorry you are about the misunderstanding eh??

[ExcruciationX]

Ex- my dog, tactful's dog's siser, is nice to most people. she hates the local drunk though.. oh and she hates all other dogs..
Awwwwhhh... :o

Have you seen my puppy?

[tactful mcbee]

i know this topic has evolved into something different, but the dog thing is a bit of a stretch

the truth can never be unclean captain warning

[ICE]

Awwwwhhh... :o

Have you seen my puppy?

did you post a pic in that pet thread? it seems like ive seen it.

[ExcruciationX]

Well, here she is again.

http://xs113.xs.to/xs113/07132/Shieka[1].jpg

[mcvader]

OK, so you're saying catholics arent christians, then who are??

Mainly there are Catholics and Protestants (yes I know there are many types of protestants), the protestant movement was created by Mark Luther, I'm not sure of the date of this but I think it was roughly 14th-15th century, and that's means 1400 - 1500 years after christ, ok Im sure it won't surprise you to know that the Catholic church dates back alot further than that, are you saying there were no real christians untill Protestant's came along? Or did you mean the Church of England that Henry VIII came up with so he could divorce his wife and come up with his own religious laws?

Next point the Dark Ages, the Dark ages were the years following the fall of the Roman Empire, sure only the privaleged few read back then, but that's been the same way up untill a few hundred years ago, are you saying that the christian religion was put on hold through that period and that people forgot about Jesus??

The Evolution thing, Adam and Eve didn't go through evolution did they? therefore the bible states that there is no such thing.

The point I was trying to make with the "you can't prove I'm not Jesus" thing is this, you shouldn't believe something because it can't be disproven, you should only believe what can be proven and take the rest with a grain of salt.

And for Jesus having a mental issue, Just Imagine the second coming of Jesus, A guy going around saying he's the son of god and can preform magic, where would end up? The nuthouse, so by todays standards, yes he had some issues alrighty.

PLEASE point out my Ignorance.

EDIT: The whole fear of Gods wrath thing, would you not act the same way without that threat?

A quote if I may, Grand Moff Tarkin "Fear will keep the surrounding systems in line, Fear of this Battestation" lol.

It's interesting that the Nazi's also used fear to control the population.

I can honestly say that I act right because it's the right thing to do, not because of fear, but because it would be against my nature to do otherwise.

FREEEEEEDOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM..........

[kcajblue]

catholics do it every mass and believe that they are literally eating some jesus. no comment.who ever said we literally think we are eating a part of him.

and didnt christians branch off of catholics?

[ICE]

OK, so you're saying catholics arent christians, then who are??

Mainly there are Catholics and Protestants (yes I know there are many types of protestants), the protestant movement was created by Mark Luther, I'm not sure of the date of this but I think it was roughly 14th-15th century, and that's means 1400 - 1500 years after christ, ok Im sure it won't surprise you to know that the Catholic church dates back alot further than that, are you saying there were no real christians untill Protestant's came along? Or did you mean the Church of England that Henry VIII came up with so he could divorce his wife and come up with his own religious laws?

Next point the Dark Ages, the Dark ages were the years following the fall of the Roman Empire, sure only the privaleged few read back then, but that's been the same way up untill a few hundred years ago, are you saying that the christian religion was put on hold through that period and that people forgot about Jesus??

The Evolution thing, Adam and Eve didn't go through evolution did they? therefore the bible states that there is no such thing.

The point I was trying to make with the "you can't prove I'm not Jesus" thing is this, you shouldn't believe something because it can't be disproven, you should only believe what can be proven and take the rest with a grain of salt.

And for Jesus having a mental issue, Just Imagine the second coming of Jesus, A guy going around saying he's the son of god and can preform magic, where would end up? The nuthouse, so by todays standards, yes he had some issues alrighty.

PLEASE point out my Ignorance.

okiedokie

catholics arent christians and ive already explained why. their beliefs arent christian beliefs. also im no protestant. so dont try and classify me as something im not in a attempt to "catch" me at fault. i am currently not anything like protestant or methodist. none of those are completely right so i will not claim them.

no im not saying it was put on hold. im saying that it was on a bit of a down period. you said that people in the dark ages had religion hanging over them and really not a lot of people were into the whole religion thing then.

as for evolution the bible never says they didnt evolve.. it just says that man appeared on the 6th day. if you read my other thread you'll see that the 7 "days" of creation werent days. they could easily have been billions of years not just 24 hours.

and for jesus being crazy... im not even going to comment on a judgment issue. give me points i can counter not personal opinions.

EDIT: who said catholics are eating christ? um uh well the pope. also christians didnt branch off from catholics. messianic judaism was prolly the first true christian "church"

[kcajblue]

we say that. but we dont mean literally.

[ICE]

its not just that. actually heres a link that names a few. -- http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

[kcajblue]

#4 about the drinking from the cup is wrong.
anyone who wants to can drink from the cup.
ive seen some little kid drink from it.

[mcvader]

When did I say you were a Protestant??
From the sounds of things you must be the only true christian..... but thats one of the problems with religion, for it to be true every other religion would have to be false.

I never met a Catholic who dosn't think of himself as a Christian, there is no basis for you're claim that they are not and I'm sure that would be very insulting to catholics. They could say the same of you're beliefs.

Sure I'm just voicing my opinion, and so is everybody else incuding yourself, there have been no real fact's in this thread.

What in you're opinion is the true Christianity?? The one you seem to be making up yourself??

In my opinion any religion is just a way to control people based on fear.

If I am wrong than God can do whatever he likes with me, If my being a good peson (yes, in my opinion) throughout my life would send me straight to hell than I'd rather be there than submit myself to a dictator.

[ExcruciationX]

Um, mcvader.

Martin Luther started the Lutheran church.

[tactful mcbee]

catholics is a babylonian branch of religion, which is where 90% of all pagan gods come from. the goddess mother and god child has been renamed throughtout history in every culture. egypt had isis and osiris, india isi and iswara, asia has cybele and deoius, rome had fortuna and boy jupiter, greece had cerea and the great mother. which all came from babylon.

by the way mcvader, how is what we are saying trying to control you? we are saying there is a way to be freed from your sin with just simple faith and repentence.

i know some religions use fear of hell to conform people for their will, but how can our message control you. we get nothing from you if you convert.

if you convert what loss do you have? what do you lose?

[ICE]

When did I say you were a Protestant??
From the sounds of things you must be the only true christian..... but thats one of the problems with religion, for it to be true every other religion would have to be false.

I never met a Catholic who dosn't think of himself as a Christian, there is no basis for you're claim that they are not and I'm sure that would be very insulting to catholics. They could say the same of you're beliefs.

Sure I'm just voicing my opinion, and so is everybody else incuding yourself, there have been no real fact's in this thread.

What in you're opinion is the true Christianity?? The one you seem to be making up yourself??

In my opinion any religion is just a way to control people based on fear.

If I am wrong than God can do whatever he likes with me, If my being a good peson (yes, in my opinion) throughout my life would send me straight to hell than I'd rather be there than submit myself to a dictator.

sorry misunderstood you on the protestant thing. as for me being the only true christian theres probably 2 or 3 more out there lol. (sarcasm. theres a few more than that)

the reality is that its been so corrupted over time that there arent a lot of true christians left.

as for the catholic thing, just because they think they're going to heaven means nothing. yeah that would make them mad. oh well the truth hurts. i have no basis? you clearly read nothing ive posted on it.

the last paragraph is sad. a dictator forces you to do what he wants with nothing in return. g-d simply ASKS that you accept his offer and if you do you're off the hook.

the truth is that we all have sinned and fallen short. no one is perfect and g-d knows that. the problem is that he is g-d and he is perfect. he is light we are dark. notice i said WE not you lol. light and dark cannot mingle so we need someone to pay our way in.

the punishment for sin is death. hell. jesus accepted that punishment for all of us and all you have to do is accept him. the cool part is that if you really accept him your going to realize "man im in debt to this guy!!!" so your going to try your hardest to be a good person and follow the rules. its a choice.


#4 about the drinking from the cup is wrong.
anyone who wants to can drink from the cup.
ive seen some little kid drink from it.

ok well each church has variations on beliefs and practices. is that the only one?

[ExcruciationX]

Keep in mind folks, there are some good things that come out of religion...

It unites people. It makes you feel happy, and allows you to interact with people that share the same beliefs as you. It also diminishes your fear of death, which is good for your overall mental health.

[gdf]

i don't mind if people are religious, but saying you'll get a free ride to heaven is the wrong reason to be religious. i seriously hope the ice man isn't one of those "just in case people". also if you are saying catholics aren't true christians i'm not sure if i agree. however much i despise the catholic church and how different sects are made from the same religion, i think this is wrong. saying that you could also argue that christianity isn't a true religion as it never existed in the time of jesus. jesus was a jew, obvious i know but it has to be said as a reminder. also, if you are looking for counters, this whole thread has been counter after counter, with some dog stuff, then more counters. here are a few counters. religion is MAGIC. i don't expect to see harry potter strolling in the door any time soon. jesus was either i) VERY clever, ii) crazy, iii) stupid or iv) a bit of all of these. can you honestly believe a dude walked on water or came back from the dead. this is magic, not scientific fact. the bible was written over a period of 1500 years by loads of different people, is full of missinterpritations and half truths and is very exaggerated. another point is that religion was thought up by people in tribes. they wanted control of the tribe as the leaders were always the strongest men, but when they said that they were told to lead everyone or let the tribesmen be smited they got control. i have counters for almost any point you make. don't underestimate the atheists!!

EDIT: i also hate the whole idea of "we are born sinners" thing. how negative.

[Shadowblind]

The Trinity had simple roots. Nowhere in the bible does ANYTHING support the idea that god, Jesus and the holy spirit are the same being. Constantine made the Trinity due to pagan religions often having 3 main gods. That way, many more people, pagan or otherwise, would join.

[ICE]

christianity wasnt around when jesus was here becuase he hadnt died yet. the whole basis for our beliefs is on the fact that he died for us. that wouldnt work if he hadnt done it yet.

i'll say it again catholics arent christians lol. if you have a question as to why ask.

yeah the concept of being a born sinner is negative but its true. can anyone here say that they've lived a perfect sinless life? i doubt it lol.

as for jesus being clever or crazy for claiming to perform miracles.. there were eye witnesses. dont say the bible was mistranslated because its 98% textually correct. honestly it takes more faith to be atheist then to be christian. ive tried both and one makes more since then the other.

im not calling anyone stupid or anything negative like that. i simply disagree with the idea of everything being one huge coincidence.


EDIT: ive noticed a lot of people are assuming that what mainstream "christians" believe is what tactful and myself believe. we may disagree here and there but we're fairly similar.

basically if you wanna know what WE think on a certain belief or on a topic ask away.

[tsimehC]

Ok Ice Man, sorry for my limited knowledge in Christianity but doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible that Jesus (peace be upon him) will undergo the same thing Jonah did in the whale? If you can please clarify.

[ICE]

Ok Ice Man, sorry for my limited knowledge in Christianity but doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible that Jesus (peace be upon him) will undergo the same thing Jonah did in the whale? If you can please clarify.

um im not sure actually. if there is im sure tactful will know so STAY TUNED! lol he should be on in the morning or so.

if there is i think its something like in the sense that they both went through HUGE trials. jonah was swallowed by a whale(actually is was probably a shark that has since gone extinct) and jesus was well ya know.

EDIT: sorry i was a bit slow on this one mcvader lol i over looked it.

you what the true christianity was and if it was what i appear to be making up. im not making anything up.

over time groups that started out christian slowly were corrupted to the point that they arent anymore. all i am doing is TRYING to get back to where it all began. i want to find the beliefs of the FIRST christian group and follow them. it is logical that the first group should be the most pure and therefore the most correct.

[Jeremysr]

Ok Ice Man, sorry for my limited knowledge in Christianity but doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible that Jesus (peace be upon him) will undergo the same thing Jonah did in the whale? If you can please clarify.

1. Jesus died on the cross/Jonah was swallowed by a big fish.
2. Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days/Jonah was in the fish's stomach for 3 days.
3. Jesus rose from the dead after the 3rd day/Jonah was spat out of the fish on the 3rd day.

Those are the similarities I think...


over time groups that started out christian slowly were corrupted to the point that they arent anymore. all i am doing is TRYING to get back to where it all began. i want to find the beliefs of the FIRST christian group and follow them. it is logical that the first group should be the most pure and therefore the most correct.

The beliefs of true christians are what the Bible says. Find a church (like mine) that only teaches from the Bible, instead of things made up by people. I think that's what you're looking for...

[ICE]

Jeremysr, finding a church like that is easier said than done. ive visited probably close to 50 with no luck lol

[gdf]

christianity wasnt around when jesus was here becuase he hadnt died yet. the whole basis for our beliefs is on the fact that he died for us. that wouldnt work if he hadnt done it yet.

i'll say it again catholics arent christians lol. if you have a question as to why ask.

yeah the concept of being a born sinner is negative but its true. can anyone here say that they've lived a perfect sinless life? i doubt it lol.

as for jesus being clever or crazy for claiming to perform miracles.. there were eye witnesses. dont say the bible was mistranslated because its 98% textually correct. honestly it takes more faith to be atheist then to be christian. ive tried both and one makes more since then the other.

im not calling anyone stupid or anything negative like that. i simply disagree with the idea of everything being one huge coincidence.


EDIT: ive noticed a lot of people are assuming that what mainstream "christians" believe is what tactful and myself believe. we may disagree here and there but we're fairly similar.

basically if you wanna know what WE think on a certain belief or on a topic ask away.



to be an atheist is easy. i just used my brain and thought "wow, religion is a pile of shit". i honestly can't beleive that jesus walked on water, the earth is just a few thousand years old etc. anyway, who is to say the bible isn't a pile of fictuous crap as it was written under such odd circumstances. religion is so negative yet refuses to use it's brain and decide that it is infact impossible to come back to life after three days of death without some sort of futuristic medical technology.

[tactful mcbee]

jonah's real life experience became a metaphor and prophecy of what the future messiah would do.
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. the peace that you talk of isn't mentioned in that situation, but jesus does talk about peace a lot.

and gdf if you can give evidence to be atheist, then you make yourself an ignorant moron that you say we are. all you did is quote are reasons and said their stupid. give us reasons your right.


The Trinity had simple roots. Nowhere in the bible does ANYTHING support the idea that god, Jesus and the holy spirit are the same being. Constantine made the Trinity due to pagan religions often having 3 main gods. That way, many more people, pagan or otherwise, would join.
you are obvious a jehovah's witness. trinity is not said in the bible, but the idea is. the father, jesus, and holy spirit are either called god or call themselves god and the bible says there is one god. jesus said before abraham was i am, which was a direct quote from exodus where god said in the burning bush you shall call me i am that i am. jehovah witnesses try to say jesus said i have been due to the perfect indefinit tense of the word, but they seem to overlook that there is no perfect indefinit tense in greek. the holy spirit is said in acts that he is a person and is god. 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. 4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was also yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God!” you can't lie to a force it has to be a person.

i can also answer most questions about jehovah witness's

ps hey iceman, can you believe daisy got ran over. man i'm mad...

[ICE]

to be an atheist is stupid. i just used my brain and thought "wow, religion is a pile of wonderfulness". i honestly beleive that jesus walked on water, the earth is just a few thousand years old etc. anyway, who is to say the bible isn't a pile of historical documents written by reliable people. religion is so positive and uses to use it's brain and decide that it is infact possible to come back to life after three days of death WHEN YOUR G-d!!!!

man seriously give reasons that arent just opinions. who the crap here said that the earth was thousands of years old? as tactful said earlier the bible is known by everyone, atheist AND christian, to be 98% textually pure. quite assuming that you know what christians believe and start researching things before you go calling them things.

when you just call religions the things you did you come across quite childish.

hehehe i like your post better that way ^^

[tactful mcbee]

yea seriously gdf, you could at least go to an atheist website with "factual evidence" and copy and paste so we can rebuke it. your making it a simple argument when it could be an intellectual debate. debates are interesting (and i think fun), but arguments are pointless and boring.

seriously, give us your best. i'm not being arrogant, i just like studying and helping others understand our beliefs.

no question will offend us as long as its asked in a respectful manor.

[ExcruciationX]

to be an atheist is easy. i just used my brain and thought "wow, religion is a pile of shit". i honestly can't beleive that jesus walked on water, the earth is just a few thousand years old etc. anyway, who is to say the bible isn't a pile of fictuous crap as it was written under such odd circumstances. religion is so negative yet refuses to use it's brain and decide that it is infact impossible to come back to life after three days of death without some sort of futuristic medical technology.
You are some what right, but you shouldn't call it a "pile of shit" just because you don't believe in it.

[gdf]

ok, that was disrespectful. but seriously, i think you need "factual evidence" for christianity. look to science. also, the way you changed my post made what you were saying sound like total rubbish. you call me childish, yet you have to edit what i say in order to prove a point which cannot be proven. atheism takes more courage to do and more faith than christianity. for a start you have to think and make decisions for yourself, noit rely on others to make them for you and tell you what to do. i am very much an independant person, and the same level of individuality would be unachieveable if i were religious.

[tactful mcbee]

what we r saying, you don't have factual evidence to be atheist

also you cannot give factual evidence we are wrong

[ICE]

ok, that was disrespectful. but seriously, i think you need "factual evidence" for christianity. look to science. also, the way you changed my post made what you were saying sound like total rubbish. you call me childish, yet you have to edit what i say in order to prove a point which cannot be proven. atheism takes more courage to do and more faith than christianity. for a start you have to think and make decisions for yourself, noit rely on others to make them for you and tell you what to do. i am very much an independant person, and the same level of individuality would be unachieveable if i were religious.

well if you were offended by my JOKE im sorry. i was trying to make light of some of this becuase when people get serious sometimes they get mad too.

um as for the no free will in religion um you dont get it. if someone died and was tortured to spare YOU as an individual would you not try and tell everyone that the same can be done for them?

the price of sin is death. you can either pay that ransom yourself or let jesus do it for you. free will. if you take it and dont go telling everyone i highly doubt you took it. its not something you can be quite about. eternal separation from a god who loves you and created you is a terrible price to pay. luckily i know this guy who can pay your way in. i'll give you his number later.

[gdf]

lol, but still jesus never died for YOU. he died because....the people hated him. WOOOO! why did they hate him? because he was a bulshitting con artist madman who thought he was the son of an etheral being in space who alledgedly created the universe. btw i was going to give you rep for engaging me in a decent thread about proper stuff and not just crap speak, but it won't let me because i gave you rep recently(ish). thanks for making a good discussion/argument with me on this site rather than just another funny video.

[ICE]

lol, but still jesus never died for YOU. he died because....the people hated him. WOOOO! why did they hate him? because he was a bulshitting con artist madman who thought he was the son of an etheral being in space who alledgedly created the universe. btw i was going to give you rep for engaging me in a decent thread about proper stuff and not just crap speak, but it won't let me because i gave you rep recently(ish). thanks for making a good discussion/argument with me on this site rather than just another funny video.

he died for everyone. 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

i dont appreciate you calling jesus a blankity blank con artist madman. just because you disagree with me doesnt mean you need to insult my beliefs.

oh and thanks on the would-be rep.

oh and still no scientific proof against g-d from anyone here lol. i mean unless you count "theres no proof for g-d!!" i want scientific factual evidence!!! not opinions!!!

have a nice day ;)

[gdf]

sorry for yet again insulting you. it just kind of happens when i speak about religion...glad we're back on good terms! anyway, it is very hard to scentifically disprove the existance of a god. you just have to really decide for yourself (see! i wrote "decide" instead of "use your ****ING brain"!). that said it is also just as hard to prove the existance of a god. i just find it impossible to even imagine the existance of such a being. i know you will say it is all about faith, but i have faith only what i think, not anyone else.

[Jeremysr]

theICE_MAN -- Why do you say spell "God" like "g-d" all the time? (Sorry if it's too off-topic...)

[gdf]

yeah i was wondering that...

[ICE]

theICE_MAN -- Why do you say spell "God" like "g-d" all the time? (Sorry if it's too off-topic...)

instead of explaining i'll just quote tactful :D


God's name is treated with unusual care in Jewish tradition. The divine name, YHWH (spelled with the Hebrew letters yud, hey, vav, hey) is never pronounced. Traditionally, Jews read the word "Adonai" (often translated as "the Lord") whenever reading God's holiest name in Torah or in prayer. However, "Adonai" is not God's name.

[bullhead]

Here is some proof in there being no supreme being; legs and teeth. We would never have created some sort of munching device if it werent for atheism. Think about it. If we had no teeth then we would have had to have had some sort of oddball behavioural habits where the opinions and onions of all humankind, men and all, they would never have thought to believe in an after-life. Instead we would have just died like flies, and then gone to heaven. But no! Instead we go through life like mindless wolves or dolphins trying to search for reason and using faith as a disguise for another way of being, as they say. They say. And so do you, you have to see where I am coming from, rejection of the dissimilar, and satisficing with the culprits of confusion.

I hope this has given you all something to think about.

bull, x.

[ExcruciationX]

ps hey iceman, can you believe daisy got ran over. man i'm mad...
Did you kill the asshole that ran her over?

I hate people that hit dogs with their cars...

[tactful mcbee]

i was at work when it happened. the guy was probably speeding, but this is like the 10th time she has jumped over the fence. she ought to be in track and field lol

man i've been answering alot of questions but no rep for me!!! whats up with that gdf?

[LilSwish722]

Remember, however, that the gospels were written decades after Jesus died.

Not true. Some of this is true. But mostly, John, Matthew, Peter, and Mark all walked with Jesus and wrote letters to him. Therefore the Gospels WERE written during Jesus' lifetime.

EDIT: The_IceMan...I applaud you for what you are doing. It seems that it's near impossible to get people to even CONTEMPLATE the existence of Jesus and God. It's refreshing to see someone is taking the same amount of effort as me to spread the religion of Christianity.

[SnesR0X]

We believe that if you don't accept Christ, you will burn in Hell. We do it because we care.

Super Happy Fun Time!:thumbup:

[tactful mcbee]

truth hurts

[bullhead]

Truth enlightens, x.

[Accordion]

if truth is single, and can not be broken, or indeed bent[for need of its own solidity] then truth can not observe itself; truth is unseeable. All who claim to witness, tell, or pass truth must be mistaken!!!
-K

[bullhead]

if truth is single, and can not be broken, or indeed bent[for need of its own solidity] then truth can not observe itself; truth is unseeable. All who claim to witness, tell, or pass truth must be mistaken!!!
-K

At last!

[ICE]

um you do realize that doesnt make sense right? um truth cant be bent so you cant find it? um mind connecting the dots for me?

LilSwish, thanks.

[LilSwish722]

Yea. I made no sense out of that statement. And don't pay attention to AvengedSevenfold Fan's comment. I know for a fact he isn't a Christian.

[tactful mcbee]

truth is what God says is truth. God created physics, logic, and every concept that man has yet to figure out.

[gdf]

i don't like the way you say what god says is truth is thruth. it really sounds like you are brainwashed...sort of.

[eazy-e]

this is my belief juss wanted to share it with yall








The Islamic and Christian views of Jesus: a comparison

The person of Jesus or Isa in Arabic (peace be upon him) is of great significance in both Islam and Christianity. However, there are differences in terms of beliefs about the nature and life occurrences of this noble Messenger.

Source of information about Jesus in Islam

Most of the Islamic information about Jesus is actually found in the Quran.

The Quran was revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), and memorized and written down in his lifetime. Today, anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim believes in the complete authenticity of the Quran as the original revealed guidance from God.

Source of information about Jesus in Christianity

Christians take their information about Jesus from the Bible, which includes the Old and New Testaments.

These contain four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus. They have been written, according to tradition, respectively by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are placed at the beginning of the New Testament and comprise close to half of it.

Encyclopedia Britannica notes that none of the sources of his life and work can be traced to Jesus himself; he did not leave a single known written word. Also, there are no contemporary accounts written of his life and death. What can be established about the historical Jesus depends almost without exception on Christian traditions, especially on the material used in the composition of the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, which reflect the outlook of the later church and its faith in Jesus.

Below are the views of Islam and Christianity based on primary source texts and core beliefs.

ISLAM

1. Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES

Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them) is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim.

The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:

"The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75).

2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES

Like Christians, Muslims believe Mary, Maria in Spanish, or Maryam as she is called in Arabic, was a chaste, virgin woman, who miraculously gave birth to Jesus.

"Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family, to a place in the East. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our spirit (angel Gabriel) and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from you in God Most Gracious (come not near) if you do fear God. He said: Nay, I am only a Messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a pure son. She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: ‘That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Quran 19:16-21).

3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES

The Quran says:

"She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47).

It should also be noted about his birth that:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59).

4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES

"Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " (19:29-30).

5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES

Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.

"Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).

6. Do Muslims believe in the Trinity? NO

Muslims believe in the Absolute Oneness of God, Who is a Supreme Being free of human limitations, needs and wants. He has no partners in His Divinity. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation.

God says in the Quran regarding the Trinity:

"People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).

7. Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO

"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).

The Quran also states:

"Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35).

8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO

"“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157) .



CHRISTIANITY

1. Do Christians believe Jesus was a human being and Messenger of God? YES & NO

With the exception of Unitarian Christians, who like all the early followers of Jesus, still do not believe in the Trinity, most Christians now believe in the Divinity of Jesus, which is connected to the belief in Trinity. They say he is the second member of the Triune God, the Son of the first part of the Triune God, and at the same time "fully" God in every respect.

2. Do Christians believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES

A chaste and pious human woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, and at the same time "fully" God Almighty in every respect.

Christians believe however, that while she was a virgin, she was married to a man named Joseph (Bible: Matthew:1:18). According to Matthew 1:25, Joseph "kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus".

3. Do Christians believe he had a miraculous birth? YES

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit" (Bible: Matthew 1:18)

4. Do Christians believe he performed miracles? YES

"And now, Lord, look upon their threats, and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thou stretches out thy hand to heal, and sign and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus (Bible: Acts 4:30).

Christians believe that Jesus performed these miracles because he was the Son of God as well as the incarnation of God.

5. Do Christians believe in the Trinity? YES

With the exception of the Unitarian Christians, who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ, the Trinity, according to the Catholic encyclopedia, is the term used for the central doctrine of the Christian religion. The belief is that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons or beings are distinct from each another, while being similar in character: uncreated and omnipotent.

The First Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Const., "De fide. cath.", iv). The First Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes that of all revealed truths, this is the most impenetrable to reason.

6. Do Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God? YES

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him (Bible: John 3:16).

However, it is interesting to note that the term "son of God" is used in other parts of the Bible to refer to Adam (Bible: Luke 3:38), Israel (Bible: Exodus 4:22) and David (Bible: Psalms 2:7) as well. The creatures of God are usually referred to in the Bible as children of God.

The role of Paul of Tarsus in shaping this belief and the belief in Trinity

The notion of Jesus as son of God is something that was established under the influence of Paul of Tarsus (originally named Saul), who had been an enemy of Jesus, but later changed course and joined the disciples after the departure of Jesus.

Later, however, he initiated a number of changes into early Christian teachings, in contradiction, for instance, to disciples like Barnabas, who believed in the Oneness of God and who had actually lived and met with Jesus.

Paul is considered by a number of Christian scholars to be the father of Christianity due to his additions of the following ideas:

o

that Jesus is the son of God,
o

the concept of Atonement,
o

the renunciation of the Law of the Torah.

Paul did these things in hopes of winning over the Gentiles (non-Jewish people). His letters are another of the primary sources of information on Jesus according to the Christian tradition.

The original followers of Prophet Jesus opposed these blatant misrepresentations of the message of Jesus. They struggled to reject the notion of the Divinity of Jesus for close to 200 years.

One person who was an original follower of Jesus was Barnabas. He was a Jew born in Cyrus and a successful preacher of the teachings of Jesus. Because of his closeness to Jesus, he was an important member of the small group of disciples in Jerusalem who had had gathered together following the disappearance of Jesus.

The question of Jesus's nature, origin and relationship with God was not raised amongst Barnabas and the small group of disciples. Jesus was considered a man miraculously endowed by God. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view.

The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 CE Iranaeus (130-200) wrote in support of pure monotheism and opposed Paul for injecting into Christianity doctrines of the pagan Roman religion and Platonic philosophy. He quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views. This indicates that the Gospel of Barnabas was in circulation in the first and second centuries of Christianity.

In 325 (CE), a council of Christian leaders met at Nicaea and made Paul's beliefs officially part of Christian doctrine. It also ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script which contradicted Paul's beliefs should be destroyed. An edict was issued that anyone in possession of these Gospels would be put to death.

The Gospel of Barnabas has miraculously survived though.

7. Do Christians believe he was killed on the cross? YES

This is a core Christian belief and it relates to the concept of atonement. According to this belief, Jesus died to save mankind from sin. However, this is not stated explicitly in the four gospels which form the primary source texts of Christianity. It is found, however, in Romans 6:8,9.

Christians believe Jesus was spat on, cut, humiliated, kicked, striped and finally hung up on the cross to endure a slow and painful death.

According, to Christian belief, the original sin of Adam and Eve of eating from the forbidden tree was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless, innocent Jesus.

Resurrection

The four Gospels and the Epistles of St. Paul are the main sources of Christianity which discuss the Resurrection of Jesus after his crucifixion. According to St. Matthew, Jesus appeared to the holy women, and again on a mountain in Galilee. Mark's Gospel tells a different story: Jesus was seen by Mary Magdalene, by the two disciples at Emmaus, and the Eleven before his Ascension into heaven.

Luke's Gospel says Jesus walked with the disciples to Emmaus, appeared to Peter and to the assembled disciples in Jerusalem. In John's Gospel, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, to the ten Apostles on Easter Sunday, to the Eleven a week later, and to seven disciples at the Sea of Tiberias.

Another account of the resurrection by St. Paul is found in Bible: Corinthians 15: 3-8.

According to Christian belief, Resurrection is a manifestation of God's justice, Who exalted Christ to a life of glory, as Christ had humbled himself unto death (Phil., 2: 8-9). This event also completes the mystery of Christian salvation and redemption. The death of Jesus frees believers from sin, and with his resurrection, he restores to them the most important privileges lost by sin (Bible: Romans 4:25).

More importantly, the belief in the resurrection of Jesus indicates Christian acknowledgment of Christ as the immortal God, the cause of believers' own resurrection (Bible: I Corinthians 4: 21; Phil., 3:20-21), as well as the model and the support of a new life of grace (Bible: Romans 4: 4-6; 9-11).

[LilSwish722]

Eazy...The God that Islam worship and the God that Christianity worship are two different Gods. Muhammad, the God that the Muslims worship, is not Jesus or God. And is actually the God of the Moon (if I remember correctly).

[eazy-e]

Eazy...The God that Islam worship and the God that Christianity worship are two different Gods. Muhammad, the God that the Muslims worship, is not Jesus or God. And is actually the God of the Moon (if I remember correctly).


first of all dude u have no clue about what ur saying. there's only 1 god and Muslims don't worship Muhammad he was just a prophet a messenger who with the help of gabriel spreaded godz messege to mankind. and no there's no o other deity to be worshipped but allah or god. muslims christains, jews all believe in the one god.

[gdf]

yes it is the same god. lots of people don't realise but they all worship the same one. jesus is an islamic prophet.

[Classic80s]

I can careless about religion, but both my parents are religious nuts.

Pity me please.

[tactful mcbee]

for one thing ur comparing islam to catholicism. which is completely different than what we have talked about.

second, you are completely wrong about paul. many of the liberal ideas of law being abolished came from paul's writings, but that is because his letters are taken out of contexted.

third you are assuming that the koran is the actual scriptures of God. which as christians we can not accept. i also do not accept allah as a god, but YHVH as the one true god. you can not find any contridictions in the bible while i on the other hand can pick the karon apart.

[LilSwish722]

Sorry Eazy. I got my people mixed up. Your right. Muhammad isn't the person that Muslims worship. It is Allah. But from there on out, I was correct. Allah is a completely different God from the God that Christians worship. Allah is a moon God. And please don't disrespect me. I know what I'm talking about.

[ICE]

saying that all monotheistic groups worship the same god is like pointing 10 different people at 10 different trees and saying they're all looking at the same tree!!

[LilSwish722]

hahaha theICE_MAN...but yea. It's the same basic concept. You can't expect to take one person and base your entire belief of a certain religion on the ONE person. That's like taking a Christian that goes home a crucifies himself everyday because he can, and thinking that the entirity of Christians are like that.

[eazy-e]

Sorry Eazy. I got my people mixed up. Your right. Muhammad isn't the person that Muslims worship. It is Allah. But from there on out, I was correct. Allah is a completely different God from the God that Christians worship. Allah is a moon God. And please don't disrespect me. I know what I'm talking about.


saying that all monotheistic groups worship the same god is like pointing 10 different people at 10 different trees and saying they're all looking at the same tree!!

wtf r u talkin lilswish allah is not the moon god there's only one god no matter what u call him.


and for u the ice man no matter what u worship and beleive if u practice a monotheistic religion den u worship the one and only god coz therez only one god......

[ICE]

and for u the ice man no matter what u worship and beleive if u practice a monotheistic religion den u worship the one and only god coz therez only one god......

nope. thats completely illogical. worshiping satan, as some do, is not the same as worshiping the one true god.

thats like saying that no matter what game your playing your still playing mario. i love analogies hehehe.

[LilSwish722]

[QUOTE=eazy-e;397610]wtf r u talkin lilswish allah is not the moon god there's only one god no matter what u call him. QUOTE]

I AM right. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not some stupid kid that is just saying things to sound important. Look, I searched around to see if I WAS right. And as it turns out, I was. I found NUMEROUS quran and Bible websites that state Allah as the moon god. One such site that I find is http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

And I'm going to ask one more time. Please do not disrespect me. It annoys me.

And theICE_MAN...your crazy lol. But in a good way.:thumbup:

[Cap'n 1time]

Sorry Eazy. I got my people mixed up. Your right. Muhammad isn't the person that Muslims worship. It is Allah. But from there on out, I was correct. Allah is a completely different God from the God that Christians worship. Allah is a moon God. And please don't disrespect me. I know what I'm talking about.

While the moon god thing is sort of correct, you are also incorrect. You are also deceiving yourself if you dont think the god of hte Hebrews was not heavily influenced by other gods from ancient civilizations.
Truly Allah is not a different god. It's a different version of the hebrew El, or Elah. People seem to have a problem with the fact that god has many many different names. Lets review some of them, shall we?

El(ah) - which If i recall is also the ulitmate Sumerian god or something like that.
Elohim
Adonai
Jehovah
Abhire - i think
Yesha
and the ultimate YHVH

[tactful mcbee]

the fact they are called hebrews means we are not influenced by other gods at all. hebrew means crossing over. abraham was the first hebrew because he crossed over to a different land and religion other than the babylonian influences. the reason God has so many names is because the hebrews were afraid to take His name in vain. YHVH is not God's real name because it is translated into english letters, so don't try to call me a hypocrit. elohim means god in hebrew, adonai means lord, el means might strength power, yeshua (jesus' name in hebrew) means god is salvation. just because we fear God's almighty power to the point we will not say His holy name, does not mean we worship any god that claims to be the most high.

[LilSwish722]

But Allah IS a different God. Our God (Christianity) does not worship a moon god. Which is what Allah truly is. We worship the only true God which is not Allah. They are two different people. As Jesus and Buddha are two different people.

[mesosade]

Ok let's compare the beggining of this thread with the current posts :

Jesus > Allah = wtf

[tactful mcbee]

Ok let's compare the beggining of this thread with the current posts :

Jesus > Allah = wtf


had to start defending our faith after some abuse

[mesosade]

tbh a lot of unusual threads have been popping up which are just laden with abuse...this community is starting to attract the more stubbourn angry ppl =/

[eazy-e]

i really need to educate sum of yall on the religion Islam

especially ice man and lilswish


Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word "Allah". For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews. This is totally false, since "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God" - and there is only One God. Let there be no doubt - Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus - peace be upon them all. However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God. For example, Muslims - like Jews - reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation. This, however, doesn't mean that each of these three religions worships a different God - because, as we have already said, there is only One True God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be "Abrahamic Faiths", and all of them are also classified as "monotheistic". However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas.

First of all, it is important to note that "Allah" is the same word that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use for God. If you pick up an Arabic Bible, you will see the word "Allah" being used where "God" is used in English. This is because "Allah" is the only word in the Arabic language equivalent to the English word "God" with a capital "G". Additionally, the word "Allah" cannot be made plural or given gender (i.e. masculine or feminine), which goes hand-in-hand with the Islamic concept of God. Because of this, and also because the Qur'an, which is the holy scripture of Muslims, was revealed in the Arabic language, some Muslims use the word "Allah" for "God", even when they are speaking other languages. This is not unique to the word "Allah", since many Muslims tend to use Arabic words when discussing Islamic issues, regardless of the language which they speak. This is because the universal teachings of Islam - even though they have been translated in every major language - have been preserved in the Arabic language.

It is interesting to note that the Aramaic word "El", which is the word for God in the language that Jesus spoke, is certainly more similar in sound to the word "Allah" than the English word "God". This also holds true for the various Hebrew words for God, which are "El" and "Elah", and the plural form "Elohim". The reason for these similarities is that Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic are all Semitic languages with common origins. It should also be noted that in translating the Bible into English, the Hebrew word "El" is translated variously as "God", "god" and "angel"! This imprecise language allows different translators, based on their preconceived notions, to translate the word to fit their own views. The Arabic word "Allah" presents no such difficulty or ambiguity, since it is only used for Almighty God alone. Additionally, in English, the only difference between "god", meaning a false god, and "God", meaning the One True God, is the capital "G". In the Arabic alphabet, since it does not have capital letters, the word for God (i.e. Allah) is formed by adding the equivalent to the English word "the" (Al-) to the Arabic word for "god/God" (ilah). So the Arabic word "Allah" literally it means "The God" - the "Al-" in Arabic basically serving the same function as the capital "G" in English. Due to the above mentioned facts, a more accurate translation of the word "Allah" into English might be "The One -and-Only God" or "The One True God".

More importantly, it should also be noted that the Arabic word "Allah" contains a deep religious message due to its root meaning and origin. This is because it stems from the Arabic verb ta'allaha (or alaha), which means "to be worshipped". Thus in Arabic, the word "Allah" means "The One who deserves all worship". This, in a nutshell, is the Pure Monotheistic message of Islam. You see, according to Islam, "monotheism" is much more than simply believing in the existence of "only One God" - as seemingly opposed to two, three or more. If one understands the root meaning of the word "Allah", this point should become clear. One should understand that Islam's criticism of the other religions that claim to be "monotheistic" is not because they are "polytheistic" in the classic sense, but because they direct various forms of worship to other than Almighty God. We will discuss the meaning of worship in Islam below, however, before moving on it should be noted that many non-Muslims are unaware of the distinction between simply believing in the existence of only One God and reserving all worship for Him alone. Many Christians are painfully unaware of this point, and thus you often find them asking how Muslims can accuse the followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, of being "polytheists" when they were all "monotheistic Jews". First of all, it should be clarified that the word "polytheist" doesn't really sound right in this context, since to many it implies simply believing in the existence of more than one God. So in an Islamic context, "associators", "man-worshippers" or "creature worshippers" might be more accurate and appropriate terms - especially since Christians believe Jesus to be both "100% God and 100% man", while still paying lip-service to God's "Oneness". However, as we're previously touched upon, what is really at the root of this problem is the fact that Christians - as well as the members of other religions - don't really know what "monotheism" means - especially in the Islamic sense. All of the books, articles and papers that I've read which were written by Christians invariably limit "monotheism" to believing in the existence of "One Sovereign and Creator God". Islam, however, teaches much more than this.

Suffice it to say that just because someone claims to be a "monotheistic" Jew, Christian or Muslim, that doesn't keep them from falling into corrupt beliefs and idolatrous practices. Many people, including some Muslims, claim belief in "One God" even though they've fallen into acts of idolatry. Certainly, many Protestants accuse Roman Catholics of idolatrous practices in regards to the saints and the Virgin Mary. Likewise, the Greek Orthodox Church is considered "idolatrous" by many other Christians because in much of their worship they use icons. However, if you ask a Roman Catholic or a Greek Orthodox person if God is "One", they will invariably answer: "Yes!". This lip-service, however, does not stop them from being "creature worshipping" idolaters. The same goes for Hindus, who just consider their gods to be "manifestations" or "incarnations" of the One Supreme God.

Everyone should be aware of the fact that throughout the long history of the "Abrahamic Faiths", there have people who, while believing in "One God", have adopted beliefs and practices that completely nullify their claim to "monotheism". This is the Muslim view of Christians. We're well aware of the fact that they claim belief in "One God" with their lips, but this doesn't mean that they don't nullify their claim in other ways. This is because many people simply haven't been taught everything that Pure Monotheism entails. From an Islamic point of view, "monotheism" can be nullified in many ways. For example, simply believing that it is permissible to rule by Western "liberal" and "democratic" laws in lieu of the Divinely Revealed Law of Almighty God makes one a "polytheist". Certainly, a person who does such a thing, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim, doesn't ever believe that there is another Almighty Creator and Sovereign Lord. However, for all practical purposes, such a person has take another "god", whether they choose to admit it or not. In this way they are associating partners with Almighty God (Arabic: shirk), and thus become a "polytheist" in a practical sense, regardless of their lip-service to "monotheism". This holds true even if the person doesn't believe what they are doing is "worship". For example, Roman Catholics who pray to the Virgin Mary will staunchly deny that they are "worshipping" her. They instead call it "adoration" or some other watered-down term. However, from an Islamic point of view, what is worship if not this? Islam teaches that prayer and supplication are the marrow of worship, so if one directs their prayers to an intermediary (even if the pray is "ultimately" meant for God), then what is left of worship? Additionally, how can someone who believes in Almighty God follow man-made laws instead of God's Law, without admitting that they've begun worshipping other than God? Do they know better than God?

Additionally, the Old Testament makes it perfectly clear that making a "graven image" of any created thing (not to mention ones which are supposed to "represent" Almighty God) is prohibited. Please see Exodus 20:4-6, Leviticus 26:1 and Deuteronomy 4:16, 23, 25, 5:8 and Nehemiah 9:6 for some statements in regards to this point. Without addressing the issue that Christians commonly violate the unambiguous commandment not to even "make" representations of anything that is in the "heavens above or on the earth beneath", these verses not only teach that worshipping idols is prohibited, but also that Almighty God is eternally distinct from His creation and thus nothing in His creation can represent Him. To believe otherwise is to be a de facto idol worshipper - even if one claims belief in one, and only one, "True God". In Exodus 20:4-6 and Deuteronomy 4:16, Almighty God - who is a "Jealous God" - makes it perfectly clear that He is distinct from His creation.

By giving such clear and merciful guidance to human beings, God is establishing a universal and eternal Truth for the benefit of mankind. This eternal Truth is the bedrock of religious guidance, since once people begin to believe that Almighty God mixes with or can be represented by His creation, they can be duped into believing almost anything. Once someone accepts that God has become "incarnate" in His creation, or that someone or something is a "manifestation" - and thus representation - of Him, the floodgates are open and "Truth" becomes a matter of subjective guesswork. Once the first and most basic concept is violated - regardless of how complicated and sophisticated the rationale for it might be - it is very easy to fall further and further away from the Eternal Truth of Pure Monotheism. In the final analysis, it is not a question of whether God is capable of becoming a man, but rather a question of whether one bases their beliefs about God on clear, unambiguous and authentic guidance. Once it is left up to the human mind to decide what Almighty God can and cannot do, the stage is set for misguidance to take root. Human speculation about God only ends up leading to misguidance and despair, since no clear conclusions can ever be reached. For example, is God capable of creating an object so heavy that He is incapable of moving it? If not, does that mean that He is incapable? It is because of misguided questions like this that Islam clearly teaches that mankind should only say about God what He has said about Himself. This means all of our ideas about God must be based on Revelation - not human speculation. In short, the final prophet of Islam - Muhammad - was sent by Almighty God to preach the same Pure Monotheism that was practiced by Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus - peace be upon them all. This Pure Monotheism means not only believing that there is only One God in existence, but realizing that He is transcedent above His creation and that all worship is due to Him alone.

Before concluding, we should probably address the practice of those Muslims who insist on using the Arabic word "Allah" even when speaking English. Even though this practice certainly is not to be condemned when it is done around those who understand the meaning of the Arabic word "Allah", it is my experience - both during my years as a non-Muslim and my years as a Muslim - that such a practice can (and usually does) breed misunderstanding. It seems that often times, many of the Muslims who use the word "Allah" in lieu of the word "God", even when trying to attract people to Islam, are unaware of the severe misunderstandings that many non-Muslims have about Islam (and the distorted way which Islam has been portrayed in the West). Insisting on using the word "Allah" only fuels the flames of misunderstanding - so there's no good reason to do it. I've often wondered what value some Muslims think that using the word "Allah" adds to the Pure Message that they are trying to convey. ( . . . and I'm still waiting for an answer!) Unfortunately, those Muslims who insist on using the word "Allah" even when addressing non-Muslims who are unfamiliar with Islam and the Arabic language, do both a disservice to themselves and their religion. Unfortunately, this practice is usually based on the false assumption - by a non-native speaker of English - that the word "God" in English is incapable of expressing a pure and proper belief in Almighty God. This is certainly false. If someone says that the English word "God" cannot be used to express the Pure Islamic Belief in Tawhid, they are wrong not because they don't understand Tawhid, but simply because they don't understand the English language. Many people who insist on using the Arabic word "Allah" usually don't realize this, because in reality, they are not so much affirming the word "Allah" as they are rejecting the word "God" as unsuitable - based on incorrect assumptions. For someone to assume that the word "God" presupposes a certain theological point-of-view (such as the Trinity) is simply Wrong - and that's Wrong with a capital "W". To say the word "God" should be rejected because it can be changed into "god", "gods" or "goddess" is illogical because each of these words has a distinctive meaning and a distinctive spelling - at least to someone who knows how to speak English correctly. Using the same logic, I can demonstrate that the root letters "ktb" can be used to form the Arabic words "kitab" (book), "maktabah" (library), "maktab" (office) and "kaatib" (writer), but does that mean that these words have the same meaning? Do Arabic-speaking people go through life confusing libraries with writers and offices with books (both in conversation and in reality)? I think not! This is not to mention the fact that if the Arabic "Al-" was put in front of these words in order to make them definite, confusion would be even less likely! So the logic in both cases is the same, and this is because even though the same letters are used in "God" and "god", these two words have two different meanings in the English language. The capital "G" implies something different than the small "g" - and anyone who denies this simply doesn't know how to speak the English language.

In concluding this point, it should be mentioned that Arabic-speaking Muslims who believe in Pure Tawhid, Arabic-speaking Christians, the idol worshippers of Mecca and (so-called) Muslims who believe in "Wahdat al-Wujud" all use the word "Allah". However, does this guarantee all of them proper belief in "Allah"? Certainly not, because if they have a corrupt concept of "Allah" it doesn't matter what word they use!

This brings us to a more important point: It should be clearly understood that what Islam is primarily concerned with is correcting mankind's concept of Almighty God. What we are ultimately going to be held accountable at the end of our life is not whether we prefer the word "Allah" over the word "God", but what our concept of God is. Language is only a side issue. A person can have an incorrect concept of God while using the word "Allah", and likewise a person can have a correct concept of God while using the word "God". This is because both of these words are equally capable of being misused and being improperly defined. As we've already mentioned, using the word "Allah" no more insinuates belief in the Unity of God than the use of the word "God" insinuates belief in the Trinity - or any other theological opinion. Naturally, when God sends a revelation to mankind through a prophet, He is going to send it in a language that the people who receive it can understand and relate to. Almighty God makes this clear in the Qur'an, when He states:

"Never did We send a Messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people in order to make (things) clear to them."

(Qur'an, Chapter 14 - "Abraham", Verse 4)

As Muslims, we think that it is unfortunate that we have to go into details on such seemingly minor issues, but so many falsehoods have been heaped upon our religion, that we feel that it is our duty to try to break down the barriers of falsehood. This isn't always easy, since there is a lot of anti-Islamic literature in existence which tries to make Islam look like something strange and foreign to Westerners. There are some people out there, who are obviously not on the side of truth, that want to get people to believe that "Allah" is just some Arabian "god", and that Islam is completely "other" - meaning that it has no common roots with the other Abrahamic religions (i.e. Christianity and Judaism). To say that Muslims worship a different "God" because they say "Allah" is just as illogical as saying that French people worship another God because they use the word "Dieu", that Spanish-speaking people worship a different God because they say "Dios" or that the Hebrews worshipped a different God because they sometimes call Him "Yahweh". Certainly, reasoning like this is quite ridiculous! It should also be mentioned, that claiming that any one language uses the only the correct word for God is tantamount to denying the universality of God's message to mankind, which was to all nations, tribes and people through various prophets who spoke different languages.

Before closing, we would like everyone to be aware of the fact that some Christian missionary organizations print English literature intended to teach Christians about Islam which say such things as: "Allah is the god of the Muslims" and that "Muhammad came to get people to believe in the god Allah" - implying that "Allah" is some sort of false "god". However, when these same organizations print literature in the Arabic language, hoping to lead Arabic-speaking Muslims "to Christ", they use the word "Allah" for God. It seems that if they were on the side of truth, they would not have to resort to such inconsistencies. And on an even more ridiculous note . . . there are also missionary organizations that exceed this in ignorance (or deceit) by writing books that call on Muslims to give up their belief in "Allah", and instead worship the "Lord" Jesus, "the Son of God". Besides making it abundantly clear that they are outside the community of Pure Monotheism, the people who write such material don't even realize that if they wrote such a pamphlet in Arabic, it would be self-contradictory. This is because in an Arabic Bible Jesus is the "Son of Allah"! If an Arabic-speaking person gave up the worship of "Allah", they would have no God to worship, since "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for God!

Before we conclude, however, we would like to ask our readers to ask themselves what they think the reasons are behind all of these lies? If Iólam was just some false religion that didn't make any sense, would so many people, from Western scholars to Christian missionaries, have to tell so many lies about it? The reason is that the Ultimate Truth of Islam stands on solid ground and its unshakable belief in the Unity of God is above reproach. Due to this, Christians can't criticize its doctrines directly, but instead make up things about Islam that aren't true so that people lose the desire to learn more. If Muslims were able to present Islam in the proper way to people in the West, it surely might make many people reconsider and re-evaluate their own beliefs. It is quite likely that Christians, when they find out that there is a universal religion in the world that teaches people to worship and love God, while also practicing Pure Monotheism, would at least feel that they should re-examine the basis for their own beliefs and doctrines.

[tactful mcbee]

like we say just because allah means god doesn't mean we worship your god. the bible and quran have different gods

In the Bible God "draws near", "comes down" and seeks after us in order to enter into an intimate relationship with us. The whole Bible is the story of God seeking man.

In the first chapters of the Bible about the creation and the fall of mankind we read that after the first sin/disobedience of Adam and Eve they are plagued by their conscience and try to hide from God. God comes to them in the garden and calls out to them, "Where are you?" (Genesis 3:9)

Man is on the run before God because he knows that he is guilty before God. However, God comes and seeks us and wants to reestablish a relationship of mutual love. It is God who takes all necessary steps to make this possible again. That is the story of the Bible from the first to the last book where we finally read about the new heaven and the new earth: "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people and God himself will be with them and be their God." (Revelation 21:3)

Finally the desire of God has been established. Read all of Revelation 21, it is a marvelous chapter.

Indeed God is a God who seeks after us, who comes down to be near us. He reveals his character, his heart and his desire to establish a loving relationship with his creation. Will you be part of his people that are mentioned in Revelation 21:3? That is the topic of the Bible, it reveals God to you so that you can respond to him and become part of his people.

In contrast, the Qur'an portrays God as one who is "far", who is transcendent only. As a Muslim theologian has said, "God reveals only his will, not himself. He remains forever hidden". Even though he is near as the jugular vein as the Qur'an states, but this is a "technical" nearness, since just as we are not "aware" of our jugular vein most of the time and don't have a personal relationship with it this only conveys that God is "everywhere" (far and near) like the air that is around us, but in the Bible God doesn't want to be with us only on the basis of his omnipresence and omniscience because being God he is "everywhere" anyway. No, he wants to be near to us like someone we love.

Islam is about man trying to please God by obeying his will. The Bible reveals God as taking the initiative and coming down to seek after us. The movement is in the opposite direction.

[ICE]

Just Because Two Guys Are Named Bob Doesnt Mean They're The Same Guy!!!!!!!!

[LilSwish722]

Just Because Two Guys Are Named Bob Doesnt Mean They're The Same Guy!!!!!!!!

That's the most simple way of putting. Another simple way is, whether or not you want to believe it...God and Allah are two different people.

[Accordion]

why do christians [real or not.?!] get preoccupied with converting all to christianity. a subject which requires this much defence surely cannot be very strong.
The path of your replies does not bode well for your position in view of others...

long live the missionary dictatorship of twenty page length!!! trUly! thy child will laugh until he wept tomorrow!??? madly!
________________________
get some 'k' down those peepholes yeehaw!!!

[eazy-e]

[QUOTE=LilSwish722;398228]That's the most simple way of putting. Another simple way is, whether or not you want to believe it...God and Allah are two different people.[/QU



there's only 1 god and no they r not people. so ur a tellin me that god is a human by saying God and Allah are 2 different people

[Accordion]

That's the most simple way of putting. Another simple way is, whether or not you want to believe it...God and Allah are two different people.



there's only 1 god and no they r not people. so ur a tellin me that god is a human by saying God and Allah are 2 different people

dont pay too much attention to the lemmings who carry whips.

[mesosade]

Religion is the reason the earth has war and conflicts all the time full stop.

[LilSwish722]

Eazy...I'm hoping you knew what I meant. Obviously not, which leads me to believe that you are fighting a losing battle and you know it. Mainly because you took some minor flaw in what I said and made it sound like I didn't know what I was saying. You took the word "people" and didn't bother to think about what it meant before you posted and commented on what I'm thinking. Are you finally realizing that your losing because you took that incredibly minor flaw?

[eazy-e]

Eazy...I'm hoping you knew what I meant. Obviously not, which leads me to believe that you are fighting a losing battle and you know it. Mainly because you took some minor flaw in what I said and made it sound like I didn't know what I was saying. You took the word "people" and didn't bother to think about what it meant before you posted and commented on what I'm thinking. Are you finally realizing that your losing because you took that incredibly minor flaw?

u r makin me laugh i no i aint losing coz i can battle u about religion anytime all day long and make u give up. bro so here sum more info for about the religion of islam


THE RELIGION OF ISLAM

The first thing that one should know and clearly understand about Islam is what the word "Islam" itself means. The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of Christianity which was named after Jesus Christ, Buddhism after Gotama Buddha, Confucianism after Confucius, and Marxism after Karl Marx. Nor was it named after a tribe like Judaism after the tribe of Judah and Hinduism after the Hindus. Islam is the true religion of "Allah" and as such, its name represents the central principle of Allah's "God's" religion; the total submission to the will of Allah "God". The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah" and anyone who does so is termed a "Muslim", The word also implies "peace" which is the natural consequence of total submission to the will of Allah. Hence, it was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) I in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form.

Islam is the religion which was given to Adam, the first man and the first prophet of Allah, and it was the religion of all the prophets sent by Allah to mankind. The name of God's religion lslam was not decided upon by later generations of man. It was chosen by Allah Himself and clearly mentioned in His final revelation to man. In the final book of divine revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah states the following:

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)

"Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:67)

Nowhere in the Bible will you find Allah saying to Prophet Moses' people or their descendants that their religion is Judaism, nor to the followers of Christ that their religion is Christianity. In fact, Christ was not even his name, nor was it Jesus! The name "Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos which means the annointed. That is, Christ is a Greek translation of the Hebrew title "Messiah". The name "Jesus" on the other hand, is a latinized version of the Hebrew name Esau.

For simplicity's sake, I will however continue to refer to Prophet Esau (PBUH) as Jesus. As for his religion, it was what he called his followers to. Like the prophets before him, he called the people to surrender their will to the will of Allah; (which is Islam) and he warned them to stay away from the false gods of human imagination.

According to the New Testament, he taught his followers to pray as follows: "Yours will be done on earth as it is in Heaven".

THE MESSAGE OF ISLAM

Since the total submission of one's will to Allah represents the essence of worship, the basic message of Allah's divine religion, Islam is the worship of Allah alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than Allah.Since everything other than Allah, the Creator of all things, is Allah's creation; it may be said that Islam, in essence calls man away from the worship of creation and invites him to worship only its Creator. He is the only one deserving man's worship as it is only by His will that prayers are answered. If man prays to a tree and his prayers are answered, it was not the tree which answered his prayers but Allah who allowed the circumstances prayed for to take place. One might say, "That is obvious," however, to tree-worshippers it might not be. Similarly, prayers to Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna, to Saint Christopher, or Saint Jude or even to Muhammad, are not answered by them but are answered by Allah. Jesus did nottell his followers to worship him but to worship Allah. As the Qur'aan states:

"And behold Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary Did you say to men, Worship me and my mother as gods besides Allah He will say-"Glory to you I could never say what I had no right (to say')" (Soorah Al-Maa'idah- 5:116)

Nor did he worship himself when he worshipped but rather he worshipped Allah. This basic principle is enshrined in the opening chapter of the Qur'aan, known as Soorah Al-Faatihah, verse 4:

"You alone do we worship and from you alone do we seek help".

Elsewhere, in the final book of revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah also said:

"And your Lord says:"Call on Me and I will answer your(prayer)."(Soorsh Mu'min 40:60)

it is worth noting that the basic message of Islam is that Allah and His creation are distinctly different entities. Neither is Allah His creation or a part of it, nor is His creation Him or a part of Him.

This might seem obvious, but, man's worship of creation instead of the Creator is to a large degree based on ignorance of this concept. It is the belief that the essence of Allah is everywhere in His creation or that His divine being is or was present in some aspects of His creation, which has provided justification for the worship of creation though such worship maybecalled the worship of Allah through his creation. How ever, the message of Islam as brought by the prophets of Allah is to worship only Allah and to avoid the worship of his creation either directly or indirectly. In the Our'aan Allah clearlystates:

"For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet,(with the command) worship meand avoid false gods " (Soorsh Al-Nahl 16:36)

When the idol worshipper is questioned as to why he or she bows down to idols created by men, the invariable reply is that they are not actually worshipping the stone image, but Allah who is present within it. They claim that the stone idol is only a focal point for Allah's essence and is not in itself Allah! One who has accepted the concept of the presence of God's being within His creation in any way will be obliged to accept this argument of idolatry. Whereas, one who understands the basic message of Islam and its implications would never concede to idolatry no matter how it is rationalized. Those who have claimed divinity for themselves down through the ages have often based their claims on the mistaken belief that Allah is present in man. They merely had to assert that although Allah according to their false beliefs, is in all of us, He is more present in them than in the rest of us. Hence, they claim, we should submit our will to them and worship them as they are either God in person or God concentrated within the person.

Similarly, those who have asserted the godhood of others after their passing have found fertile ground among those who accept the false belief of God's presence in man. One who has grasped the basic message of Islam and its implications could never agree to worship another human being under any circumstances. God's religion in essence is a clear call to the worship of the Creator and the rejection of creation-worship in any form. This is the meaning of the motto of Islam:

"Laa Elaaha lllallaah" (There is no god but Allah)

Its repetition automatically brings one within the fold of Islam and sincere belief in it guarantees one Paradise.

Thus, the final Prophet of Islam is reported to have said, "Any one who says: There is no god but Allah and dies holding that (belief) will enter paradise".(Reported by Abu Dharr and collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).

It consists in the submission to Allah as one God, yielding to Him by obeying His commandments, and the denial of polytheism and polytheists.

THE MESSAGE OF FALSE RELIGION

There are so many sects, cults, religions, philosophies, and movements in the world, all of which claim to be the right way or the only true path to Allah. How can one determine which one is correct or if, in fact, all are correct? The method by which the answer can be found is to clear away the superficial differences in the teachings of the various claimants to the ultimate truth, and identify the central object of worship to which they call, directly or indirectly. False religions all have in common one basic concept with regards to Allah. They either claim that all men are gods or that specific men were Allah or that nature is Allah or that Allah is a figment of man's imagination.

Thus, it may be stated that the basic message of false religion is that Allah may be worshipped in the form of His creation. False religion invites man to the worship of creation by calling the creation or some aspect of it God. For example, prophet Jesus invited his followers to worship Allah but those who claim to be his followers today call people to worship Jesus, claiming that he was Allah!

Buddha was a reformer who introduced a number of humanistic principles to the religion of India. He did not claim to be God nor did he suggest to his followers that he be an object of worship. Yet, today most Buddhists who are to be found outside of India have taken him to be God and prostrate to idols made in their perception of his likeness.

By using the principle of identifying the object of worship, false religion becomes very obvious and the contrived nature of their origin clear. As God said in the Our'aan:

That which you worship besides Him are only names you and your forefathers have invented for which Allah has sent down no authority: The command belongs only to Allah:

He has commanded that you only worship Him; that is the right religion, but most men do not understand ". (Soorah Yoosuf 12:40)

It may be argued that all religions teach good things so why should it matter which one we follow. The reply is that all false religions teach the greatest evil, the worship of creation. Creation-worship is the greatest sin that man can commit because it contradicts the very purpose of his creation. Man was created to worship Allah alone as Allah has explicitly stated in the Our'aan:

"I have only created Jlnns and men, that they may worship me"(Soorah Zaareeyaat 51:56)

Consequently, the worship of creation, which is the essence of idolatry, is the only unforgivable sin. One who dies in this state of idolatry has sealed his fate in the next life. This is not an opinion, but a revealed fact stated by Allah in his final revelation to man:

"Verily Allah will not forgive the joining of partners with Him, but He may forgive (sins) less than that for whom so ever He wishes"(Soorah An- Nisaa 4:48 and 116)

THE UNIVERSALITY OF ISLAM

Since the consequences of false religion are so grave, the true religion of Allah must be universally understandable and attainable, not confined to any people, place or time. There can not be conditions like baptism, belief in a man, as a saviour etc., for a believer to enter paradise. Within the central principle of Islam and in its definition, (the surrender of one's will to God) lies the roots of lslam's universality. Whenever man comes to the realization that Allah is one and distinct from His creation, and submits himself to Allah, he becomes a Muslim in body and spirit and is eligible for paradise. Thus, anyone at anytime in the most remote region of the world can become a Muslim, a follower of God's religion, Islam, by merely rejecting the worship of creation and by turning to Allah (God) alone-It should be noted however, that the recognition of and submission to Allah requires that one chooses between right and wrong and such a choice implies accountability. Man will be held responsible for his choices, and, as such, he should try his utmost to do good and avoid evil. The ultimate good being the worship of Allah alone and the ultimate evil being the worship of His creation along with or instead of Allah. This fact is expressed in the final revelation as follows:

"Verily those who believe, those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), the Christians and the Sabians any who believe In Allah and the last day, and work righteousness *hall have their reward with their Lord;They will not be overcome by fear nor grief (Soorah Al-Baqarah 2:62).

If only they had stood by the law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There Is from among them a party on the right course; but many of them follow a course that Is evil.". (Soorah Al-.Maa'idah 5:66)

RECOGNITION OF ALLAH

The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.

In Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'

Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".

If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.

The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).

So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold him to account or punish him for this religion.

Throughout people's lives from childhood until the time they die, signs are shown to them in all regions of the earth and in their own souls, until it becomes clear that there is only one true God (Allah). If the people are honest with themselves, reject their false gods and seek Allah, the way will be made easy for them but if they continually reject Allah's signs and continue to worship creation, the more difficult it will be for them to escape. For example, in the South Eastern region of the Amazon jungle in Brazil, South America, a primitive tribe erected a new hut to house their main idol Skwatch, representing the supreme God of all creation. The homage to the God, and while he was in prostration to what he had been taught was his Creator and Sustainer, a mangy old flea-ridden dog walked into the hut, The young man looked up in time to see the dog lift its hind leg and pass urine on the idol. Outraged, the youth chased the dog out of the temple, but when his rage died down he realized that the idol could not be the Lordof the universe. Allah must be elsewhere. he now had a choice to act on his knowledge and seek Allah, or to dishonestly go along with the false beliefs of his tribe. As strange as it may seem, that was a sign from Allah for that young man. It contained within it divine guidance that what he was worshipping was false.

Prophets were sent, as was earlier mentioned, to every nation and tribe to support man's natural belief in Allah and man's inborn inclination to worship Him as well as to reinforce the divine truth in the daily signs revealed by Allah. Although, in most cases, much of the prophets' teachings became distorted, portions remained which point out right and wrong. For example, the ten commandments of the Torah, their confirmation in the Gospels and the existence of laws against murder, stealing and adultery in most societies. Consequently, every soul will be held to account for its belief in Allah and its acceptance of the religion of Islam; the total submission to the will of Allah.

We pray to Allah, the exalted, to keep us on the right path to which He has guided us, and to bestow on us a blessing from Him, He is indeed the Most Merciful. Praise and gratitude be to Allah,the Lord of the worlds, and peace and blessings be on prophet Muhammed, his Family, his companions, and those who rightly follow them.

[LilSwish722]

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)
.

That line made me laugh. Basically what that says...if by what you are saying. We DO by some stretch of the imagination worship the same God. Then why does that say any other religion OTHER than Islam will not be accepted by God. So Jesus' own religion wouldn't even be accepted by his father???

[ICE]

ok fantastic. i believe allah is not real and the god of the bible is. your not going to change any minds so stop. you've made your point we get it. it didnt work so stop.

[tactful mcbee]

in order for you to convince us of the "truth" of your religion, you have to give examples we can trust. the quran can not be trusted due to some contridiction in its doctrine:

All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.

What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
"Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
"But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
"He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
"And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).
Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
"We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
Is wine consumption good or bad?
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

this is why i don't believe your scriptures

[Froogle]

Jesus Christ is the Messiah the Chosen Prophet of God. We Muslims believe in his prophethood and his miracles of healing the lepper, curing the blind, raising the dead...all by the will of God. Muslims do not worships prophets/messengers they believe in one God (Allah in Arabic) that has no partners. If Jesus is God, part of God, 1/3 or whatever false things you attribute to a noble Prophet then why does the Bible say he prayed...Who is he praying to? Who did he put his face on the ground to in submission? To himself? Why did Jesus say refute someone who called hiim good and he corrected him and said "Why do you call me good NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT God"... If Jesus "died" on the cross for YOUR sins then how can God die or part of God die. Who is taking care of the universe if God died? False statement by putting your sins on someone else shoulders. Why would God need to die to forgive your sins? He should just forgive your sins by each individual asking for forgivenss. God does not need to kill his Prophet or himself for your sins to be forgiven? That is a pagan idea....May God guide us to the striaght path.

Learn...Read...Gain knowledge and then make your conclusions.

www.islam-guide.com
www.shareislam.com

Fastest Growing Religion in the World is Islam because it is true and corrects other religions.
Learn about the religion not the people who practiice it.

[eazy-e]

Fastest Growing Religion in the World is Islam because it is true and corrects other religions.
Learn about the religion not the people who practiice it.[/QUOTE]

true indeed

[ICE]

Jesus Christ is the Messiah the Chosen Prophet of God. We Muslims believe in his prophethood and his miracles of healing the lepper, curing the blind, raising the dead...all by the will of God. Muslims do not worships prophets/messengers they believe in one God (Allah in Arabic) that has no partners. If Jesus is God, part of God, 1/3 or whatever false things you attribute to a noble Prophet then why does the Bible say he prayed...Who is he praying to? Who did he put his face on the ground to in submission? To himself? Why did Jesus say refute someone who called hiim good and he corrected him and said "Why do you call me good NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT God"... If Jesus "died" on the cross for YOUR sins then how can God die or part of God die. Who is taking care of the universe if God died? False statement by putting your sins on someone else shoulders. Why would God need to die to forgive your sins? He should just forgive your sins by each individual asking for forgivenss. God does not need to kill his Prophet or himself for your sins to be forgiven? That is a pagan idea....May God guide us to the striaght path.

Learn...Read...Gain knowledge and then make your conclusions.

www.islam-guide.com
www.shareislam.com

Fastest Growing Religion in the World is Islam because it is true and corrects other religions.
Learn about the religion not the people who practiice it.

even though i disagree i thank you for so eloquently stating your thoughts. i have very little knowledge on islam so i wont attempt to rebuke anything for rear of mis-stating. i know i hate it when others do that to me so i wont do it to you. i plan on reading up on the topic for a while though :D. thanks for the eye opener.. finally a religion i havent studied enough!!! lol

[tactful mcbee]

i will answer your questions, but i'm still waiting on your answers.

why did he have to die?

God is infinite.
There is no limit to Him. He is endless.
God is holy.
Holiness is purity. God is incapable of doing anything wrong. Part of the quality of holiness is the inability to do wrong.
God is just.
He always does what is right.
God cannot violate His own righteous declarations, because that would mean God is contradicting Himself.
This justice is according to His nature since it is He is who tells us what is right and wrong.
Therefore, God is infinitely holy and infinitely just
Neither His holiness nor justice can be denied since they are part of His character and God cannot be denied.
We are not infinite and not holy
We are not infinite because we are creations.
We are not holy because we have sinned.
Sin is doing anything against God's Law.
It is God who declares what is right and wrong. He has revealed this to us in the scriptures.
The Law is a reflection of God's character.
God speaks out of what is in His mind and heart. If He says do not lie, it is because it is against God's nature to lie.
God is not speaking without reason or purpose. If He had no reason or purpose, this would mean that God is not trustworthy.
God is trustworthy, therefore God's Law is the standard of perfection, justice, and holiness.
God's Law carries a penalty upon the sinner which is damnation.
Damnation is the act of God where He passes righteous judgment upon a person because of the person's sin against Him.
If breaking God's law did not carry a penalty, then there would be no damnation. But since there is damnation, we can conclude that breaking God's law carries a penalty.
If He did not damn based upon righteousness, then God is doing wrong. Since God cannot do anything wrong, then damnation is righteous.
God is affected by what we do.
Proof of this is found in our prayers. Since God answers our prayers, our prayers have an affect upon God because God is moved to answer.
If our prayers have no affect upon God, then prayer is useless since it accomplishes nothing.
Breaking God's Law, sinning, has a negative effect upon our relationship with God.
God is not injured in a physical way by our sins since God is spirit, perfect, and complete.
But, since damnation exists (because of the justice of God), we can conclude that sin has a negative affect upon the relationship between the sinner and God. If this were not so, there would be no damnation.
Since God is infinite, our offense against Him has an infinite effect.
It is the infinite God we have offended, therefore, the sin results in an infinite offense against God.
A finite person cannot remove an infinite offense against an infinite God.
A finite work cannot remove an infinite offense because the effort of a finite person will always fall short of meeting the justice of an infinite God.
God cannot arbitrarily forgive the sinner without satisfying His infinite justice.
If damnation is righteously given because of justice, so too, forgiveness must be in accordance with justice because both are dealing with sin.
To simply dismiss sin in order to forgive is to deny justice.
If forgiveness is not consistent with God's justice, then God is arbitrary, inconsistent, and unjust.
Therefore, the act of forgiveness also requires an act of justice.
Since it is just that the sinner die and be damned, this justice cannot be ignored.
If it were ignored, then God is not being consistent in His justice.
If it were ignored, then God has no right to damn anyone.
No one is damned who is alive. Only the dead are damned.
Since man cannot earn forgiveness from God through his finite works, it must be God who makes forgiveness possible.
This is so, because there is no one left to make things right, other than God.
Since it is not just to ignore the penalty for sin, and since man cannot satisfy God, there is none left but God to pay for the just penalty of sin.
The sin cannot be ignored because the act of forgiveness also requires and act of justice.
This justice cannot be ignored because God would then be inconsistent.
It is just that the sinner die and suffer judgment.
Death is a punishment of God and damnation follows death.
Since it is just that sin must be dealt with, God must meet that requirement of justice.
This is so, because a finite person cannot please and infinite God's just requirements of holiness and purity.
God must then do what is just in forgiveness of sins or justice cannot be met.
God must then take the place of the sinner and suffer the consequence of the lawful judgment of death upon the sinner.
With justice met, forgiveness can then be rightly given.
This forgiveness, which cannot be earned by man's effort, can only be received from God by man's faith - because there is nothing else he can do.

that is why he died but you also ask how can god or part of god die? most people don't understand the idea of death. his body died but not the soul, he made his body alive again, which is the resurrection.

why did he pray and submit?

HE WAS OUR EXAMPLE!!! he didn't rebuke the man for calling him good. he realized the man didn't know he was God and therefore made him realize that no man can be good.

the easiest way to explain the trinity is water.
h2o is the chemical makeup, but it can be ice(solid), water(liquid), and vapor(gas). it is the same in nature and makeup but different in its presence. and if you look up the triple point of water they can exist at the time in each form.l

now you prove me wrong

[SSaxdude]

Islam/Christianity/Judaism all share the same God, that's all I can really say about the 3 monotheistic religions. But I still don't buy into any of them.

[LilSwish722]

No No No. Islam is the fastest growing religion because it provides a SCAPEGOAT. The Gods are different. I can guarentee you that most of the people that convert to Islam are people who converted from religions other that Judaism and Christianity.

I'm not trying to offend anyone. And I'm not going to change my beliefs. However, I am having fun proving people wrong. lol

[eazy-e]

No No No. Islam is the fastest growing religion because it provides a SCAPEGOAT. The Gods are different. I can guarentee you that most of the people that convert to Islam are people who converted from religions other that Judaism and Christianity.

I'm not trying to offend anyone. And I'm not going to change my beliefs. However, I am having fun proving people wrong. lol

fun prvoing others wrong when ur wrong urself ma brotha. most of the new converts are mostly christaians and jews...

[eazy-e]

i will answer your questions, but i'm still waiting on your answers.

why did he have to die?

God is infinite.
There is no limit to Him. He is endless.
God is holy.
Holiness is purity. God is incapable of doing anything wrong. Part of the quality of holiness is the inability to do wrong.
God is just.
He always does what is right.
God cannot violate His own righteous declarations, because that would mean God is contradicting Himself.
This justice is according to His nature since it is He is who tells us what is right and wrong.
Therefore, God is infinitely holy and infinitely just
Neither His holiness nor justice can be denied since they are part of His character and God cannot be denied.
We are not infinite and not holy
We are not infinite because we are creations.
We are not holy because we have sinned.
Sin is doing anything against God's Law.
It is God who declares what is right and wrong. He has revealed this to us in the scriptures.
The Law is a reflection of God's character.
God speaks out of what is in His mind and heart. If He says do not lie, it is because it is against God's nature to lie.
God is not speaking without reason or purpose. If He had no reason or purpose, this would mean that God is not trustworthy.
God is trustworthy, therefore God's Law is the standard of perfection, justice, and holiness.
God's Law carries a penalty upon the sinner which is damnation.
Damnation is the act of God where He passes righteous judgment upon a person because of the person's sin against Him.
If breaking God's law did not carry a penalty, then there would be no damnation. But since there is damnation, we can conclude that breaking God's law carries a penalty.
If He did not damn based upon righteousness, then God is doing wrong. Since God cannot do anything wrong, then damnation is righteous.
God is affected by what we do.
Proof of this is found in our prayers. Since God answers our prayers, our prayers have an affect upon God because God is moved to answer.
If our prayers have no affect upon God, then prayer is useless since it accomplishes nothing.
Breaking God's Law, sinning, has a negative effect upon our relationship with God.
God is not injured in a physical way by our sins since God is spirit, perfect, and complete.
But, since damnation exists (because of the justice of God), we can conclude that sin has a negative affect upon the relationship between the sinner and God. If this were not so, there would be no damnation.
Since God is infinite, our offense against Him has an infinite effect.
It is the infinite God we have offended, therefore, the sin results in an infinite offense against God.
A finite person cannot remove an infinite offense against an infinite God.
A finite work cannot remove an infinite offense because the effort of a finite person will always fall short of meeting the justice of an infinite God.
God cannot arbitrarily forgive the sinner without satisfying His infinite justice.
If damnation is righteously given because of justice, so too, forgiveness must be in accordance with justice because both are dealing with sin.
To simply dismiss sin in order to forgive is to deny justice.
If forgiveness is not consistent with God's justice, then God is arbitrary, inconsistent, and unjust.
Therefore, the act of forgiveness also requires an act of justice.
Since it is just that the sinner die and be damned, this justice cannot be ignored.
If it were ignored, then God is not being consistent in His justice.
If it were ignored, then God has no right to damn anyone.
No one is damned who is alive. Only the dead are damned.
Since man cannot earn forgiveness from God through his finite works, it must be God who makes forgiveness possible.
This is so, because there is no one left to make things right, other than God.
Since it is not just to ignore the penalty for sin, and since man cannot satisfy God, there is none left but God to pay for the just penalty of sin.
The sin cannot be ignored because the act of forgiveness also requires and act of justice.
This justice cannot be ignored because God would then be inconsistent.
It is just that the sinner die and suffer judgment.
Death is a punishment of God and damnation follows death.
Since it is just that sin must be dealt with, God must meet that requirement of justice.
This is so, because a finite person cannot please and infinite God's just requirements of holiness and purity.
God must then do what is just in forgiveness of sins or justice cannot be met.
God must then take the place of the sinner and suffer the consequence of the lawful judgment of death upon the sinner.
With justice met, forgiveness can then be rightly given.
This forgiveness, which cannot be earned by man's effort, can only be received from God by man's faith - because there is nothing else he can do.

that is why he died but you also ask how can god or part of god die? most people don't understand the idea of death. his body died but not the soul, he made his body alive again, which is the resurrection.

why did he pray and submit?

HE WAS OUR EXAMPLE!!! he didn't rebuke the man for calling him good. he realized the man didn't know he was God and therefore made him realize that no man can be good.

the easiest way to explain the trinity is water.
h2o is the chemical makeup, but it can be ice(solid), water(liquid), and vapor(gas). it is the same in nature and makeup but different in its presence. and if you look up the triple point of water they can exist at the time in each form.l

now you prove me wrong


r u waiting for my answers brotha??

[tactful mcbee]

whenever you are ready.

[LilSwish722]

At this time, I see many flaws in your arguement. I mean, I'm not claiming what I'm saying is perfect but I can make more sense outta Christianity that Islam.

[SSaxdude]

What does Islam give you that the other two monotheistic religions don't? There must be something, hence why it's the fastest growing religion.

[ICE]

um its the fastest growing religion because its the native religion in the most populated countries in the world.

[Froogle]

What does Islam give you that the other two monotheistic religions don't? There must be something, hence why it's the fastest growing religion.

Very good Question!! Someone who is thinking wow. I will tell you what it gives me as a Muslim. It gives me complete and perfect understanding of my Creator without any flaws. The religion does not say God is man, God is anything that resembles his Creation. God is one and only one without partner. It encourages me to worship the Creator not any creation and to perform the good deeds to please Him. To ask for forgivenss and not put my sins on other people's shoulders. The main words of God -Quran that is memorized by millions word for word explains who our Creator is without ANY contradictions. In short, I know my creation and how to live my life by following the example his LAST messenger as best as I can. If you just learn about the Messenger you would be amazed about his perfect character.

[ICE]

Very good Question!! Someone who is thinking wow. I will tell you what it gives me as a Muslim. It gives me complete and perfect understanding of my Creator without any flaws. The religion does not say God is man, God is anything that resembles his Creation. God is one and only one without partner. It encourages me to worship the Creator not any creation and to perform the good deeds to please Him. To ask for forgivenss and not put my sins on other people's shoulders. The main words of God -Quran that is memorized by millions word for word explains who our Creator is without ANY contradictions. In short, I know my creation and how to live my life by following the example his LAST messenger as best as I can. If you just learn about the Messenger you would be amazed about his perfect character.

um pretty sure its what i said a bit ago lol.

# The Qur'an says "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).

Are you doing enough good deeds to receive salvation on the Day of Judgment?
Are you doing all you can or are you relaxing in your dedication to Allah?

# The Qur'an says, "O ye who believe! Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, on the day when Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him. Their light will run before them and on their right hands; they will say: Our Lord! Perfect our light for us, and forgive us! Lo! Thou art Able to do all things," (66:8-9). Notice how it says if you are sincere you may receive forgiveness.

How do you know you are sincere enough to be forgiven of Allah?
Does it give you peace to know that even if you are very sincere that at best, you may receive forgiveness?
If you say that you know you are sincere enough in your repentance before Allah, how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?
Is your heart really good enough to muster enough sincerity before a Holy and Righteous God?
If you say yes, I honestly and humbly ask you, "Are you being prideful?"
If you say you are not being prideful, then are you boasting in your sincerity?

hmm and you say that you feel secure??

[LilSwish722]

Ok. I must ask the Muslims on this site a few questions. Do you believe Jesus was a prophet?

[tactful mcbee]

Jesus Muhammad
Death Jesus died and rose from the dead Muhammad died and stayed dead.
Fighting Jesus never fought Muhammad fought many many times
Hearing from God When Jesus heard from God he went to the desert to be tempted and began his ministry with boldness, (Mark 1:14-15). When Muhammad heard from God (through an angel) he cowered, was uncertain, and wanted to commit suicide (Quran 74:1-5)
Identity Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:24; 8:58) as well as a man.
Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). Muhammad claimed to be a man.
Instructions Received From God the Father (John 5:19) From an angel
Killing Jesus never killed anyone Muhammad killed many
Life Jesus had the power to take life, but never did. He restored it. Muhammad had the power to take it, but he never restored it.

No one ever died in Jesus' presence Many people died in Muhammad's presence -- he killed them.
Marriage Jesus never married Muhammad had over 20 wives and even married a nine year old girl.
Ministry Jesus received his calling from God directly (Matt. 3:17).
Jesus received his commission in the daylight
Muhammad received it from an angel (Gabriel)
Muhammad received his words in the darkness of a cave.

Ministry Length Jesus taught for 3 1/2 years Muhammad taught for more than 20 years
Miracles Jesus performed many miracles including healing people, calming a storm with a command, and raising people from the dead. Muhammad's only alleged miracle was the Quran.
Prophecy Jesus fulfilled biblical prophecy about being the Messiah Muhammad did not fulfill any biblical prophecy except the ones about false teachers (Matt. 24:24).
Sacrifice Jesus voluntarily laid his life down for others Muhammad saved his own life many times and had others killed.
Sin Jesus never sinned (1 Pet. 2:22) Muhammad was a sinner (Quran 40:55; 48:1-2)
Slaves Jesus owned no slaves Muhammad owned slaves.
Virgin Birth Jesus was virgin born Muhammad was not virgin born.
Voice of God Jesus received and heard the direct voice of God (Mark 1:10-11) Muhammad did not receive or hear the direct voice of God. It was an angel instead.
Women Jesus spoke well of women Muhammad said women were were 1/2 as smart as men (Hadith 3:826; 2:541), that the majority in hell will be women (Had. 1:28,301; 2:161; 7:124), and that women could be mortgaged.

There is no comparison between Jesus and Muhammad. Muhammad falls so far short, that he cannot be held on any level remotely close to Jesus. Muhammad is clearly inferior to Christ.

[ICE]

Jesus Muhammad
Death Jesus died and rose from the dead Muhammad died and stayed dead.
Fighting Jesus never fought Muhammad fought many many times
Hearing from God When Jesus heard from God he went to the desert to be tempted and began his ministry with boldness, (Mark 1:14-15). When Muhammad heard from God (through an angel) he cowered, was uncertain, and wanted to commit suicide (Quran 74:1-5)
Identity Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:24; 8:58) as well as a man.
Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). Muhammad claimed to be a man.
Instructions Received From God the Father (John 5:19) From an angel
Killing Jesus never killed anyone Muhammad killed many
Life Jesus had the power to take life, but never did. He restored it. Muhammad had the power to take it, but he never restored it.

No one ever died in Jesus' presence Many people died in Muhammad's presence -- he killed them.
Marriage Jesus never married Muhammad had over 20 wives and even married a nine year old girl.
Ministry Jesus received his calling from God directly (Matt. 3:17).
Jesus received his commission in the daylight
Muhammad received it from an angel (Gabriel)
Muhammad received his words in the darkness of a cave.

Ministry Length Jesus taught for 3 1/2 years Muhammad taught for more than 20 years
Miracles Jesus performed many miracles including healing people, calming a storm with a command, and raising people from the dead. Muhammad's only alleged miracle was the Quran.
Prophecy Jesus fulfilled biblical prophecy about being the Messiah Muhammad did not fulfill any biblical prophecy except the ones about false teachers (Matt. 24:24).
Sacrifice Jesus voluntarily laid his life down for others Muhammad saved his own life many times and had others killed.
Sin Jesus never sinned (1 Pet. 2:22) Muhammad was a sinner (Quran 40:55; 48:1-2)
Slaves Jesus owned no slaves Muhammad owned slaves.
Virgin Birth Jesus was virgin born Muhammad was not virgin born.
Voice of God Jesus received and heard the direct voice of God (Mark 1:10-11) Muhammad did not receive or hear the direct voice of God. It was an angel instead.
Women Jesus spoke well of women Muhammad said women were were 1/2 as smart as men (Hadith 3:826; 2:541), that the majority in hell will be women (Had. 1:28,301; 2:161; 7:124), and that women could be mortgaged.

There is no comparison between Jesus and Muhammad. Muhammad falls so far short, that he cannot be held on any level remotely close to Jesus. Muhammad is clearly inferior to Christ.

"and jesus with the hay-maker of a right hand turns muhammad's lights out!!!! what a fight!!! jesus is STILL the champ!!! woooo"

please dont hit me muslims...

^^^^
joking :D

[Froogle]

um pretty sure its what i said a bit ago lol.

# The Qur'an says "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).

Are you doing enough good deeds to receive salvation on the Day of Judgment?
Are you doing all you can or are you relaxing in your dedication to Allah?

# The Qur'an says, "O ye who believe! Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, on the day when Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him. Their light will run before them and on their right hands; they will say: Our Lord! Perfect our light for us, and forgive us! Lo! Thou art Able to do all things," (66:8-9). Notice how it says if you are sincere you may receive forgiveness.

How do you know you are sincere enough to be forgiven of Allah?
Does it give you peace to know that even if you are very sincere that at best, you may receive forgiveness?
If you say that you know you are sincere enough in your repentance before Allah, how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?
Is your heart really good enough to muster enough sincerity before a Holy and Righteous God?
If you say yes, I honestly and humbly ask you, "Are you being prideful?"
If you say you are not being prideful, then are you boasting in your sincerity?

hmm and you say that you feel secure??

How do you know you are sincere enough to be forgiven of Allah?

That is the great thing about it a righteous person does not know which good deed will be accepted so he/she will continue to do good for humanity until his death....what is wrong with that. The way to attain paradise is not by YOUR deeds it by the mercy of God that will get you to paradise your deeds will get you closer to God's mercy. How much good deeds...well it is based on your intention (how sincere you are) and if you perform it the correct way (way of the Prophet). You don't want drug dealers, fire worshippers, idol worshippers be in same place as those Prophets, and those who are conscious about their Creator and who asks for guidance.

Does it give you peace to know that even if you are very sincere that at best, you may receive forgiveness?
It gives me peace that I try to be continously concious of my Creator who is THE source of All peace...I am at peace with myself because the religion is the truth. I am at peace that I have submitted myself to my Creator and not money, fame, family, or any created thing.

If you say that you know you are sincere enough in your repentance before Allah, how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?

That is the purpose of REVELATION and Prophets that tell us what God wants. We believe in ALL the revelations reveiled to us including the Torah, injeel, Zabur (Abraham), and final one the Quran. The Quran is the only book revealed to man that is not changed, corrupted, or tempered with. I can prove that easily if you want. The Sunnah (way) of the LAST prophet has not been corrupted. I can prove that as well.

Is your heart really good enough to muster enough sincerity before a Holy and Righteous God?
One of the reasons to live this life is to cleanse our Hearts. "Those who Purify themselves are successful." The corrupt hearts have envy, jealousy, greed..etc... Islam teaches to clean your heart from that so that the human can be at peace b/w himself and the Creator. It is a process and struggle that we Muslims must take.

If you say yes, I honestly and humbly ask you, "Are you being prideful?"
Being "prideful" is an attribute of shaytan and the MAIN reason why he did not submit to Allah's commands by saying that he will not boy down (sign of respect) to Adam because he thought he was better than the new creation of God...Adam.
Faaar from being prideful...God willing.

If you say you are not being prideful, then are you boasting in your sincerity?

I am only boasting about my religion because honestly it is perfect and has no flaws. It is the people who practice it who makes it look bad...Study and you will learn and understand...No need for you to "convert" just expand your knowledge...peace

www.islam-guide.com
www.shareislam.com

[Froogle]

um its the fastest growing religion because its the native religion in the most populated countries in the world.

Yes and Muslims are being killed by the Millions (Afghanistan, Bosnia, Iraq) and it is still the fastest growing religion ...hmmmmm...Let me tell you why..
People are tired of worshipping money, fame, family...They are depressed. They are on all types of medication, harmful drugs, and alcoholism to feel some sort of peace....The only way to attain peace is to understand, know, and worship your Creator because He is the source of ALL peace. So millions are turning to Islam because it gives a simple and clear explanation of God without ANY contradictions or confusion. Everyone can understand. It uses Proof and faith to help people understand their Creator and their PURPOSE in life...Hope that helps you and opens your eyes as well.

[Froogle]

i will answer your questions, but i'm still waiting on your answers.

why did he have to die?

God is infinite.
There is no limit to Him. He is endless.
God is holy.
Holiness is purity. God is incapable of doing anything wrong. Part of the quality of holiness is the inability to do wrong.
God is just.
He always does what is right.
God cannot violate His own righteous declarations, because that would mean God is contradicting Himself.
This justice is according to His nature since it is He is who tells us what is right and wrong.
Therefore, God is infinitely holy and infinitely just
Neither His holiness nor justice can be denied since they are part of His character and God cannot be denied.
We are not infinite and not holy
We are not infinite because we are creations.
We are not holy because we have sinned.
Sin is doing anything against God's Law.
It is God who declares what is right and wrong. He has revealed this to us in the scriptures.
The Law is a reflection of God's character.
God speaks out of what is in His mind and heart. If He says do not lie, it is because it is against God's nature to lie.
God is not speaking without reason or purpose. If He had no reason or purpose, this would mean that God is not trustworthy.
God is trustworthy, therefore God's Law is the standard of perfection, justice, and holiness.
God's Law carries a penalty upon the sinner which is damnation.
Damnation is the act of God where He passes righteous judgment upon a person because of the person's sin against Him.
If breaking God's law did not carry a penalty, then there would be no damnation. But since there is damnation, we can conclude that breaking God's law carries a penalty.
If He did not damn based upon righteousness, then God is doing wrong. Since God cannot do anything wrong, then damnation is righteous.
God is affected by what we do.
Proof of this is found in our prayers. Since God answers our prayers, our prayers have an affect upon God because God is moved to answer.
If our prayers have no affect upon God, then prayer is useless since it accomplishes nothing.
Breaking God's Law, sinning, has a negative effect upon our relationship with God.
God is not injured in a physical way by our sins since God is spirit, perfect, and complete.
But, since damnation exists (because of the justice of God), we can conclude that sin has a negative affect upon the relationship between the sinner and God. If this were not so, there would be no damnation.
Since God is infinite, our offense against Him has an infinite effect.
It is the infinite God we have offended, therefore, the sin results in an infinite offense against God.
A finite person cannot remove an infinite offense against an infinite God.
A finite work cannot remove an infinite offense because the effort of a finite person will always fall short of meeting the justice of an infinite God.
God cannot arbitrarily forgive the sinner without satisfying His infinite justice.
If damnation is righteously given because of justice, so too, forgiveness must be in accordance with justice because both are dealing with sin.
To simply dismiss sin in order to forgive is to deny justice.
If forgiveness is not consistent with God's justice, then God is arbitrary, inconsistent, and unjust.
Therefore, the act of forgiveness also requires an act of justice.
Since it is just that the sinner die and be damned, this justice cannot be ignored.
If it were ignored, then God is not being consistent in His justice.
If it were ignored, then God has no right to damn anyone.
No one is damned who is alive. Only the dead are damned.
Since man cannot earn forgiveness from God through his finite works, it must be God who makes forgiveness possible.
This is so, because there is no one left to make things right, other than God.
Since it is not just to ignore the penalty for sin, and since man cannot satisfy God, there is none left but God to pay for the just penalty of sin.
The sin cannot be ignored because the act of forgiveness also requires and act of justice.
This justice cannot be ignored because God would then be inconsistent.
It is just that the sinner die and suffer judgment.
Death is a punishment of God and damnation follows death.
Since it is just that sin must be dealt with, God must meet that requirement of justice.
This is so, because a finite person cannot please and infinite God's just requirements of holiness and purity.
God must then do what is just in forgiveness of sins or justice cannot be met.
God must then take the place of the sinner and suffer the consequence of the lawful judgment of death upon the sinner.
With justice met, forgiveness can then be rightly given.
This forgiveness, which cannot be earned by man's effort, can only be received from God by man's faith - because there is nothing else he can do.

that is why he died but you also ask how can god or part of god die? most people don't understand the idea of death. his body died but not the soul, he made his body alive again, which is the resurrection.

why did he pray and submit?

HE WAS OUR EXAMPLE!!! he didn't rebuke the man for calling him good. he realized the man didn't know he was God and therefore made him realize that no man can be good.

the easiest way to explain the trinity is water.
h2o is the chemical makeup, but it can be ice(solid), water(liquid), and vapor(gas). it is the same in nature and makeup but different in its presence. and if you look up the triple point of water they can exist at the time in each form.l

now you prove me wrong

Heard all the examples...Water, Egg. Does not make sense at all. It is a pagan idea. Use the Bible to explain to be. The word trinity is not even in the Bible. When asked what is the greatest commandment Jesus is to worship God with all your heart and all your might. That makes perfect sense in Islam. He NEVER said I am God worship me in the Bible...Bible testifies that there is One God.

Jesus is not your example to follow because Jesus peace be upon him was not a prophet for All of humanity only for the Jews and gentiles. The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was the last prophet brought to All of humanity who you have to follow as an example...Look and read at credible sources to understand the Last Prophet.
May Guide God you...Ask your Creator for guidance.

[ICE]

ok cap'n double post. i dont know about you but not knowing my eternal fate doesnt exactly scream secure. you have done nothing but spit out opinions. give me facts that are debatable. dont tell me god is abig pink puffy elephant!! thats not debatable because its opinion. GIVE ME FACTS.

i am glad that you are defending yourself and i enjoy debates but give me something to work with alright? lol

[Cap'n 1time]

Jesus, Muhammad. Both good guys and both prophets of the same god... If you believe that sort of thing. I highly respect the teachings of both... as they basically teach the same thing. that thing is Love in general. Sadly it seems to me that both religions have been perverted by men over time.

Froogle seems to have a pretty good grasp of Islam and I recommend you listen. It isn't fair to ridicule or judge a religion you have relatively no knowledge of. Who better to learn from than someone who practices?

[gdf]

right you are dissing each others' religions and making it sound bad as all your arguments could be against yourself. ice man especially with the whole "native religion" bit. this could be applicable to christianity; it is the biggest religion because it is native to the most people. so what about buddism? or sikhism? are they wrong or does each religion that worships a different god/gods have their own versions of heaven or do you think they are wrong despite that being their native religion? if you were raised as a sikh would you think christianity was wrong? can only certain people go to heaven because they happen to be born in the west or certain parts of asia, africa etc etc...?

btw i think muslims take their religion far more seriously and though i think they are wrong i respect them for pretty much dedicating their whole lives to it. also isn't spitting opinions just what you have done all over three off topic threads. your religions are the same thing, just with different takes on the timeline and who was the most important prophet etc. i agree with 1time that the overall message of the prophets et al was oddly changed by humans.

[MasterMind]

i will answer your questions, but i'm still waiting on your answers.

why did he have to die?

God is infinite.
There is no limit to Him. He is endless.
God is holy.
Holiness is purity. God is incapable of doing anything wrong. Part of the quality of holiness is the inability to do wrong.
God is just.
He always does what is right.
God cannot violate His own righteous declarations, because that would mean God is contradicting Himself.
This justice is according to His nature since it is He is who tells us what is right and wrong.
Therefore, God is infinitely holy and infinitely just
Neither His holiness nor justice can be denied since they are part of His character and God cannot be denied.
We are not infinite and not holy
We are not infinite because we are creations.
We are not holy because we have sinned.
Sin is doing anything against God's Law.
It is God who declares what is right and wrong. He has revealed this to us in the scriptures.
The Law is a reflection of God's character.
God speaks out of what is in His mind and heart. If He says do not lie, it is because it is against God's nature to lie.
God is not speaking without reason or purpose. If He had no reason or purpose, this would mean that God is not trustworthy.
God is trustworthy, therefore God's Law is the standard of perfection, justice, and holiness.
God's Law carries a penalty upon the sinner which is damnation.
Damnation is the act of God where He passes righteous judgment upon a person because of the person's sin against Him.
If breaking God's law did not carry a penalty, then there would be no damnation. But since there is damnation, we can conclude that breaking God's law carries a penalty.
If He did not damn based upon righteousness, then God is doing wrong. Since God cannot do anything wrong, then damnation is righteous.
God is affected by what we do.
Proof of this is found in our prayers. Since God answers our prayers, our prayers have an affect upon God because God is moved to answer.
If our prayers have no affect upon God, then prayer is useless since it accomplishes nothing.
Breaking God's Law, sinning, has a negative effect upon our relationship with God.
God is not injured in a physical way by our sins since God is spirit, perfect, and complete.
But, since damnation exists (because of the justice of God), we can conclude that sin has a negative affect upon the relationship between the sinner and God. If this were not so, there would be no damnation.
Since God is infinite, our offense against Him has an infinite effect.
It is the infinite God we have offended, therefore, the sin results in an infinite offense against God.
A finite person cannot remove an infinite offense against an infinite God.
A finite work cannot remove an infinite offense because the effort of a finite person will always fall short of meeting the justice of an infinite God.
God cannot arbitrarily forgive the sinner without satisfying His infinite justice.
If damnation is righteously given because of justice, so too, forgiveness must be in accordance with justice because both are dealing with sin.
To simply dismiss sin in order to forgive is to deny justice.
If forgiveness is not consistent with God's justice, then God is arbitrary, inconsistent, and unjust.
Therefore, the act of forgiveness also requires an act of justice.
Since it is just that the sinner die and be damned, this justice cannot be ignored.
If it were ignored, then God is not being consistent in His justice.
If it were ignored, then God has no right to damn anyone.
No one is damned who is alive. Only the dead are damned.
Since man cannot earn forgiveness from God through his finite works, it must be God who makes forgiveness possible.
This is so, because there is no one left to make things right, other than God.
Since it is not just to ignore the penalty for sin, and since man cannot satisfy God, there is none left but God to pay for the just penalty of sin.
The sin cannot be ignored because the act of forgiveness also requires and act of justice.
This justice cannot be ignored because God would then be inconsistent.
It is just that the sinner die and suffer judgment.
Death is a punishment of God and damnation follows death.
Since it is just that sin must be dealt with, God must meet that requirement of justice.
This is so, because a finite person cannot please and infinite God's just requirements of holiness and purity.
God must then do what is just in forgiveness of sins or justice cannot be met.
God must then take the place of the sinner and suffer the consequence of the lawful judgment of death upon the sinner.
With justice met, forgiveness can then be rightly given.
This forgiveness, which cannot be earned by man's effort, can only be received from God by man's faith - because there is nothing else he can do.

that is why he died but you also ask how can god or part of god die? most people don't understand the idea of death. his body died but not the soul, he made his body alive again, which is the resurrection.

why did he pray and submit?

HE WAS OUR EXAMPLE!!! he didn't rebuke the man for calling him good. he realized the man didn't know he was God and therefore made him realize that no man can be good.

the easiest way to explain the trinity is water.
h2o is the chemical makeup, but it can be ice(solid), water(liquid), and vapor(gas). it is the same in nature and makeup but different in its presence. and if you look up the triple point of water they can exist at the time in each form.l

now you prove me wrong

First question was not answered. You are attributing something very negative and false to God the Sustainer and Creator of everything that exists. When you say God died then you are saying God is not perfect because dying is something very low of God to perform. God CANNOT do anything. He only does things that is Just and in the his set boundaries. Can God lie? No. Can God use the restroom? (something Jesus performed). No. God does not do humanly things that is what is Quran saying when it says "And nothing is comparable to Him." The way to know God is not to picture Him it is to understand and know the attributes of the Creator and be in awe for those things. For example God is Most merciful so we should have that particular attribute of mercy to his creation. So God is free from Any imperfections including dying and being resurrect in this low discusting earth, then be crusified in front of his creation to "save them from sin." Come on seriously that is really defaming and saying extremely negative things about your Creator. Ask God sincerely to guide you.

Did not answer ..Why he rebuked someone for called him good and then Jesus (ph) said No one is Good except God. He should have said Yes I am good. Or thank the person...WHy

[Accordion]

Jesus, Muhammad. Both good guys and both prophets of the same god... If you believe that sort of thing. I highly respect the teachings of both... as they basically teach the same thing. that thing is Love in general. Sadly it seems to me that both religions have been perverted by men over time.

Froogle seems to have a pretty good grasp of Islam and I recommend you listen. It isn't fair to ridicule or judge a religion you have relatively no knowledge of. Who better to learn from than someone who practices?

sense materialises! trUly!

its a shame some people are too green to speak with respect of others, all this talk of fighting is a little too close to current, larger matters. that those same individuals insist they are different than their peers oblivious to there immature actions and elitist comments. if religion is to teach, then it seems to have failed many.

[ICE]

ok guy stop making it sound like we're arguing. we're not. no ones angry or anything. we are discussing the differences in islam and christianity and i dont appreciate everyone attacking me and/or the resident muslims.

as for what if i were raised some other religon it would be no different than now. nativity means nothing to someone seeking the truth. i would have still found christianity.

as for god cant die.. jesus's BODY died. not jesus/ and or god.

[SSaxdude]

I have heard the word from the true creator: the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER! Become enlightened http://www.venganza.org/

[ICE]

ok so jesus was born of a virgin. he lived a perfect sinless life and performed miracles. islam agrees no? then he was crucified. that is WIDELY accepted by even atheists. jesus was crucified however islam denies that. after 3 days he resurrected and 40 days later he ascended. in those 40 days he appeared to 515 people, some believers some not.

your perception of death is clearly wrong. jesus's body died and after 3 days his spirit resurrected his body. now as for G-d not being able to use the bathroom and stuff like that... well thats just stupid. who ever said G-d couldnt pee? nothing is comparable to him? we were made in HIS IMAGE. come on now gimme something a little harder eh?

[LilSwish722]

Ok guys. This is an interesting statement I will make. Jesus was a prophet according to Islam. Also, according to Islam, Jesus is NOT the son of God. Plus prophets cannot lie...yet Jesus claimed to be the son of God...did he lie?

[eazy-e]

The three faiths, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as "Tawhid" in Islam, this concept of Oneness of God was stressed by Moses (pbuh) in the Biblical passage Known as the "Shema," or the Jewish creed of faith:

"Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord"

Deuteronomy 6:4

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus (pbuh) when he said

"...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord."

Mark 12:29

Muhammad (pbuh) came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again:

"And your God is One God: there is no god but He"

The noble Qur'an, al-Bakarah(2):163

[ICE]

yes He does quote He in one. one in nature though.
he Trinity is defined as one God who exists in three eternal, simultaneous, and distinct persons known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Each is divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the Godhead. Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is. Is this confusing? YES! but cults try to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. Jeremiah 31:34 “34 “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.”

[tactful mcbee]

First question was not answered. You are attributing something very negative and false to God the Sustainer and Creator of everything that exists. When you say God died then you are saying God is not perfect because dying is something very low of God to perform. God CANNOT do anything. He only does things that is Just and in the his set boundaries. Can God lie? No. Can God use the restroom? (something Jesus performed). No. God does not do humanly things that is what is Quran saying when it says "And nothing is comparable to Him." The way to know God is not to picture Him it is to understand and know the attributes of the Creator and be in awe for those things. For example God is Most merciful so we should have that particular attribute of mercy to his creation. So God is free from Any imperfections including dying and being resurrect in this low discusting earth, then be crusified in front of his creation to "save them from sin." Come on seriously that is really defaming and saying extremely negative things about your Creator. Ask God sincerely to guide you.

Did not answer ..Why he rebuked someone for called him good and then Jesus (ph) said No one is Good except God. He should have said Yes I am good. Or thank the person...WHy

phillipians 2 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

jesus did not give simple answers because he fullfilled prophesy by speaking in parables. Matthew 13:9-11 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

[extreemiL]

christianity and it's followers is the source of all evil.. srsly

[ICE]

dont flame or leave.

[Accordion]

there's a man in brum centre who screams of jesus and preaches to those who walk by in the monotony of life, not paying any attention simply continuing their cycles passed down to them by fathers past; the man returns on thursday, every week at 11am and returns to them the speech of last.

__________
you may continue mr ice

[LilSwish722]

NO ANSWERED MY QUESTION lol. If Jesus was a prophet of God according to Islam, and Muslims think that prophets can't lie. Jesus claimed to be the song of God, but Muslims don't believe this, so did Jesus lie?

[Accordion]

NO ANSWERED MY QUESTION lol. If Jesus was a prophet of God according to Islam, and Muslims think that prophets can't lie. Jesus claimed to be the song of God, but Muslims don't believe this, so did Jesus lie?

where were you?

[ICE]

there's a man in brum centre who screams of jesus and preaches to those who walk by in the monotony of life, not paying any attention simply continuing their cycles passed down to them by fathers past; the man returns on thursday, every week at 11am and returns to them the speech of last.

__________
you may continue mr ice

your point being????? that some people like to stand outside and preach?

[MasterMind]

NO ANSWERED MY QUESTION lol. If Jesus was a prophet of God according to Islam, and Muslims think that prophets can't lie. Jesus claimed to be the song of God, but Muslims don't believe this, so did Jesus lie?

You said Jesus is a Prophet in teachings of Islam...Yes. Jesus cannot Lie..Yes. But the people who corrupted the Bible and text and created different versions of Bible and they can Lie.

Let me quote the Bible.

Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God.

"And the devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, You are Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak; for they knew that he was Christ (Cristos = chosen one)."

and again "He [Jesus] said unto them [the disciples], But what do you say that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

So if Jesus the sone of God it says that Seth was son of Adam and he (Seth) was son of God
"Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"

The word trinity is not even in the Bible..It was MAN made idea.
The Bible statement "Hear Oh Isreal your Lord is One Lord." makes more sense to All including ME. That is why I chose Islam.

Even the Bible says "No ONE has SEEN God" ...How simple is that. True!!

Doesn't Jesus say in the Bible the Father is GREATER than I?

Doesn't Jesus say the Father has SENT me? If he was God or part of God he should have said I sent myself

Doesnt Jesus say in the Bible "My Father is greater than I"? Father means God in his time.

Didn't Jesus rebuke someone for calling him good and said He is not good there is one Good except God?

When stated in the Bible Jesus said "I and the Father are one." It is saying we are in agreement. For example if you say I don't want people to smoke in bathrooms...then I say me and you the same. That means you and I are in agreement.
Or an organization stands up for a cause they agree on they say lets stand up as ONE. God sent Jesus to preach the religion of monotheism and to worship one Creator.

I rest my case. I hope God guides those who are lost. I am not offended and I hope I did not offend anyone

Also...
Adam the First man our Father was made from his own image not from the image of God. The Quran says he was made from his own (Adam) image. Unique image. God's physical attributes are not like humans...meaning God has hands and feet and face but it is nothing like our hands, feet, or face.

[ICE]

You said Jesus is a Prophet in teachings of Islam...Yes. Jesus cannot Lie..Yes. But the people who corrupted the Bible and text and created different versions of Bible and they can Lie.

i am so sick of hearing that . the bible is not corrupted. if you disagree GIVE ME PROOF. i mean come on! there are different versions of the bible therefore its corrupt? wha? some versions may be a bit screwy but no one is forcing you to use those are they? the quaran is just as old as the bible so i could just as easily say that its corrupt. evidently no one needs any proof for the things they say around here...

as for jesus not claiming to be god-- No, Jesus never said the exact three words, "I am God". But Jesus also never said the exact four words, "I am a prophet" or the exact four words "I am a man," but we know he was both a prophet and a man. Jesus may not have said the exact sentence "I am God" but he did claim the divine name for himself (Exo. 3:14 with John 8:58) and he also received worship (Matt. 2:2; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38).
When Moses was up at the Mount speaking to God, Moses asked God what his name was. God said, "I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’” (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Right after this the Jews pick up stones to throw at him. Later, in John 10:30-33 Jesus claimed to be one with the Father and the Jews wanted to stone him again because they said to Jesus, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God." Jesus had claimed the divine name for his own in the Jews wanted to kill him for it. Therefore, from Jesus' own mouth we see that he was claiming to be God.

The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; that is, the Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. Each is fully God in nature. Each person is not a god in itself. Instead, the totality of all three persons comprises the one God. There are not three gods, but one. We believe there are no partners with God because we believe there is only one God in all existence.

At first, some may look at this teaching and be confused by it. How can God be three persons in one God? This is a good question because it is a bit difficult to grasp. But, that is what we would expect isn't it, when we encounter God? Would we not expect to find some things about God's Infinite nature a bit beyond our comprehension? This is not unreasonable. However, we must not make the mistake of saying something as ridiculous as, "It doesn't make sense. Therefore it is true."

the father, son, and holy spirit are all called god here respectively-- Phil. 1:2 John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9 Acts 5:3-4

each are called creater-- Isaiah 64:8; 44:24 John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17 Job 33:4; 26:13

each all knowing-- 1 John 3:20 John 16:30; 21:17 1 Cor. 2:10-11

EDIT: um as for all that "didnt jesus say blah blah blah" lol um the trinity is 3 separate beings existing as one. him saying my father is greater than i and what-not makes perfect sense when you understand the concept of the trinity which you clearly do not.
I REST MY CASE lol.

[tactful mcbee]

You said Jesus is a Prophet in teachings of Islam...Yes. Jesus cannot Lie..Yes. But the people who corrupted the Bible and text and created different versions of Bible and they can Lie.

Let me quote the Bible.

Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God.

"And the devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, You are Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak; for they knew that he was Christ (Cristos = chosen one)."

and again "He [Jesus] said unto them [the disciples], But what do you say that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

So if Jesus the sone of God it says that Seth was son of Adam and he (Seth) was son of God
"Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"

The word trinity is not even in the Bible..It was MAN made idea.
The Bible statement "Hear Oh Isreal your Lord is One Lord." makes more sense to All including ME. That is why I chose Islam.

Even the Bible says "No ONE has SEEN God" ...How simple is that. True!!

Doesn't Jesus say in the Bible the Father is GREATER than I?

Doesn't Jesus say the Father has SENT me? If he was God or part of God he should have said I sent myself

Doesnt Jesus say in the Bible "My Father is greater than I"? Father means God in his time.

Didn't Jesus rebuke someone for calling him good and said He is not good there is one Good except God?

When stated in the Bible Jesus said "I and the Father are one." It is saying we are in agreement. For example if you say I don't want people to smoke in bathrooms...then I say me and you the same. That means you and I are in agreement.
Or an organization stands up for a cause they agree on they say lets stand up as ONE. God sent Jesus to preach the religion of monotheism and to worship one Creator.

I rest my case. I hope God guides those who are lost. I am not offended and I hope I did not offend anyone

Also...
Adam the First man our Father was made from his own image not from the image of God. The Quran says he was made from his own (Adam) image. Unique image. God's physical attributes are not like humans...meaning God has hands and feet and face but it is nothing like our hands, feet, or face.
At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Exodus 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty, and at least Moses saw God, not in a vision or dream, as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible--which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.

greater than i quote is an easy one to answer. greater (meizon in greek) is a quantitive term descriptive of postion. but in hebrews jesus is said to be better (kreitton in greek) than the angels. better is a qualitative term desriptive of nature. example the president is greater than i am in position but not better in nature. jesus being in the flesh was in a lower position than the father.

you say the bible is corrupt, but that contridicts your own scriptures sura 4:47 & 54, 5:44-49, 10:95. the muslim may charge that jews and christians have mistranslated the bible, but the quran says that they only misinterpret and disbelieve it (sura 3:70-71). according to the quran, only jews have mistranslated scripture (sura 2:75-79; 4:46). textually, all variations of the quran were destroyed by caliph uthman (ruled 646-656) and his version is the only version in existence.

[ICE]

tactful!! high five!!!! *raises hand in anticipation*

[tactful mcbee]

i am not trying to attack muslims. the muslim zeal for god is admorable, but i believe you have been decieved and i'm trying to show you some of the evidence.

unlike the quran, the bible has fulfilled prophesies inorder to prove it is legit. Deuteronomy 5:1 (used by muslims!!!sura 61:6) said "and there arose not a prophet since in isreal like moses, whom the Lord knew face to face. muslims say this is muhammad, but muhammad had the quran revealed to him by the angel gabriel, not directly by God; and muhammad claims to be a descendant of ishmael not isreal.

jesus is the only prophet (my God) that fulfills this.

[MasterMind]

i am so sick of hearing that . the bible is not corrupted. if you disagree GIVE ME PROOF. i mean come on! there are different versions of the bible therefore its corrupt? wha? some versions may be a bit screwy but no one is forcing you to use those are they? the quaran is just as old as the bible so i could just as easily say that its corrupt. evidently no one needs any proof for the things they say around here...


I REST MY CASE lol.

Your OWN scholars say that the Bible has been changed from the original..If you don't believe me
Read the preface of King James Version of the Bible.
PREFACE page iii and iv:

Some parts reads:
""The King James Version has with good reason been termed 'the noblest monument of English prose.' Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration of 'its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of express... "

"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for a revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bibles was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901."

"Sometimes it is evident that the text has suffered in transmission, but none of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration. Here we can only follow the best judgment of competent scholars as to the most probable reconstruction of the original text."

"Many difficulties and obscurities, of course, remain."

I can type more because it is right in my face but I will not. I will let you read it and make your conclusions about the changed Bible.

As far as contradictions..There are so many for example just to mention a few contradictions the trinity:

Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God.
Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.
Isaiah 45:1 - "Anointed" does not mean "God".
Matthew 14:23, 19:13, 26:39, 27:46, 26:42-44 - Jesus prayed.
Matthew 24:36 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God had different wills.
Matthew 28:18 - All power was given to Jesus.
Mark 1:35, 6:46, 14:35-36 - Jesus prayed.
Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19 - Jesus denied divinity.Mark 12:28-29 - God is one.
Mark 13:32 - Jesus was not all-knowing.

It may seem that I am putting down your religion but I am only telling you the alternative is the true religion. If you take a Quran from different countries and/or continents you will see all are the same ...meaning in Arabic (original text) and no versions. The supposid contradictions you mentioned can be easily explained but I don't want to waste much more of my time because I don't think you are observing Islam objectively...You have to accept something you have is false before you begin to accept a truth. Or you can just not lie about a religion and say stop saying it has contradictions when it does not... If I were you I would study religions of the world objectively.

Oh and "Ice Man" ...We all know that in the world of MMA no one is unbeatable and styles makes fighsts...So there will be someone who will show Chuck what is up...I know who can beat him easily.

[ICE]

sura 16:61 "if god were to take mankind to task for their wrongoing, he would not leave here one living creature"

thought good works got you to heaven?

the quran cites its elegance as evidence for its inspiration in sura 17:88 -"If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."

the quran is right because its well written? interesting theory..

[tactful mcbee]

Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God.
read my past post

Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.
if jesus is god...no problem there

Isaiah 45:1 - "Anointed" does not mean "God".
emanuel means god with us

Matthew 14:23, 19:13, 26:39, 27:46, 26:42-44 - Jesus prayed.
he was our perfect example of how to make it in a ungodly world. thus he prayed for our example

Matthew 24:36 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
jesus gave up his divine power in order to become a perfect sacrifice. see phillipians 2

Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God had different wills.
Jesus did not ask to be killed. As a man, he did not want to go through the torturous ordeal of the crucifixion. What man would desire such a horrible death? The fact that Jesus did not want to go through it is proof enough that he was human. But it does not mean that he was not divine.

Matthew 28:18 - All power was given to Jesus.
paul explains in phillipians jesus gave up his power when he became man, but after that his power was restored. see phillipians 2
Mark 1:35, 6:46, 14:35-36 - Jesus prayed.
see above

Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19 - Jesus denied
divinity.
John 8:24,M “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (the word "he" is not in the original greek). John 8:58, " Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Those of the verses were Jesus claims divinity. You can call him a liar if you want. But I believe him

Mark 12:28-29 - God is one.
see definition of trinity. NOT TRIAD!!Basic Christian theology teaches that Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. In Heb. 2:9 that Jesus was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ." Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time.


Mark 13:32 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
see phillipians 2

by the way, translations in themselves are corrupt. thats why i study the biblia hebraica leningradensia( the hebrew bible)

[ICE]

Your OWN scholars say that the Bible has been changed from the original..If you don't believe me
Read the preface of King James Version of the Bible.
PREFACE page iii and iv:

are you saying that not one word on the quran is different than the original? .also what tactful said


"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for a revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bibles was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901." after this "revision" did any of the core beliefs of christianity change? NO. i dont know who your quoting but they are trying to make a trivial revision sound like they re-wrote the bible. and/or what tactful said.


Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God.
Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.
Isaiah 45:1 - "Anointed" does not mean "God".
Matthew 14:23, 19:13, 26:39, 27:46, 26:42-44 - Jesus prayed.
Matthew 24:36 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God had different wills.
Matthew 28:18 - All power was given to Jesus.
Mark 1:35, 6:46, 14:35-36 - Jesus prayed.
Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19 - Jesus denied divinity.Mark 12:28-29 - God is one.
Mark 13:32 - Jesus was not all-knowing.

most of those can be immediately explained through a basic knowledge of the trinity. and the other one doesnt make sense at all. you just copied and pasted those with out checking them lol. i mean it says Do not praise and worship images. thats a core belief for us. thats what the verse confirms. nothing contradicts anything there or in any of the others.

fyi The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

* TORAH - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).
* PSALMS - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
* GOSPEL - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

so the quran says believe in the bible but you say you dont? hmm intersting..